71 replies to this topic

[Arius]

Hi!

I used to play MWO a few months ago, stopped due to various reasons. I remember enjoying the game back then.

I tried to play again these days, but my experience was awful.

I get shot at without even detecting the enemy from ranges where it seems impossible to be spotted.

Even if I am in a heavy mech, I usually last 10 seconds before I get killed when I am fighting 1v1.

Next thing I tried using my LRM Cat, since I figured this game is all about hiding behind a rock now. LRMs didn't do damage, next thing I know I peek around a corner, boom, dead...

Is there some new kind of "kill-all" build? Are the armour and structure upgrades useless now?

I am quite frustrated....

regards,

[Takony]

A time traveler from the good old brawler Fastlas times. Welcome to the new metagame. You will like 3PV and no separate ques.
/sarcasm off
Everything what could go wrong, just did. Only real success was the HUD bug fix.

[qki]

Or, if you want a truthful statement:

LRMs are no longer the "1 button kill all" weapon they used to be at one point.
You now have 12 opponents, and many players caught on that long range weapons are top of the food chain.

It is still very playable, just takes a little effort.
10 seconds is an overstatement for 1v1 - that would imply dying in 3 shots, since most things have a 3-second cycle rate.


In other words: play better. It makes a huge difference.

[Straylight]

qki, on 31 August 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

LRMs are no longer the "1 button kill all" weapon they used to be at one point.
You now have 12 opponents, and many players caught on that long range weapons are top of the food chain.

In particular, 2x ERPPC + 1 Gauss Rifle seems to be a popular sniper build these days. If you're getting dropped as soon as you pop out of cover, that means you aren't being as stealthy as you think you are. Probably, you're silhouetting yourself against open sky ('mechs do not look like rocks, except on Tourmaline), and more critically you're probably being far too predictable. For example, on Canyon, somebody in a sniper Cataphract WILL be watching Theta sometime in the first 45 seconds of the game. If you walk blithely up to that little plateau and stick your head out, you WILL get it shot off.

Sniper builds are popular right now, but that's because ( a ) HSR and the scoring system has caused a metagame shift toward slow, high-alpha Heavies and Assaults, and ( b ) most people are terrible pilots. In this case (a) exists because of ( b ), too: slow, high-alpha Heavies and Assaults are easy to play and easy to score with. Press Z twice, hold W, shoot at the little red triangle until it goes away. Very "W+M1", as TF2 players would say.

(If you're detecting some derision here, that's because I think this playstyle is laughably, childishly simplistic and boring and anyone who can't come up with a better idea needs to go back to the sibko until they've washed all the canister fluid from behind their ears. That said, I do greatly enjoy the 6-kill matches where my 35-ton Jenner takes down 300+ tons of people who have no idea how to shoot a moving target or maneuver in terrain.)

On the other end of the spectrum, though, is a strong shift toward lightning-quick brawler Mediums (KTOs and CN9-Ds in particular) that I've noticed in the past few weeks: with 12v12 and the slowing scoring, all of a sudden a 'mech that can reliably scare off enemy Lights before they get too deep into a capture is useful. In response to that, the few Light pilots that exist right now (they haven't got the firepower to hang with the sniper meta in a straight fight, so they're deemed "useless") have themselves shifted toward precision damage builds with paired ERLLs or ERPPCs, or gone to max-engine, max-armor, ML- and MPL-spam brawler builds to be able to hang with the Mediums they're up against.

The days of the Mighty Glacier AS7-D; AC40 Cats, Catas and Jaegers, and other designs with huge guns and tiny engines has passed. Those builds can be still be used (I got crushed by an oldschool Splattercat the other day, that was fun), but they're tricky, gimmicky, situational builds that require incredible finesse and a very rapid OODA loop to play... which is as it should be, if you ask me.

