26 replies to this topic

[StarGeezer]

At the risk of putting my rank newbness on full display, I've come here to get the skinny on using sticks in MWO. I've been playing just over a week, and while I'm incrementally improving with a traditional mouse/kb setup, my ability to effectively steer, accelerate and generally orient my feet and torso in any effective and meaningful manner seems mired in futility.

I'm not one to give up so easily in the face of a challenge...I may be an old gamer, but I'm still a gamer. Consequently I've been looking into the prospect of using some other device, be it a simple controller or gamepad, or perhaps a flight stick, throttle, etc. Something...at this point, anything...that will help close the gulf between what I see as possible by more competent pilots and my own anemic abilities to master simple locomotion in a mech.

Which leads me to seek the counsel of you fine folks. In your collective and esteemed estimation, what is the best route to take to help me feel like less of a neophyte in the cockpit of a mech? I've seen a number of stick/mouse combos, where some use a stick on the left hand to control movement and retain the mouse for turret movement and aiming. I haven't yet seen anyone advocate two sticks or a stick and throttle configuration in the game (not to say they're not out there, I just haven't encountered them yet.)

So far I've been considering a couple of middle-of-the-road options that wouldn't set my bank account ablaze. For my first toe in the "sticky" waters, I was trying to keep my budget in the $50 or less area. This lead me to two Thrustmaster options: the T-16000M stick and the T-Flight Hotas X stick/throttle. Both are right around $47 as of this writing on Amazon.

I like the idea of the Hotas X, but am uncertain if the stick would be effective if used in the left hand were I to try a "stick throttle" configuration. The T-16000M appears to be (more or less) ambidextrous and also boasts the Hall Effect technology normally found on higher-priced devices.

OK, fellow stick-jockeys...I'm counting on your help. Please feel free to advise, inform or (gently) chastise my selection options. I'd like to pull the proverbial trigger on a decision over the next week or so. Until then, I'm absolutely open to any and all reasonable suggestions (note: spending $500 on a device right now is not reasonable. )

Have at it!

[EyeDie I]

mwo is optimized for a mouse keyboard set up,i use a joystick (tflight hotas x its plug and play, less adjustable), using a joystick your torso turn is slower.the t16000m is target capable where you can program deadzones and stuff (wish i could).you may want to try left hand joystick for mech movement foreward reverse +turning, and mouse control for your torso for faster aiming.Loc Nar and EvilC should chime in soon and they are the control gurus.

[CyBerkut]

MWO is indeed designed primarily for Keyboard and Mouse use, (apparently because everyone has them).

Generally speaking, playing with an off-the-shelf joystick is atrocious. Some people do it, but many of them will also admit that they prioritize 'immersion' over performance. Everybody makes their own choices.

Some of us combine systems into a hybrid. One approach is the HOTAM, (Hands On Throttle And Mouse). The Thrustmaster HOTAS X throttle could be a decent choice for that, since it has the rudder rocker switch that could be used for leg turning, while you use your mouse to handle the torso twist and tilt. You'll have to decide if it has enough buttons on it for your needs.

Another approach is a HOTAM with rudder pedals. I use a Saitek X-52Pro throttle (engine control and numerous functions) with Saitek Combat rudder pedals (leg turning) and a mouse (torso control and weapons firing). The Saitek X-52 / X-52Pro throttles give you plenty of buttons, etc. to control with, plus the Saitek SST profiling software, which can enable multiple functions per input device, and macros, etc.

Another popular approach is to use a specialized gaming mini-keyboard (ie. Logitech G-13, Razer Nostromo, etc.) in the left hand with a mouse in the right hand. Those mini-keyboards generally give you a mini-stick or D-Pad that you could use to control the engine and leg turning, if you wanted.

The Thrustmaster T.16000M is a fine, low cost ambidextrous joystick. But you need to consider... do you really want to have to constantly hold that stick forward with your left hand against spring pressure to move forward, etc.? A throttle controller will allow you to set it, and leave it until you want to change it. The T.16000M can be modded of course. It's not that hard to remove the spring, but then it will just flop around... and it REALLY wants to be centered at startup in order to function properly. Without the spring in, that will be problematic. You could fashion some sort of friction hold to keep the spring-less stick from flopping around, but you'll still need to make sure it's centered at startup.

