42 replies to this topic

[Kmieciu]

Kaptain, on 04 September 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

The head has 18 points of armor and 15 points of structure.

FTFY

[Chaosdrive]

Unfortunately, people are going to take this seriously despite it being an attempt at starting a war, so I feel obligated to post for those who do/are going to really be serious about this.

Ballistics

+ Decent damage per hit and/or DPS
+ Options for all kinds of ranges
+ Pinpoint damage
+ AC/20 has the most internal health of all weapons
+ Access to crit seeking weapons
+ Provide screen shake to the enemy

- Require explosive ammo (Or an explosive weapon, in the case of Gauss)
- Very heavy
- Larger calibres are restricted to larger mech's
- Once lost results in a huge damage/dps loss
- Gauss requires charge up, and has low health

+- They are in the middle ground for heat per second, some generate a lot of heat per second, some do not.

Energy

+ Low tonnage, great damage per ton
+ Many options for different ranges
+ Option for pinpoint damage
+ Easiest hardpoint to come across
+ No adjusting for projectile speed (Excluding the PPC's)
+ Burn time allows for mid-firing corrections.

- generally high heat per second across the board compared to damage dealt
- Most variants spread damage across the enemy mech
- The PPC is useless within 90m
- Hit the hardest with ghost heat

Missile

+ Low tonnage, great damage per son
+ Long and short range varieties
+ Provide screen shake to the enemy
+ LRM's don't need direct LOS
+ Option for Artemis add on
+ Allows for support weapons such as Tag to be used in order to improve their hit rate
+ Low heat per second across the board compared to damage dealt

- Need ammo
- Fairly low ammo/ton
- Very strict min/max ranges
- Can be shot down by AMS
- Spreads the damage all over the enemy mech
- Blocked/slowed lock on time by ECM
- (Temporary) SRM's currently suffer from poor hit detection

+- Some require lock on, which can be both good and back, depending on the situation



All weapon types have their advantages and disadvantages, the theory of it is pretty balanced, however I believe the main thing holding lasers back is the pretty severe ghost heat limitations, on the large laser family in particular, 18-20 points of mid range damage that is spread across the mech is actually very poor, they really need to revisit the numbers for that.

The main reason ballistics's do well is because they killed a decent damaging counter with limiting large lasers to two for an alpha and in close range SRM'***** detection can be very hit and miss. If they bumped large lasers up to 4 before ghost heat kicks in (Which is still only a 36 alpha strike, spread across a mech, and requires a lot of heat sinks which limits it to heavy/assault mech's) and SRM'***** like they are suppose to then weapon groups as a whole would be pretty clear set in their advantages and disadvantages.


In short, the weapon groups each have their advantages and disadvantages over the others however missile HSR and ghost heat regarding the large laser family messes it up.


Side note: I feel almost ashamed for taking the time to write this however (And here's hoping) it will stop at least one player from being baited into participating in this war attempt.

[DarthPayne]

I've been driving a Jaegermech DD with triple UAC + 2 ML for months now, having a blast with it. It jammed (in the wrong moment) and that was fine. But now, so many people are running triple UACs because they just don't jam enough anymore and they can do a ridiculous amount of damage. So, I'd like to see the UAC buff undone. The previous values were fine. This thing has to jam. And I want to be one of the few who is running a triple UAC again.

[Fiest]

Gotta say i'm surprised at the return of the uac jam to 15%. I c think it was at 15% previously and it was a little overpowered for it's burst damage it put out on average.
I'm figuring it should average 6-7 shots before it jams which is 30-35 damage. I thought it would be good to reduce it's cooldown but that would shift it's burst damage so you'd notice. Maybe alter jam to 20%?

[Autobot9000]

It's not all ballistics, but the U/AC is a complete joke. Also why shake the cockpit and render explosions every ******** time? They can do that, if someone actually hits the cockpit, but otherwise this is a stupid thing.

[Xandre Blackheart]

At least people are talking about balance.

But seriously, there's no acceptable substitute for ballistics now.

Well except maybe chain fired LL builds. but they can't stand up to chain fired ballistic builds one to one. It's a matter of the damage taking longer to be applied.

[BlacKcuD]

3x UltraAC/5 builds are really insane at the moment. With the amount of snipers heavily reduced and the recent buff to UAC/5s, they have become really powerful. However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that UltraAC/5s are overpowered. Mounting 3x UAC/5s still requires a lot of tonnage and is heavily limited by ammo.

