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A Few Noob Questions


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#1 IllCaesar

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:48 AM

Most of these are based on opinion and experience, and I couldn't really find any answers with the search function. I don't need long explanations, just a short yes or no will work for them.

-Realistically speaking, are there any downsides to an XL engine besides the loss of slots? I know that if either side torso is destroyed, the whole mech goes, but I'm just wonder what people's personal experiences with them are, and if that really matters at all that much. Some mechs are already built so that if they lose a side torso they lose most of their power anyways.

-Is the anti-missile system worthwhile on slower mechs? Off of my (admittedly very limited) experience, it doesn't destroy many missiles in a salvo, and the only time I noticed it really protecting my mech from any substantial damage was when I was moving fast enough to dodge some of the salvo. I don't see any reason to believe that AMS would be useful on a a brawler.

-Does the heat being conferred onto a target mech from a flamer stack? I couldn't find a straight answer for this one. Basically, if one flamer brings the target mech's heat up to, say, 20%, would using two flamers at once instead of one bring it up to 21% or higher? Additionally, regardless of that answer, in your opinion, are flamers even worth the tonnage and slots on mechs that could effectively use them? I have a, lets say, "ambitious" mech design that utilizes two of them, but the training grounds hasn't provided me with any useful information.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 05 September 2013 - 07:56 AM.


#2 JonahGrimm

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:13 AM

- On XL engines:

Er. yes. The torso thing is /huge/.

The best example I know is on the Centurion - if you avoid the XL, I've watched these things end up as a CT with a head and one leg, and /still/ be out there scrapping, having absorbed punishment often reserved for things like Atlases. Put an XL in it, and you cut your survivability by half.

The rule of thumb I can offer is... Lights, always XL. Mediums... brawlers, no, everything else yes. Heavy & assault, mostly standard (as you have the weight to carry it). As always, YMMV - but adding an XL really does change your survival dramatically in exchange for that extra tonnage.

- AMS worthwhile? Almost always. Even if it doesn't stop the incoming barrage, it reduces the damage of it - and it also grants coverage to all of the friendly mechs around you. I have seen 12-man teams with lots of AMS essentially end up with a 'missile shield' where LRMs weren't worth much.

AMS is something you take to help yourself a little, and your team a lot. However, I will often sacrifice it for a BAP or Guardian, or even for an extra ton of offense, depending on the mech. (keep in mind, I run mostly Trebs and Ravens right now.)

- And. Er. I have no idea. I've /played/ with flamers, but generally think they're fairly worthless except in one circumstance: using it to blind somebody.

I have a TRB-5J that carries a flamer just for that purpose - lighting up their cockpit to ..er... 'discombobulate' the other mech's pilot while I tear off an arm or get away; it's surprisingly useful for that. On the other hand? It does almost no damage, and no significant heat that I can see. Right now, that's the only reason I can justify taking one.

#3 Redshift2k5

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:17 AM

Realistically, some mechs can run an XL better than others, for two reasons:
  • Some mechs can go so fast it makes them very difficult to hit effectively at all, and the XL provides them with the tonnage they need to get to that speed(and still have armaments). (Lights, Cicada)
  • Some mechs are well-shaped and so their side torsos are much more difficult to destroy (and their center so large) you are going to die from a CT destruction anyway (Catapult, Dragon, Quickdraw is an honorable mention)
  • Other mechs can still run XLs with appropriate loadout and tactics. A max speed Centurion or Victor can be scary effective! A Jagermech or Cataphact with an XL can bring boatloads of guns & ammo! This requires some more finesse in how you build the mech and how you use it.
I prefer not to use an AMS and I rely on good mobility and good use of cover instead. A nice big rock trumps missiles better than an AMS.


I don't know the math behind the Flamer, but they are, in my opinion, never worth using. Paul Inouye did say they will be revisiting the flamer soon, so this may change in the future!

Edited by Redshift2k5, 05 September 2013 - 08:20 AM.


#4 IllCaesar

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:01 AM

Thanks for the responses. Flamers are junk, I'll take them off one of my builds then. You can't even blind them now, as there's third-person mixing with first-person.