In your current budgetary limits, I'd say get the Thrustmaster HOTAS X. You can try the joystick in your right hand (it also has a twist function that could be used to control the leg turning or torso twist... you select either the stick twist or throttle's rudder rocker with a switch). Once you (most likely) conclude that driving MWO with a stick is just too frustrating, set the stick aside but keep the throttle (select the rudder rocker and use if for leg turning). Use your mouse for Torso twist and tilting up and down, and weapons fire control.

For an explanation of why off the shelf stick control sucks in MWO, search for Loc Nar's treatise on first order vs zero order controllers. It's more than you probably need to know about it , but if understanding "Why?!?" is important to your decisions, then it could save you a lot of frustration / heartache.

[StarGeezer]

Thanks very much for the quick responses so far. It's sounding like my first inclination may be the best; that is, the HOTAS X. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all averse to dropping coin on quality devices. I just didn't want to invest in a high-end controller only to find out a) it's incompatible with the game, it still doesn't perform up to my expectations, or c) the end result may be as disastrous...or more so...than it would be if I had just kept plugging away with the kb.

I haven't played flight sims in a very long time (since my Commodore Amiga days), so haven't kept up on the flight sim controller hardware end of things as they have evolved over the past decade or so. The last flight stick controller I had was an old blue Sidewinder that had a serial connector on it (USB? What's THAT?) I do have a close friend who started MWO with me, and he uses the Saitek X-52 throttle and says he loves it. His opinion carries considerable weight with me, but I'm still not prepared to sink $100+ based on a single anecdotal endorsement.

I'm certain part of this is the learning curve often alluded to. Still, there's something that feels a bit dodgy with the keyboard control of the mech's feet...I can't quite put my finger on it to articulate it, but it's there nonetheless. I think part of it is the "binary" feel of it. Illustrative of this is when I attempt something like a circle strafe. In order to keep the reticle more-or-less on target while remaining mobile, you have to constantly adjust the feet by tapping one of the direction keys. Instead of it being a smooth movement, the whole view "judders" or abruptly shifts to account for the change in bearing, subsequently throwing your aim off. I'm not at all certain if an analog controller will mitigate this at all, which explains my reluctance to initially invest in a more robust device until I get in my due diligence with regard to using a stick.

The other component is speed control, and CyBerkut got to the heart of the issue in at least one regard, that being maintaining a constant speed without babysitting the control (and yes, I did turn off Throttle Decay in options...within the first hour of gameplay.) The other side of it has to do with controlling speed in a manner which is intuitive and organic. Again, a binary-based controller (in this case tapping a keyboard key to feather your speed up or down) feels a bit clunky and doesn't quite allow for the precision of being able to, for instance, step on an accelerator pedal to vary your velocity.

I will definitely search for Loc Nar's articles you recommended. I saw some of his mechpit concepts, and am completely jealous of that level of fabrication ability!

[Hammerhai]

First of all: Welcome to the dark side. I ate the cookies. Sorry.

You most definitely want a proper throttle, preferably with rudder pedals. Holding a joystick in position is ewwwww.
With that you will most likely want to run a mouse, to avoid a lot of heartache. If I have not discouraged you from sticking... Have some cookies I hid from the mouse crowd, and doubly welcome.

Another option not mentioned is getting the CH Pro throttle, a rudder, and a mouse with 4 or 5 buttons.

Star Citizen is now in development, and Chris Roberts promised proper Joystick support. If this influences your decision, you may want to drop a bit more on a setup that is more future proof. Alpha starts in December, and game launch is hoped to be end of next year God Murphy™ permitting.

Most important: You want something that can give you analog leg control, which allows you to hold Lasers on target more easily. This is less NB with a HOTAM, more so with a stick

[Hammerhai]

Just in and of itself a throttle and analog turn control of some kind will already improve your experience tremendously.