These days what I'm finding works and bucks the Misermets-D-DC trend is to treat 'mech configs like I treat ship fitting in EVE: build your tank first, then worry about offense. I'll start my design from max XL engine, max armor, Endo, DHS, AMS, BAP and ECM, then see what I've got left for weapons, and drop equipment as necessary. Roughly, I'll drop stuff in this order: AMS, BAP, armor, engine size, everything else.

qki, on 31 August 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

10 seconds is an overstatement for 1v1 - that would imply dying in 3 shots, since most things have a 3-second cycle rate.

Heh, I dunno... I've lost fights a lot quicker than that. Sometimes you walk around a corner straight into a Misery's crosshair, is all I'm saying.

qki, on 31 August 2013 - 05:03 AM, said:

In other words: play better. It makes a huge difference.

So say we frakkin' all.

The incredible amount of whining over game balance and features and blah blah blah that happens on these forums (it was such a nice place during closed beta, too... wistful sigh) unilaterally fails to address the key point: if foo, bar, and baz all equipped on the same chassis is overpowered and there's not a technical issue in play, then it's not overpowered, you're just not good enough.

Play more, suck less, and savor the sweet, sweet tears of all the scrubs who never learned to lead their shots.

Edited by Straylight, 31 August 2013 - 09:03 AM.

[scJazz]

Straylight, on 31 August 2013 - 09:01 AM, said:

The days of the Mighty Glacier AS7-D; AC40 Cats, Catas and Jaegers, and other designs with huge guns and tiny engines has passed. Those builds can be still be used (I got crushed by an oldschool Splattercat the other day, that was fun), but they're tricky, gimmicky, situational builds that require incredible finesse and a very rapid OODA loop to play... which is as it should be, if you ask me.

+1 interwebz to you sir for OODA reference!

[Rhyshaelkan]

Watch twitch.tv streams. See what works, see what does not. Weapons, methods of play. The game has not changed, you still point and shoot. You just need to educate yourself on how to point and shoot in todays MWO.

[Redshift2k5]

Blob tActics and focus-fire are predominant, magnified by even larger teams featuring even larger blobs.

A small mistake can put you in the sights of a large number of enemies who, obviously, are all going to shoot you all at on e if you give them the opportunity to do so.

Stick to your team, learn commonly used parts of each map so you know where to expectt an enemy blob.

A siesmic module will help you avoid turning around a corner and walking into too many enemies. Think about engagement range, bringing a pure brawler is difficult as the maps get bigger. Look at modern mech builds for your current chassis. Pay attention to where sniper fire is coming from. Don't be a Rambo.

[Tolkien]

The best answer I can give you is to refer you to these articles online. They and their comments sections review the state of play.

Penny arcade report[color=#959595] The hardcore mechwarrior online community is in open revolt[/color]
GameFront[color=#959595] A cautionary tale: The rage of the mechwarrior online community[/color]
Starburst Magazine[color=#959595] Mechwarrior Online faces widespread accusations of false advertising[/color]
The Mittani[color=#959595] MWO A failure to communicate[/color]
Loaded Dice[color=#959595] What happened to mechwarrior online? [/color]

[BrianLocke]

LRMs work, they just are unlikely to get the kills all by themselves. If you run an LRM build, keep in mind your role on the battlefield is as support for the rest of your team. Soften the enemy up, do lots of damage, let the guys in the Jenners get the kills (or the blackjacks or Jaggers etc). Don't stay in front, keep behind the lines. If you are not running an LRM build then speed is your friend. Others can give you getter advice there.

[Cybermech]

Ye I wouldn't bother with most links tolken pointed out.
Some amount of lies in those.
Redshift is right as usual

[Tolkien]

Cybermech, on 31 August 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Ye I wouldn't bother with most links tolken pointed out.
Some amount of lies in those.
Redshift is right as usual

Ouch, would you point out one or two of the lies?

edit: (I think the articles are mostly accurate since they largely agree with my experiences here since last June. If there are falsehoods in there I want to be able to warn people about them.)