Sounds like AMS would be good for support mechs and maybe a brawler then. I don't see it getting much use on a light mech going over 100 KPH anyways XD

And thanks for advice on the XL. I'll be sure to not stick the biggest XL engine money can buy on a brawler Atlas then.

#5 Scorpyon

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:21 AM

XL vs Std engines is all about the torso slots and not so much the weight, although that is not insignificant.

First, if your offense is largely located in your L and/or R torso, the XL engine could reduce your damage output. For instance, if you have two missile slots on the R torso, you can't have two LRM20's AND an XL engine.

If you have a high Ammo build and you're trying to cover all the Ammo with one CASE....hard to do with an XL engine.

It's all about what you need the torso slots for, and the needs of your particular mech.

Scorpyon

Edited by Scorpyon, 05 September 2013 - 11:22 AM.


#6 Sadistic Savior

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 01:06 PM

View PostMarsAtlas, on 05 September 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Realistically speaking, are there any downsides to an XL engine besides the loss of slots?

I personally hate XL engines. It basically triples your chances of dying. Normally someone needs to destroy your CT to kill you, but with XL, destroying ANY torso will kill you.

IMO, it is not worth the weight savings or the massive cost (and they are very expensive). On my current mech, I could still be fighting even if the entire right side of my mech is missing. And yes, this has happened many times in my experience. There are many games I would have died in because of this.

Quote

Is the anti-missile system worthwhile on slower mechs?

You have to think of the AMS as basically extra armor. It is damage reduction for you and anyone near you. It will never stop an entire salvo by itself...only a percentage of that salvo.

I would say it is worthwhile if you have weight and space to spare. It can be extremely effective if your teammates all have them too. You could make your entire team basically immune to missile attack. I think AMS will come into heavier use once Community Warfare hits.

#7 Koniving

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 06:30 PM

View PostMarsAtlas, on 05 September 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

Most of these are based on opinion and experience, and I couldn't really find any answers with the search function. I don't need long explanations, just a short yes or no will work for them.

-Realistically speaking, are there any downsides to an XL engine besides the loss of slots? I know that if either side torso is destroyed, the whole mech goes, but I'm just wonder what people's personal experiences with them are, and if that really matters at all that much. Some mechs are already built so that if they lose a side torso they lose most of their power anyways.

-Is the anti-missile system worthwhile on slower mechs? Off of my (admittedly very limited) experience, it doesn't destroy many missiles in a salvo, and the only time I noticed it really protecting my mech from any substantial damage was when I was moving fast enough to dodge some of the salvo. I don't see any reason to believe that AMS would be useful on a a brawler.

-Does the heat being conferred onto a target mech from a flamer stack? I couldn't find a straight answer for this one. Basically, if one flamer brings the target mech's heat up to, say, 20%, would using two flamers at once instead of one bring it up to 21% or higher? Additionally, regardless of that answer, in your opinion, are flamers even worth the tonnage and slots on mechs that could effectively use them? I have a, lets say, "ambitious" mech design that utilizes two of them, but the training grounds hasn't provided me with any useful information.


There used to be other disadvantages that better balanced the XL advantages. One of them was that repairs associated with the loss of the engine were much more expensive, making your death by loss of CT absolutely devastating, and death by ST quite devastating (but not as bad as there is less damage to 3 slots compared to the center torso's much larger number). This actually made death by legging or headshot preferable.

Repair and rearm, a then badly designed mechanic based too strongly off of World of Tanks, could have been a great aid as an early level balancing mechanic for community warfare (i.e. you can't rush to upgrades early on until you rank up in CW and thus earn the rank to earn enough money to make up for losses, thus allowing you to ease into the game rather than rush into the top level tech right off the bat), as well as a hindrance to boating by charging you for surpluses of ammunition.

But it was removed as Community Warfare took forever to come up, and repair and rearm punished you harshly for failure. So much that you could potentially lose 6 times more than you can possibly earn (fully upgraded mech, endo, XL, ferro, DHS in an Atlas loaded with ER PPCs and a Gauss Rifle).