As a way out thing: It seems the old Steel Battalion Controllers were made to work with MWO. I dimly remember Loc Nar saying the JS on that is zero order. But memory dims, alas

If he is still around, tap into Von Pilsner for more about that, they are sometimes available on e bay. It is a sexy piece of kit, but, as I say - way out for us mortals.

Edit: Just checked the prices and definitely just something "nice to know about" for real aficionados prepared to spend a lot of time on getting it to work

Edited by Hammerhai, 24 August 2013 - 12:37 PM.

[CyBerkut]

CH Products throttle is a fine piece of equipment, no doubt. While CH continues to use potentiometers instead of hall sensors for their sticks, they use *quality* potentiometers that hold up well over time. But yes, you would need to get rudder pedals to go with it. CH stuff tends to be a bit pricier, as it is well made.

On the Saitek X-52 vs X-52Pro... the throttle parts that would come in handy on MWO are essentially the same except for aesthetics. I'm pretty sure you can pick up an X-52 for under a hundred dollars... but that still leaves you needing rudder pedals. That why I recommended the TM HOTAS X for your stated budget. The rudder rocker on the HOTAS X throttle is similar to what the older Saitek X-45 and X-36 HOTAS setups had.

Now, if you could find a Saitek X-45 HOTAS in good condition, you could use that throttle without buying rudder pedals, and probably still be pretty happy.

[StarGeezer]

I found that article by Loc Nar ("Controls Demystified[?]") you mentioned, CyBerkut. Thanks, that provided a pretty decent explanation of control devices. I think in light of what I currently know, at least for now, my best bet is to test the waters with the TM HOTAS X. It'll at least get my foot in the door with the throttle control, and I can always try a stick-throttle layout in my spare time. Should it be something that holds promise, I'll start looking at the more expensive Shiney-Bits™. Thanks!

[CyBerkut]

Glad to hear you have a choice that looks good to you!

I see you're from Syracuse. I grew up in Baldwinsville.

[StarGeezer]

CyBerkut, on 25 August 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Glad to hear you have a choice that looks good to you!

I see you're from Syracuse. I grew up in Baldwinsville.

Cool, I used to go to the Red Mill Inn for dinner from time to time!

[Gremlich Johns]

Gents, I use the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and the Razer n52 and have gotten excellent results - in one match I got 800 points of damage with a HBK-4G(F) mounting an AC20 and 3xMLas (high score for the match). I can often get in excess of 500 points with that mech using that control setup (and high scorer), so a (primarily) K/B and Mouse user describing the joystick experience as atrocious is a little misguiding. Any number of factors could be the culprit behind a poor gaming experience using a joystick. I would agree that the joystick experience is spotty depending on how well you know the game and adjust your JS. Yes, the torso-twist speed of a JS is less than that of a mouse, but my scores show that it is sufficient. I do understand that I am in the minority for control setups. I always advocate using what control setup you are most comfortable with, just give some slack to the users of the ones you do not use.

[CyBerkut]

Gremlich Johns, on 25 August 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

Gents, I use the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and the Razer n52 and have gotten excellent results - in one match I got 800 points of damage with a HBK-4G(F) mounting an AC20 and 3xMLas (high score for the match). I can often get in excess of 500 points with that mech using that control setup (and high scorer), so a (primarily) K/B and Mouse user describing the joystick experience as atrocious is a little misguiding. Any number of factors could be the culprit behind a poor gaming experience using a joystick. I would agree that the joystick experience is spotty depending on how well you know the game and adjust your JS. Yes, the torso-twist speed of a JS is less than that of a mouse, but my scores show that it is sufficient. I do understand that I am in the minority for control setups. I always advocate using what control setup you are most comfortable with, just give some slack to the users of the ones you do not use.

Face it, Gremlich... you are just an exceptional pilot.

I wanted to play using the HOTAS. I put quite a lot of time into tweaking, etc. Using the mouse for a mech game was repugnant to me. But in the end, I just had to come terms with the observation that no matter what I did with settings related to the stick, the mouse gave me far better results with less practice. One of these days, I may go back and revisit it now that we have absolute axis control more readily available via joystick 2 mouse: http://atzitznet.no-...use3/index.html

But then... maybe not, if PGI doesn't put the 1st Person View-only queue back in, and keep it there for both Pub and CW drops.

