18 replies to this topic

[42and19]

I've always felt that this was a bit of an issue. You buy a mech, say...a centurion. You start playing 10-15 matches later it is basic'd out but you are only halfway to buying another variant. I understand the reasoning behind the slow c-bill gain. I understand that pgi wants something for us to work towards. But considering that c-bills and xp are gained in direct relation to eachother you would think that they would be gained in such a way that, at least for lights and cheaper mediums, you would basic out the mech around the same time that you obtained enough cash for the next one.

The double xp bonus has only compounded the issue.

I recently bought my first hunchback. In two days (with about 6 drops each day) I managed to max out his basics. I have 1.8 Million c-bills, and this is without buying anything. It feels....weird. I wouldn't even have enough for most lights.

I think that either the xp gain should be scaled back or the c-bill gain scaled up so that they are more in synch.

[NinetyProof]

Sorry, not convinced. That's a very VERY short window your looking at.

Just because you finished basic doesn't mean anything ... you still have elite and master to fill out. So even if you are not "earning enough" to get another mech, you still have a ton of XP that you need to get.

In the end, you will still be grinding XP to unlock master long after you have bought all 3 of your variants.

Also, take into account, that as you "unlock" skills, you gain CB's faster as your Mech (and you) perform better and make more CBills. Especially once your bouncing two mechs (die, leave, start new game with 2nd mech, die, leave, start game with first mech).

PGI already stated that it should take 19-20 hours of play time to grind up enough to buy an Atlas, and that's before any kind of bonus like Hero Mechs or Premium Time ...

[Zolaz]

It is much more fun to grind 20 hours for an Atlas than to play CW.

[Deathlike]

My game stats suggest that I spend like 7 to 10 hours to mastering just one mech, so the double XP stuff is accelerating the progress.

You will be able to buy the next Hunchback pretty easily... with all the good stuff... but it's better to wait for all the money to be collected after getting all the prerequisite XP for full mastery... which is the part of the tedious grind.

[Captain Stiffy]

I agree with OP - with Phoenix and then even just 6 months after that there will be a LOT of mechs and there's no reason that trying them out (TRIAL MECHS DON'T COUNT AS TRYING A MECH OUT SINGLE HEAT SINK FAILURE BAD DEVS AWFUL) should cost you mech cost + 2.5 million just to see if that variant is worthwhile to you.

The cost of getting into mechs is way too high and the c-bill nerf didn't hurt anyone that was already a good play and had too many c-bills, it only hurt players who are inexperience or who are good and want to experience as much content as possible.

C-Bills are something they can give away entirely without cost. The 5% of complete morons or overtly rich people who actually pay MC for mechs you can buy with C-Bills are the tiniest minority yet somehow this becomes the absolute focus of the game.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

If they give away c-bills with out regards to their goal of getting you to buy and use MC, they will go out of business.

The free to play model is pretty simple.

#1: Take a game that people would like to play.

#2: Allow said players free access to the game.

#3: Have something optional for players to buy to individualize game experience.

#4: Provide goals of advancement in said game.

#5: allow initial goals to be easily obtained (hooking players), however require later goals to take a considerable amount of time to achieve (reeling players into the boat).

#6: Monetize time spent in game by which players who do not have enough time to sit and grind out games goals, use real money to cut the time it takes to reach said goals in game.

#7 Rinse and repeat numbers 3, 4, 5, & 6 as many ways/times as you can.

Number 8 for many f2p titles is: Release extra content as an expansion pack that must be purchased separately.

MWO monetizes the core game by, providing short cuts in the c-bill time grind (hero mechs/premium time) and having the GXP system. once you have your mech bought, tricked out, and set, more than likely you will be mastered up in it, and depending on how well you did, you also could have enough XP to unlock that module slot.

But I don't think at the current earning you will have enough c-bills to buy the next variant/chassis yet. so you grind a bit to get that new mech, and now your sitting on all that extra XP. And if you like tricked out mech 1, you will expand its XP pool by using it. At some point you will want to avoid the XP end of a mechs piloting tree grind (if nothing else to not run a dozen matches just to get basic effiencies unlocked on it) and all those piles of XP from older mechs will be sitting there mocking you.

MWO provides a convenient way to convert XP to GXP just for such situations! all it takes is some MC which costs real money.

So MWO follows all the rules of a basic f2p game.