-----------

An AMS is helpful. But alone it's never enough. Twin AMS can stop the short range Streak Missiles from a single light mech before they hit you (except a COM-2D at close range, but if that 2D is at 270 meters twin AMS will shoot down all 6 missiles). If you stack 3 twin AMS mechs or 6 single AMS mechs, most LRM-30 (twin LRM-15), LRM-20, and LRM-40 (4 LRM-10s) combos can't even touch you.

But that ammo will run out fast. And if the enemy has any intelligence at all, they'll pack an LRM-5 to drain your AMS, as it always fires at maximum speed and it doesn't conserve ammo. So whether 90 missiles are coming or 5 missiles are coming, it's always firing full speed. Draining ammo insanely fast. Someone with an LRM 5 or many LRM-5s can just stream missiles knowing they won't hit you but knowing you'll run out of ammo quickly...

They can then follow up with mass LRM-spam, and you'll be absolutely helpless.

------------

It..kinda-does. Really flamers are about worthless at the moment. For their intended purpose they do absolutely nothing unless it's a Catapult A1 with 6 SRM-6s (and that was before penalties). For some reason it works wonders against them.

In the mean time, I use flamers to blind people and create smoke screens. Flamers in the face cause lag on older computers with bad video cards. Even against good computers, it causes a huge wall of flames and distorts vision, throwing off their aim.

(Screens!)
Spoiler


At a distance, I'll throw flames on the ground to create a smoke screen as shown here.
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 05 September 2013 - 09:01 PM.


#8 semalferuzA

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 07:33 PM

AMS is not mandatory but it's still good on a lot of mechs. It's last buffs were pretty good. The real power of the AMS is when you are in groups and have 2 or more AMS firing simultaneously. It is also incredibly powerful when a teammate behind you is being targeted and your AMS gets that extra time to track more missiles.

Missiles are not as popular as they once were so some games you may find that 1.5 tons being wasted; assuming you could use the weight on something useful. But some games it does serious work. With the right positioning it's worth watching at least once how many missiles it can shoot down.

Edited by semalferuzA, 05 September 2013 - 07:36 PM.


#9 xengk

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:40 PM

XL Engine
As others above have mention, it take up extra space in the side torso and increase your chance of dying.
Another draw back it the cost to buy one, they can easily cost as much as your mech chassis or more.
Once you brought one, your CBill will be tied up and if you decide to sell it back to shop you only get back a small portion of the buying price.
It is always a good idea to test your build idea on a simulator first to decide do you really need to drop a few million CBill for an XL. One of the popular simulator is this website http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

AMS
They have a range of 200m and damage of 1, this lets you shot down 2 missiles if they are fired from beyond 200m.
AMS are not great on their own, but can be very impressive when stacked with teammate's to form an AMS umbrella, wiping out small LRM volley.
Generally, I will always install one if my build is going slower than 60kph.

Flamer
Best to ignore them for now.

#10 Hammerfinn

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:46 PM

On XL Engines:

A lot of mechs have relative small side torsos, or are so often focus-fired on the CT that the XL isn't a hindrance. For instance, I run XLs on all my range-support Awesomes and Highlanders, because at range the odds are that they'll be aiming center-mass and even though the side torsos are big, they almost never get destroyed. I have run XLs in those two mechs over 300 games, and I cna count on one hand the times I died to side torso. Other mechs, though, it's more common. I run an XL cataphract, and an XL centurion, and in those, I usually die to ST XL destruction (I use them for the speed/firepower).

On AMS:

If you can fit it without totally borking your build,you should take it. Even if it only destroys a couple of missiles, that's damage you *don't* take. If you just can't fit it, it's not necessary--but it IS more important for slow mechs that can't dodge for cover as quickly. One thing it can do is pretty much destroy an entire salvo of LRM5, and that's non-negligible in a big, slow mech.

On Flamers:

Right now they suck. But they're on the list for the next weapons balancing pass, so they may see a bump soon.

#11 Lunatic_Asylum

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 07:49 PM

In short: for Atlases (my favorite mechs), I would always pick AMS, ECM, and STD engines. Flamers are better for lighter mechs.

Edited by lunticasylum, 10 September 2013 - 07:51 PM.






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