As it stands now, I'm not playing MWO at all. And the only Community Warfare we have so far is in the forums and on social media.

[StarGeezer]

Thanks Gremlich. I've got one of the original Belkin N-52's here. It doesn't really lend itself to this game due to, among other things, the lack of a proper stick in favor of a D-Pad. I was considering one of the newer gamepads at some point, either the Razer incarnation of the N-52, or a Logitech G13. For MWO, however, I think a stick and/or throttle might be more to my personal liking. We'll soon find out, I just dropped the hammer on the TM HOTAS X. Should be here around Wednesday.

[evilC]

The problem with the HOTAS X is that it is such poor quality that the rudder rocker rapidly becomes useless - when you whack it from full deflection one way to another, it "locks" in the original direction (as in the reported value, not physically).

The detents are also unsuitable. They are at like 15% and 75%

Both issues are solvable - you can mod the stick to remove / move the detents, and you could upgrade the stick to hall sensors to remove the sloppy movement.

Also, for anyone wanting to play with a stick in the left hand, but not wanting to hold the stick forwards to move (ie you want "relative" throttle, not "absolute", then you can use my "Pad Throttle" app to do that for you (See sig).

[StarGeezer]

UPDATE:

The HOTAS X arrived a day earlier than anticipated (I love Amazon Prime!) I got it hooked up and set up a basic layout for the throttle.

There's only one discernible detent at 50%. There's a little play (about 1/4" range), but it's otherwise fairly smooth. The rudder rocker seems pretty solid for now, but I'll keep an eye on it to see if it starts locking. I was able to map the commonly used buttons on the throttle: align feet with torso (F), weapon groups 3-4, alpha, jump jets, and target. I may put a couple more commands on the SE and ST buttons (perhaps heat and night vision). The mouse retains turret look/aim, weapon groups 1-2, and zoom. I really should train myself to use the other buttons on the Naga, but 4 and 5 are high up on the body of the mouse and not easy to reach. To say nothing of the 12-button number pad on the side.

The behavior of the throttle is much closer to what I would expect from a responsive control than I was getting with a standard KB. I don't believe the stick will quite give me the accuracy I need for aiming, although I'd love to try just for S's & G's.
The learning curve for picking up on the throttle was much shallower than I experienced using the KB to coordinate direction and speed (i.e., I picked up on it much faster than I did with the keyboard.)

Overall, it has been a positive experiment with what is possible, and is also enough to whet my appetite for a more substantial (and consequently expensive) flight controller in the future. I'm already drafting my letter to Santa...

[EyeDie I]

just cause i found this insane link,you can try this....
http://www.amazon.co...x/dp/B00006ZCCD

[StarGeezer]

Don't laugh, I was THIS |.| close to buying one of these when it was first announced for the original XBox about a decade ago. Had I not gotten laid off just prior to finalizing the purchase, I'd likely have one of these collecting dust in a closet somewhere. For it's day, this was a cool concept. Still is, in many respects.

[Gremlich Johns]

FWIW, I got the Razer n52 Nostromo because I killed my years old Belkin Nostromo n52's D-pad by using it too much/hard. I use the d-pad for my throttle - full speed forward (number pad 9), half speed (number pad 5), full stop (number pad zero) and reverse (S).

CyBerkut, on 25 August 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Face it, Gremlich... you are just an exceptional pilot.

aw, shucks

[StarGeezer]

I may revisit a pad someday, Gremlich. For now, the throttle appears to be up to the task for the most part (and is better than the KB in any event, at least for my rather uncoordinated hands.) I'm still on the upward incline of the learning curve, so I'm sure there's much more I can do to progressively improve my game.

[EyeDie I]

i have an old thrustmaster top gun stick with a mark2 wpns controller and rudder pedals from my mw2 mercenaries days that i cant attach to my comp anymore,i dont know how to with windows7 and no game port.