We can play the game completely free with trial mechs. We can buy paint/camo & cockpit items which provide nothing in terms of game benefits. (rule #3)

We get a cadet bonus in our first 25 matches to buff our c-bill earning to buy and trick out our first mech. After that the earnings take a nosedive. (Rule #5)

We can all non hero/champion mechs with in game earnings. (rule #4)

Premium time, hero mechs and xp conversion cost real money to buy (rule #6)

New mechs, heros mechs, camos, paints & items are introduced at a regular pace, and even a few new maps have made their way to us this past year. (rule #7)

last years Founders program, and this years Phoenix Project are expansion content within the framework of MWO (rule #8)

C-bill can not be given away without cost, as the system of a f2p game requires a percentage of players to be actively trying to side step the time grind.

[Team Leader]

buff cbill gain by 70% of its current level, make premium time have 100% increase in money made, and 100% xp increase. Let hero mechs generate 50% more income and 10% more gxp. Game is far too grindy. I hate it and don't play anymore because of it. Also, reduce reduce recudeeee the price of MC mechs. They should be 1/4 they are now. Make up for it in quantity as people want to skip the cbill part and try new mechs.

[Kitane]

The critical issue is that the player doesn't know if he's going to like the mech he is planning to buy.

So either offer people a way to try out the mechs, for example give people an access to an unlimited trial mechbay with all mechs, upgrades and weapons available for free and an option to use the mech in match at 50k C-bill per matchs with no rewards.

Or just increase C-bill generation by a lot, to make people less afraid to spend their money on unknown mechs

Edited by Kitane, 04 September 2013 - 02:33 AM.

[New Day]

Tyrnea Smurf, on 03 September 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

If they give away c-bills with out regards to their goal of getting you to buy and use MC, they will go out of business.

The free to play model is pretty simple.

#1: Take a game that people would like to play.

#2: Allow said players free access to the game.

#3: Have something optional for players to buy to individualize game experience.

#4: Provide goals of advancement in said game.

#5: allow initial goals to be easily obtained (hooking players), however require later goals to take a considerable amount of time to achieve (reeling players into the boat).

#6: Monetize time spent in game by which players who do not have enough time to sit and grind out games goals, use real money to cut the time it takes to reach said goals in game.

#7 Rinse and repeat numbers 3, 4, 5, & 6 as many ways/times as you can.

Number 8 for many f2p titles is: Release extra content as an expansion pack that must be purchased separately.

MWO monetizes the core game by, providing short cuts in the c-bill time grind (hero mechs/premium time) and having the GXP system. once you have your mech bought, tricked out, and set, more than likely you will be mastered up in it, and depending on how well you did, you also could have enough XP to unlock that module slot.

But I don't think at the current earning you will have enough c-bills to buy the next variant/chassis yet. so you grind a bit to get that new mech, and now your sitting on all that extra XP. And if you like tricked out mech 1, you will expand its XP pool by using it. At some point you will want to avoid the XP end of a mechs piloting tree grind (if nothing else to not run a dozen matches just to get basic effiencies unlocked on it) and all those piles of XP from older mechs will be sitting there mocking you.

MWO provides a convenient way to convert XP to GXP just for such situations! all it takes is some MC which costs real money.

So MWO follows all the rules of a basic f2p game.

We can play the game completely free with trial mechs. We can buy paint/camo & cockpit items which provide nothing in terms of game benefits. (rule #3)

We get a cadet bonus in our first 25 matches to buff our c-bill earning to buy and trick out our first mech. After that the earnings take a nosedive. (Rule #5)

We can all non hero/champion mechs with in game earnings. (rule #4)

Premium time, hero mechs and xp conversion cost real money to buy (rule #6)

New mechs, heros mechs, camos, paints & items are introduced at a regular pace, and even a few new maps have made their way to us this past year. (rule #7)

last years Founders program, and this years Phoenix Project are expansion content within the framework of MWO (rule #8)

C-bill can not be given away without cost, as the system of a f2p game requires a percentage of players to be actively trying to side step the time grind.

Excpet in PGI speak Microtransactions=Macrotransactions. For 2 Orions you get get a full fledged game.

[Shadey99]

NamesAreStupid, on 04 September 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

Excpet in PGI speak Microtransactions=Macrotransactions. For 2 Orions you get get a full fledged game.

For 2 Orions I can buy 1 current AAA title game, or for 1 Orion I can buy last years greatest AAA title, or for 1/2 an Orion I can buy a game that was the greatest thing ever 2 years ago or the newest thing from a small publisher.

Money in a bad game is just silly (0 kills, 4 assists, loss, highest damage/matchscore for my team, 50k). OMG crazy win with (4 kills, 8 assists, highestmatchscore/damage, win) nets me 170k which is inline with a good win in 8v8. The loss happens much more than the crazy win. An average win is 85-115k. In mastering Jagers I've made 15 million which barely even recoups the cost of the Jagers and half of that was spent equipping the Jagers so my 'net gain' was around 7 mil.

