10 replies to this topic

[Enderman]

This is the first game I've seen which has long-range weapons, and limits you to only x3 zoom.

Lets face it, on some maps you can barely distinguish the enemies from the terrain, and having to do so in normal vision mode (because thermal/night don't work at 700-800m or further) at x3 zoom is an experience below average.

Is there any reason to this?

Or is this simply another "fix the symptom instead of the disease" answer to perfect weapon convergence and 100% weapon accuracy, along with Ghost Heat system? Honestly, I would have preferred less acuurate weapons, but with an ability to actually see where you are aiming.

Adv. zoom module does not count, because of its terrble image quality, and x4 is still not enough when trying to snipe at 1200-1500m, where moving a mouse less than a millimeter currently results in your shots travelling 30m to the side.

Edited by Enderman, 31 August 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[qki]

change mouse sensitivity. You know - with the little button on top that changes your mouse dpi.

[scJazz]

Enderman, on 31 August 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

This is the first game I've seen which has long-range weapons, and limits you to only x3 zoom.

Is there any reason to this?

Or is this simply another "fix the symptom instead of the disease" answer to perfect weapon convergence and 100% weapon accuracy, along with Ghost Heat system? Honestly, I would have preferred less acuurate weapons, but with an ability to actually see where you are aiming.

There is a hell of a lot of complexity behind this subject. So much that I could write a very very long WOT. I'm not going to do that though.

Reasons behind Serious Zoom and your underlying comments regarding Convergence...
1 ) MWO runs Server Authoritative architecture MMO
2 ) With the exception of Missiles, MGs, and LBX10s ALL our weapons are Sniper weapons (100% convergence, single shot)
3 ) No one wants people blazing away at 10x zoom with an ERPPC @ 1500m

The third point is self evident.

Points 1 and 2 are inextricably linked in an MMO. If for instance we had AC20s that fired bursts say 4 rds each 5 damage the Server, Network, and Client would all have to handle each individual round creating Lag, Server Simulation Granularity problems, and skull crushing FPS drops. On the other hand if they did do bursts we wouldn't have a Convergence problem with AC20s. The same is true of all the other weapon systems as well.

In fact points 1 and 2 are the reason for the change to the missile flight path for Artemis LRMs. With the old double helix swarm every missile was maneuvering a couple times a second. Each one requiring updates to the Client and causing havoc with Lag and FPS drops when lots of LRMs were being fired. This is not a point that can be fixed. It isn't a problem with MWO, CryEngine, or PGI's programmers. It is simply the way things must be in an Internet based MMO with Server Authoritative Architecture. 3 or 4 years ago EvE experienced the same problem with Drake fleets and missiles.

I could go on, in greater detail with lots of math, but I think I've gotten the gist of things.

[qki]

only one of the selling points for an AC20 is doing all that damage to one location.

[scJazz]

qki, on 31 August 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

only one of the selling points for an AC20 is doing all that damage to one location.

you are missing the point

[Enderman]

Mouse sensitivity isn't the point, I know how to change it.

The problem is that the reticle is bigger than the mech even at x3 zoom, so I have to look down for a second just to see where the enemy is at. And the issue is not hitting the particular component, the issue is being able to hit the mech at all, or just to see what you are aiming at.

So far I gave up on trying to hit anything further than 1000m, except when the target is completely still. Carrying ERPPCs over the regular ones is not worth it in almost all situations.

scJazz, on 31 August 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

Reasons behind Serious Zoom and your underlying comments regarding Convergence...
1 ) MWO runs Server Authoritative architecture MMO
2 ) With the exception of Missiles, MGs, and LBX10s ALL our weapons are Sniper weapons (100% convergence, single shot)
3 ) No one wants people blazing away at 10x zoom with an ERPPC @ 1500m

About 3 - well, it is solved by less accurate weapons, which also solves the alphastrike problem, as firing weapons one-by-one would be far more accurate than firing all at once.

[Joker Two]

Good points above.

From an in-universe perspective, that is beyond the common engagement range in Battletech, and beyond the maximum ranges of most weapons in the tabletop games. Although these ranges are often explained as abstractions, there are serious balance implacations to extending the effective range of weapons further, namely that the balance between firepower and maneuverability is upset.

Games of Battletech using more recent (in-universe) technological advances have sometimes been accused of being "turretech", that is, the effect of movement is considered negligible compared to the long range brackets of some weapons, much like our sniper/brawler debate in MWO.

[Koniving]

Enderman, on 31 August 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

So far I gave up on trying to hit anything further than 1000m, except when the target is completely still. Carrying ERPPCs over the regular ones is not worth it in almost all situations.

About 3 - well, it is solved by less accurate weapons, which also solves the alphastrike problem, as firing weapons one-by-one would be far more accurate than firing all at once.

Lower heat capacity could solve point 3 as well. The alpha strike problem comes from being able to do insane amounts of firepower at the same time without any real risk involving heat management. In fact it practically doesn't exist if not for the slow dissipation/cooling rate to make up for it.

However, just so you're aware, beyond 810 meters you're doing significantly reduced damage with ER PPCs. At 1215 meters you're doing 5 damage per ER PPC. At 1417.5 meters you're doing 2.5 damage. At 1620 meters you're doing 0 damage. So there isn't much point in sniping that far away anyway.

[Koniving]

Joker Two, on 31 August 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Games of Battletech using more recent (in-universe) technological advances have sometimes been accused of being "turretech", that is, the effect of movement is considered negligible compared to the long range brackets of some weapons, much like our sniper/brawler debate in MWO.

For this, take a moment to look at weapon cooldown times in MWO.
For lasers, consider that the cooldown time does not start until after the beam has stopped. So if a medium laser has a 1 second beam time, you must wait 1 full second after pulling the trigger before cooldown starts. It's a 3 second cooldown. In effect you click fire once every 4 seconds.

A PPC is fired once every 4 seconds.

A Gauss Rifle is fired once every 4 seconds.

An Ac/20 is fired once every 4 seconds.

(Notice a pattern here?)

An SRM-6 is fired once every 4 seconds.

A large laser is fired once every 4.25 seconds.
...wait, what? O_O

A small laser is fired once every 3 seconds.

An AC/10 is fired once every 2.5 seconds.

An AC/5 is fired once every 1.5 seconds.

The UAC/5 (both a brawling and sniper's weapon) is fired once every 1.1 seconds for the no jam rate.

An AC/2 (another typically sniping weapon) is fired every 0.52 seconds.

Something's quite dearly wrong here.

[scJazz]

Enderman, on 31 August 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

About 3 - well, it is solved by less accurate weapons, which also solves the alphastrike problem, as firing weapons one-by-one would be far more accurate than firing all at once.

OK but going that route also means that 10x Zoom isn't needed at all since weapons are less accurate. Unless you want accurate weapons when fired one at a time. Which reverts us back to serious ugly since under that pattern people only fit Gauss, PPC, and AC20s in other words the same weapons we have now since they will fire the biggest gun they can get one at a time with Zero Convergence.

There is only one solution ever proposed that balances High Alpha Zero Convergence with Player Choice and everything else.

Homeless Bill's Solution
http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2780

[Redshift2k5]

Different reticules would be nice, the reticules can obscure the action at certain ranged.

They've admitted the 'advanced zoom' needs to be updated, so just have patience and use those mark-1s.