You can also bet that there won't be any immediate changes to the UltraAC/5. They are looking at a few weapons to rework them at the moment (see Gauss Rifle changes) and the UltraAC/5 is like the 2nd or 3rd item on their list (after Flamers if I remember correctly).

A possible solution to balancing the UltraAC/5 would be to increase heat generation if it double fires. You will have the advantage of increased burst damage, but at the price of higher heat.

More indirect changes could include looking at introducing a Max Alpha 2 for UltraAC/5s or increasing the Max Alpha for the Large Laser group to 3-4.

Edited by BlacKcuD, 07 September 2013 - 07:13 AM.

[GrandLocomon]

AC2 - too hot, has heat penalty, chews through ammo. No nerf needed. AC5 - kinda bad DPS, but acceptable. No nerf needed. AC10 - never used it can't comment. LBX-10 is good where it is, not too much damage, difficult to boat, no nerf needed. Guass - has been nerfed to the ground, no nerf needed. AC20, bad range, bad damage to ton of ammo ratio. No nerf needed. Ultra AC - VERY OP. I reliably get high damage and have had multiple high kill scores when using 2 or more UAC5 builds. NERF NEEDED only for uac5. Maybe a heat penalty for using even 2 I think honestly. I know I shouldn't be doing that well with them.

Edited by GrandLocomon, 07 September 2013 - 07:26 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

it isnt that bad. even the currently "OP" uac5 isnt that bad. Ballistics could use some minor tuning, but overall they are just fine.

[Martin Oberhofer]

Ballistics in general are fine i think, but i agree that the uac5 is OP actually
on my ilya i got back to 1 ML for 2 additional tons of ammo. (275)
It can still happen that i run out of ammo, mostly between 20 and 100 rounds left (dealing neraly on every game > 600DMG)

It still jams yes, but the time now needed for letting all three jam is lower than the jamming timeout.

Or make jamming more of a problem, meaning -> 60sec timeout or you loose 5 rounds...
Or bring the jam rate up to 25% again

rest of the ballistics are fine -> appart from the still bugged AC2

[Magna Canus]

I agree that Ballistics are fine as is besides the UAC. Ghost heat for double fire is a great idea as well as the option to turn double fire on and off.

[Nebelfeuer]

All balistics have around twice as much dps as energy weapons+they can substain it longer and with mechlab in its current state exploding ammo and ammo shortage are not a real problem in MWO (no fixed locations and amounts + it is normaly faster to aim for leathal locations then searching for ammodepos and hope for an explosion),

Bring the dps down by around 30% and we should have a quite balanced game. It would still be a good bit above that of energyweapons.

UAC mechanic is totally rubish and needs to be replaced with something that can not be outmacroed and the penalty needs to be much harsher then a 5sec jamming time(about 30 secs would be my suggestion) when they intend to keep the nearly doubled fastfiringfiringrate we currently have.

To reduce pinpoint acurracy of the larger AC´s I still think multiple projectile bursts instead of single projectile ones would do the trick. Would also be more atmospheric.

[Erebus Alpha]

The problem isn't that ballistics are overpowered - it's that energy weapons and missiles are underpowered.

EVERYONE, regardless of what weapon type they like to tote around, needs to have the same assault-nuking capability that Jagermechs, Cataphracts, and other ballistic-heavy designs do. All battlemechs and weapon systems need to be capable of punching well above their weight.

I remember in Mechwarrior 4, I went around blasting giant chunks out of assault mechs in a wolfhound, armed with a PPC and a large laser. I didn't need a 'team' to do that, even in a team multiplayer game. I didn't have to rely on pansy-mode backup - I just went out and melted faces. And it was good. Mechwarrior Online lacks EVERY part of that absolutely amazing experience.

Ballistics need buffed - and energy weapons and missiles need to be buffed even harder. ANY weapon that is not an armor-stripping battlemech shredder is underpowered and useless.

And before you whine about 6x PPC stalkerwarrior online: Remember in Mechwarrior 4, where firing four PPC's at once would spike the heat from zero to shutdown? Good times.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

One thing that gets me is that people only count weapon weight against energy weapon users and count weapon and ammo tonnage against ballistics. The real issue with energy mechs are slots. You almost always run out of spots to put heat sinks, and half the time my engine is chose more for how many slots is has than it's speed.

And as far as balance goes, when was the last time you backed off of a mech because he was throwing lasers at you?