[New Day]

Shadey99, on 04 September 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

For 2 Orions I can buy 1 current AAA title game, or for 1 Orion I can buy last years greatest AAA title, or for 1/2 an Orion I can buy a game that was the greatest thing ever 2 years ago or the newest thing from a small publisher.

Money in a bad game is just silly (0 kills, 4 assists, loss, highest damage/matchscore for my team, 50k). OMG crazy win with (4 kills, 8 assists, highestmatchscore/damage, win) nets me 170k which is inline with a good win in 8v8. The loss happens much more than the crazy win. An average win is 85-115k. In mastering Jagers I've made 15 million which barely even recoups the cost of the Jagers and half of that was spent equipping the Jagers so my 'net gain' was around 7 mil.

Thanks for making my point. Saves me the trouble.

[Bront]

Generally, at least for the first mechs, it's all the basics plus 21500 XP for all the elites, so having to do the extra grind between purchasing mech chasis I don't see as horable.

But yes, CBills need to flow a bit freer. THey also need to reward better for non-combat roles. Outside of spotting (hard to predict) and Tagging/Narcing (reliant on other mechs to help you earn XP/CBills), nothing else helps. First to target and capping (even unsuccesfull capping has it's use) would help. There are other things smaller mechs do that are hard to judge how to reward as well

[Shadey99]

Bront, on 04 September 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Generally, at least for the first mechs, it's all the basics plus 21500 XP for all the elites, so having to do the extra grind between purchasing mech chasis I don't see as horable.

This depends on how you play... I can usually only play an hour or so a night, so I almost always get a 2x xp boost during my Jager leveling. A good game with 2x is over 3k xp, and average game is ~2k, and a horrible win is 1k xp (cap win in assault with max damage/matchscore for your team). Add in a good number of loses into this which can have rewards as high as 1.75k xp and xp flows very very fast. In the old 8v8 I never went above 1.5k xp, so currently xp is just silly.

Cbills however are nearly non-existent on a loss (as low as 50k cbill), barely better on a cap win (50-75k), an average winning game gives ok cbills (90-110k), and a good victory is solidly like it used to be (150-175k). With cbill rewards lower than before and xp as much as 3x what it was it is far to easy to level a mech (without ever needing to touch GXP and giving PGI monies) to master if you had the money to buy three mechs up front. Since xp needed doesn't vary by chasis or class you'll typically not have the money for three variants while leveling unless you are going for light or mediums.

To expand this... All mechs in the game require 57250 xp to master and you earn 500-3.5k xp per match (114.5 to 16.3 matches to master). The cheapest mech is 1,744,525 cbills (34.89 to 9.96 matches to buy). However that is the 25 ton Commando. The cheapest Medium is 3,130,436 cbills (62.6 to 17.88 matches to buy). The cheapest heavy is 4,745,200 cbills (94.9 to 27.11 matches to buy). The cheapest Assault is 6,524,390 cbills (130.48 to 37.28 matches). However you need 3 of them to master a chasis so even the Commando is 104.67 to 29.88 matches, though this also means you could master 3 mechs at 343.5 to 48.9 matches.

I can say, though, from even 600 damage matches in my Spiders that I'm lucky to see 100k and more typically 80-90k and typically 2.5k xp. So if we use 85k cbills and 2k xp we see 20.5/28.625 matches per mech. Or in other words ~71% the cbills for the same amount of xp and it looks worse the higher up you take it.

Edited by Shadey99, 04 September 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[Homeless Bill]

And this is why you need to buy Premium Time. Or something.

[ShotgunWillie]

NinetyProof, on 03 September 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Sorry, not convinced. That's a very VERY short window your looking at.

Just because you finished basic doesn't mean anything ... you still have elite and master to fill out. So even if you are not "earning enough" to get another mech, you still have a ton of XP that you need to get.

In the end, you will still be grinding XP to unlock master long after you have bought all 3 of your variants.

Except that you can't do anything with the XP you earn on that one mech until you have all of the basics unlocked for 2 other variants of the same chassis, which makes it feel like you're just grinding to grind. If I can spend the 8500 XP on speed tweak as soon as I have it, it's not too bad to grind for a few matches to get that XP.

If I'm going to have to let the XP sit there for days while I grind out the CBills to buy my second mech, or a week or two while I grind out the CBills to buy two more mechs (gotta unlock the basics on 2 more, not just one, right?), it feels too grindy, especially when the CBill reward per match is so low.