Edited by Tolkien, 31 August 2013 - 10:00 AM.

[Tarzilman]

Yep, Tolkien is one of those Black Knights or how I like to say "Sabotage Crew". I've never seen such a sad bunch of crying men or men who talk bad about a f2p game like here (and I've played many of those gakes and have been in many forums), though the game works pretty fine and becomes more and more balanced with every patch.
Play some days and you'll get a feeling and finally find your way back in the game. 3pv is new, gives you some spotting advandages. Can be very useful in clanwars, when you play with a well established team, but you won't recognize these advantages in public games. At least everybody can use it and so it's no kind of cheat or something forbidden to use, though you'll get the feeling it is, when you read through the forums

Now watch how pissed off ppl can become, when you write them equal things as you have to read every day. Things like "white knight" or "it's your positibe position that'll make pgi going on like this" yadda yadda. Going on like this? You mean balancing the game effectively? Yeah well, please pgi go on like this.
Now don't even start flaming on me, I'm sick off this childish ********, that's going on here.

#saveconstructivepostinginmwoforums

[BoPop]

the game is getting better. you're dying because your getting hit by dual gauss, dual erppc and combos of those two weapons. LOTS of players don't get tired of that build because it is still so powerful and I heard there are still some ideas on the table of how to fix "the meta" having said that, I simply want to be able to have a lobby system or something that lets us play with 5,6,7,8,9,10, 11 players. this 4 man or 12 man only stuff is pretty lame and hurting the game more than anything I can think of frankly. other than that there are just a lot of but hurt dudes over this 3rd person perspective. same stuff different day, overly vocal minority trying to make it sound like the majority is upset over something.

[Tolkien]

Tarzilman, on 31 August 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

Yep, Tolkien is one of those Black Knights or how I like to say "Sabotage Crew". I've never seen such a sad bunch of crying men or men who talk bad about a f2p game like here (and I've played many of those gakes and have been in many forums), though the game works pretty fine and becomes more and more balanced with every patch.
Play some days and you'll get a feeling and finally find your way back in the game. 3pv is new, gives you some spotting advandages. Can be very useful in clanwars, when you play with a well established team, but you won't recognize these advantages in public games. At least everybody can use it and so it's no kind of cheat or something forbidden to use, though you'll get the feeling it is, when you read through the forums

Now watch how pissed off ppl can become, when you write them equal things as you have to read every day. Things like "white knight" or "it's your positibe position that'll make pgi going on like this" yadda yadda. Going on like this? You mean balancing the game effectively? Yeah well, please pgi go on like this.
Now don't even start flaming on me, I'm sick off this childish ********, that's going on here.

#saveconstructivepostinginmwoforums

Hi Tarzilman,

Please understand that I am not trying to flame anyone, I'm just trying to make sure people know what people can expect in terms of feature delivery and rate of progress before they spend their money around here. I have been in the game since closed beta in June 2012, so I have been here 1 year longer than you (2 months).

Those articles cover many of the issues that have created the "bitter vets" or as you call me "black knight/sabotage crew". Please be aware that up until the 3pv patch I was a 'white knight' in the sense of still trying to get friends into the game. Now not so much.

In those articles I posted you'll see that it's not just 3pv that is a problem, it's just that 3pv is the most recent and most egregious example of the devs explicitly going back on a statement to the community about what would be in the game. If you are spending your money based on what the game 'will be' this is a problem since it now means you can't trust any specific feature the devs promise will/won't be in will actually make it in.

Examples of other letdowns to founders.

1) Consumables won't be in (consumables are in and they had a real money advantage for coolshot when it first came out)
2) Clans would show up when they are supposed to on the calendar (June). Now the calendar is frozen and the clans are not in.
3) Community warfare will be in within 90 days of open beta (November). So we are several months late on this.
4) Still can't make a lobby to play against friends (coming with UI2.0?)
5) Still no in game voice to help the pugs not get rolled over.