[Anais Opal]

Xandre Blackheart, on 04 September 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

You've never seen a mech get headshot from across the map? Where have you been? In the minors?

It is extraordinarily difficult to cockpit a 'Mech at extreme range, if it happens the pilot was either extremely lucky or using hacks.

Anyway, what is all this rubbish about nerfing ballistics? AC2's over heat you like nothing else, AC5's and 10's have a pretty slow ROF. Most 'Mechs can only mount two UAC5's (except the Jager S, DD and Muromets), they jam easily and have limitation on ammunition, to get a decent amount you seriously have to risk your 'Mech with an XL or going light on armour. If your getting torn up b.loody well MOVE out the way! How hard is that? 'nuts, i'm getting shot, better get my butt elsewhere'

Ballistics are fine imo, hell I still run a dual gauss jager and the change has had no effect on my efficiency in it.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Since lately it seems you end up with a "hot" map rather than a cool one, it just makes the case for people to bring weapons that generate less heat. I hit more often and do more overall damage with lasers compared to ballistics, but with their slower recycle rates and longer wait for the heat to dissipate, I can send many more ballistic rounds downrange, which more than compensates for the difference in accuracy. So part of the blame can be attributed to the maps, not knowing if you're going to get a hot or a cool one. Also, I agree that lasers should be buffed somehow to make them more competitive with ballistics. If we nerf ballistics now, it will mess up their relationship with both energy and missile weapons.

[Five by Five]

heeheehee.....

Nerf Wars!!!

or

Nerf Warrior.....

May be time to go visit the meme thread.

Edited by Five by Five, 11 September 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Tragos]

(I know the OP started this as a troll thread, still the problem exists)

Actually only the UAC5 is a problem.

This shouldn't really be a surprise, let's compare some basic stats, like dps.

Since skills like fast fire effect every weapon I will not include them.

AC20: 20dmg/4sec cooldown = 5dps
AC10: 10dmg/2.5sec cooldown = 4dps.
AC5: 5dmg/1.5sec cooldown = 3,33dps
AC2: 2dmg/0,52sec cooldown =3,85dps
LBX10: 10dmg/2,5sec cooldown =4dps
UAC5: 5dmg/1,1sec cooldown =4,55dps
UAC5doubleshot: 10dmg/1,1sec cooldown = 9,1dps.

If you include jamming you will see, that the UAC5 will reach ~4dps OVER TIME. This leads to one problem: The weapon may be fine over time, but if it doesn't jam - and you have 3 of 'em, they become unbalanced. Let's have a look at the following example:
A: AC20 Jager
B: 3xUltra Ilya
You have a potentially 3 salvos per ac before A even reloads (additionally to the opening salvo, so 4 all together):
3 UAC * 4 Salvos * 2Shots per Salvo *5dmg = 120dmg in 3.3. seconds.

Your average laser or AC20 shot once during this time and is still reloading.

Edited by Tragos, 11 September 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Unspeakable Cuteness]

The only Balistics weapon that I honestly feel needs to be urgently addressed currently is the UAC5. Its not about the DPS or range or rate-of-fire or any one thing, its all of it put together that makes it problematic.

Anybody who's been on the receiving end of a double UAC5 volley has pretty much experienced this. Their whole screen shakes violently, the shots come very rapidly, and even if your screen is not filled with explosions returning fire is practically imposible.

Its not just the damage, its the combination of the damage, screen-shake, and the RoF of the weapon that I feel pushes it over the edge. No other weapon in the game can be used to reliably snipe at pretty insane ranges, supress an enemy at all ranges, and still be used in rapid-fire to blast through armour at close range. And it does all this at pretty negligable heat.

Thankfully the devs have said that the UAC5 and the Flamer are the next weapons that they're looking to overhaul. I'd love to see what they do with it, especially considering how much they were able to differentiate the Gauss Rifle from the PPC in terms of how the 2 different weapons handle now.

Even if the overhaul ends up nerfing the UAC5 in some way or makes it too difficult for someone of my skill level to use effectively (like the new Gauss Rifle), I'd welcome it. It would shift focus over to the other AutoCannons and allow them to shine in their own right.

Edited by Unspeakable Cuteness, 11 September 2013 - 11:38 AM.

[DeaconW]

I find it hilarious that a troll post got all these people talking seriously about nerfing the UAC5...to all of you I say:



This community is so easy to predict. Well done troll, OP. Well done.