Before the CBill nerf, if you were working with light or medium mechs, you could afford your next mech about the same time you unlocked the basics on the mech you were piloting. Between the CBill nerf and the first win of the day reward (especially if your first win of the day is a match that you played lights out and got 1000 to 1500 base XP), you earn XP far faster than you earn CBills.

Quote

Also, take into account, that as you "unlock" skills, you gain CB's faster as your Mech (and you) perform better and make more CBills. Especially once your bouncing two mechs (die, leave, start new game with 2nd mech, die, leave, start game with first mech).

Except that you have to be able to actually get that second mech before you can bounce between them.

Quote

PGI already stated that it should take 19-20 hours of play time to grind up enough to buy an Atlas, and that's before any kind of bonus like Hero Mechs or Premium Time ...

And that would be a valid point if the OP were talking about buying an Atlas with CBills. But he's not. He's talking about a Hunchback, which weighs half of what an Atlas weighs and costs roughly half of what an Atlas costs.

[Almond Brown]

Shadey99, on 04 September 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

For 2 Orions I can buy 1 current AAA title game, or for 1 Orion I can buy last years greatest AAA title, or for 1/2 an Orion I can buy a game that was the greatest thing ever 2 years ago or the newest thing from a small publisher.

Money in a bad game is just silly (0 kills, 4 assists, loss, highest damage/matchscore for my team, 50k). OMG crazy win with (4 kills, 8 assists, highestmatchscore/damage, win) nets me 170k which is inline with a good win in 8v8. The loss happens much more than the crazy win. An average win is 85-115k. In mastering Jagers I've made 15 million which barely even recoups the cost of the Jagers and half of that was spent equipping the Jagers so my 'net gain' was around 7 mil.

And which of those new or old AAA games let you drive around in those Orions again?

[Shadey99]

Almond Brown, on 05 September 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

And which of those new or old AAA games let you drive around in those Orions again?

That's like saying I can only enjoy oranges and not apples even though they are both fruit. I don't need every game to be full of Orions (and the Orion was just an example, I don't own one) to enjoy a game. However I do expect a certain level of enjoyment for a certain dollar investment which is where those examples come in.

I see you didn't touch the comments relating to the heading of 'cbill to xp ratio' or any of the math I did for that...

[Stewbawl]

this whole thread is hogwash,

since they started keeping track of stats i have played 1,637 games and according to my personal stats my average xp per game is 712 and my average c-bills per match is 125,022.

the average cost of the 5 hunchbacks that you can purchase with c-bills is 3,669,309. buying 3 hunchbacks would then cost you roughly 11,007,927 depending on which 3 you buy.

correct me if i'm wrong but to fully xp out a mech would be 64,500 xp times three mechs would be 193,500 to fully master 3 hunchbacks.

by these numbers i would fully recoup my money for all three hunchbacks after 88.05 games and yet it would take me 271.77 games to master them. therefore durring those extra 183 games i'd be making a profit of 22,969,259 c-bills to put towards the purchase of another mech or upgrading the hunchbacks to something better than stock. even if EVERY GAME was a double exp game you would still get your money first and play an extra 47 games earning an extra 6 million c-bills

even with the Atlas it would take me 259.22 games to earn back the money, still less than the number of games needed to max out exp.

i fully understand that this includes numbers from before the addition of double exp games and the decrease in c-bills earned. even if you replace my c-bills earned with the average listed in the september creative developer update (79,069) you still earn your money back before you have the exp to fully master them.

Edited by Stewbawl, 05 September 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Shadey99]

Stewbawl, on 05 September 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

since they started keeping track of stats i have played 1,637 games and according to my personal stats my average xp per game is 712 and my average c-bills per match is 125,022.

Have you ever taken statistics? Because your example here starts with vastly weighted data from a pre-nerf period. You cannot mix the two and come up with valid results. I kept my own post-nerf numbers for the math I did above so the data would be clean. I know I'm not the 'leet' mechwarrior compared to some (at least these days), so I think I make an acceptable 'average player'. Though based on PGI's overall stats I seem to be slightly higher than their average player.

Btw it is 57,250 xp to master a mech.

As is your numbers are questionable as they suggest way more c-bills earned somehow than some of my ranges even using PGI's stats. My own numbers are above and suggest quite variable ranges of possiblity based on min and max games. My end ratio was 71% cbills to xp, or in other words you can easily gain 29% more xp toward mastering a mech than the equal amount of cbills required to buy a mech.