I know I sound bitter, but I think it's with good reason. I would not have bought a founders pack to fund a new mechwarrior game if it had been stated to have 3pv in it, so I feel quite bait and switched.

[Royalewithcheese]

The new meta:



Those builds are, respectively:

The Highlander sniper - runs Gauss or 2 UAC/5, plus 2-3 PPC. Can use jumpjets to get clear shots.
The Stalker sniper - runs some combination of PPC/Large Laser/Gauss Rifle. This image was made back when the 4xPPC Stalker was a thing - it's much less of a thing now, but Stalkers with some combination of long-range firepower are still a common sight in pugs. Uses high arm mounts to get clear shots, very hard to kill from the front in typical Stalker fashion.
The Cataphract 3D sniper - generally runs 2 PPC and 1 Gauss, although I've seen some frightening ones that swap out the Gauss for 2 UAC/5. Can use jumpjets to get clear shots.

I'd advise getting something that can direct-fire snipe and using a lot of cover. Also, it's 12v12 now, so focus-fire is that much more powerful.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 31 August 2013 - 10:43 AM.

[Void Angel]

Arius, on 31 August 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Hi!

I used to play MWO a few months ago, stopped due to various reasons. I remember enjoying the game back then.

I tried to play again these days, but my experience was awful.

I get shot at without even detecting the enemy from ranges where it seems impossible to be spotted.

Even if I am in a heavy mech, I usually last 10 seconds before I get killed when I am fighting 1v1.

Next thing I tried using my LRM Cat, since I figured this game is all about hiding behind a rock now. LRMs didn't do damage, next thing I know I peek around a corner, boom, dead...

Is there some new kind of "kill-all" build? Are the armour and structure upgrades useless now?

I am quite frustrated....

regards,

The new meta (which is not as bad as it has been, and getting better) makes it difficult to transition from some builds. Really, we all went through what you're dealing with - it started with Host State Rewind. (ER)PPCs got a boost a little prior to HSR; PGI wasn't sure exactly when the HSR fixes would be solved, and tried to balance the weapon system (since nobody used ERPPCs around this time.) The problem was that HSR had a larger impact than expected on the effectiveness of (ER)PPCs, Gauss Rifles, and (to a lesser extent) AC/20s. Combined with the release of the Hidelander, the pinpoint-alpha meta that you still see today simply exploded - you should pardon the pun.

This had a major impact on the shape of the battlefield, because sniping builds generally beat LRMs. To make matters worse, the ERPPC/Gauss combo was so prevalent that any brawlers who tried to fight the SniparWarriors would get crushed when they tried to engage - because in order to dig a Snipar out of his coward hole, you had to expose yourself to five other Snipars who were likewise hiding behind rocks. This was not conducive to a favorable exchange, especially since most of your team would be SniparWarriors as well. Part of this was the Thomas Theorem at work - since everyone was bringing sniping builds, those were the only builds they saw working. But it was driven by the dominance of the (ER)PPC as an all-range powerhouse - a place it still occupies today.

However, it's not as though PGI hasn't noticed and tried to adjust weapon balance - with some success. Weapon balance is still their biggest priority coming up on launch, and we've seen changes to multiple weapon systems in the last few patches. Likely much of what you're butting your head against is just cognitive dissonance between your concept of "how to play well," and the changed shape of the battlefield. As one poster above already said, just keep playing and experimenting. Be aware that if you expose yourself early, there is likely going to be half again the incoming fire, and that the weapon mix people choose is still slanted toward long-range, high-alpha weapons - and you'll be fine.

Edit: PS. As anyone with basic English literacy may have noticed, I hate the Highlander. This is not because I feel the 'mech is overpowered, or even because it is the poster child for the jump-sniping Poptart. The reason I hate to see Highlanders (especially if they're the only assaults) because, rather than using their mobility to make intelligent tactical decisions and move to support the team, most Highlanders insist on doing nothing but hiding until the battle has really already been won. They're taking up an Assault slot, but doing the job of a Cataphract 3D poptart. Sure, there's a few who will actually fire and maneuver, but most of them find a building and camp behind it until most of the enemy is eliminated - or the enemy comes to dig them out of their coward hole. Highlander poptarts do often put out a lot of damage - but they often do it by making other people take the damage for them, then mopping up after the teammates they sacrificed are dead.

Edited by Void Angel, 31 August 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Tarzilman]

Tolkien, on 31 August 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Hi Tarzilman,

Please understand that I am not trying to flame anyone, I'm just trying to make sure people know what people can expect in terms of feature delivery and rate of progress before they spend their money around here. I have been in the game since closed beta in June 2012, so I have been here 1 year longer than you (2 months).

Those articles cover many of the issues that have created the "bitter vets" or as you call me "black knight/sabotage crew". Please be aware that up until the 3pv patch I was a 'white knight' in the sense of still trying to get friends into the game. Now not so much.

In those articles I posted you'll see that it's not just 3pv that is a problem, it's just that 3pv is the most recent and most egregious example of the devs explicitly going back on a statement to the community about what would be in the game. If you are spending your money based on what the game 'will be' this is a problem since it now means you can't trust any specific feature the devs promise will/won't be in will actually make it in.

Examples of other letdowns to founders.

1) Consumables won't be in (consumables are in and they had a real money advantage for coolshot when it first came out)
2) Clans would show up when they are supposed to on the calendar (June). Now the calendar is frozen and the clans are not in.
3) Community warfare will be in within 90 days of open beta (November). So we are several months late on this.
4) Still can't make a lobby to play against friends (coming with UI2.0?)
5) Still no in game voice to help the pugs not get rolled over.

I know I sound bitter, but I think it's with good reason. I would not have bought a founders pack to fund a new mechwarrior game if it had been stated to have 3pv in it, so I feel quite bait and switched.

I see. Also I saw all your points before you explained them to me in a surprisingly factual way. If everybody of your "hate-buddies" would have shown so much a calm and patient kind of writing, I wouldn't be so biased against the critics.
Yes, I'm just playing for about two months and therefore I am not so handicapped and have a different point of view. But I've played many games where balancing matters and MWO is the first game where I'm not getting so frustrated after ten matches like I got in other games. The balancing is right, though many of you "veterans" got disappointed about decisions like heat penalty.

[Void Angel]

Tolkien, on 31 August 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

1) Consumables won't be in (consumables are in and they had a real money advantage for coolshot when it first came out)

That coolshot advantage lasted for all of what? One patch cycle? And it was changed because of player responses to that advantage, which demonstrates that PGI does listen to the player base. They announced a change in that mechanic within days of its original debut.

[Rascula]

Ive been playing since November and I honestly like (most) of the changes that PGI have been putting in, sure the meta alters over time, but people adept to the new play style and move on. Its not perfect at the moment but its a much better game than it has been for most of this year <remember LRM'apocalypse and PPC'ageddon?....Well alright its still PPC'ageddon but you get what I mean>
At the end of the day its going to change and adapt at the games designers whims and while this wont please all the people all the time you just have to trust PGI to get it right, that wont always happen in one patch as they're working to an overall strategy but looking at the state of the game now to how it was almost a year ago I feel its working.

Just my opinion, In case y'all didnt get that!

[Kattspya]

Cybermech, on 31 August 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Ye I wouldn't bother with most links tolken pointed out.
Some amount of lies in those.
Redshift is right as usual

Can you specify, what are the lies and from whom? I have read half of those articles and found no lies.

Or perhaps you are talking about the dev statement "Players will never be forced to use or play against other players using 3rd person?"

EDIT: misplaced comma. Probably should be a semi colon - grammar is hard

Edited by Kattspya, 31 August 2013 - 11:58 AM.