131 replies to this topic

[Navy Sixes]

Koniving, on 06 September 2013 - 07:10 PM, said:

Advanced Sensor Range module level 2. Gives you 200 to 250 meters of anti-ECM capability, combine that with BAP, and ECM only works at 270 to 251 to stop your LRM lock-ons. (Numbers not exact, it's been a while.)

Hey, Koniving.
So, if ASR level 2+ BAP gives me 251-270 meters of anti-ECM, I suppose that's better than nothing (although I still contend it's a lot of work to barely circumvent op ECM). Are you sure that will stack with BAP? I know the sensor ranges stack, I mean specifically the anti-ECM feature; that was buffed into the BAP later. I've been kind of stuck where to go with my next module (and that cleaned-up advanced zoom looks pretty cool, even though I don't often snipe) so if this is in fact the case it seems like a good direction. Thanks.

[KharnZor]

nehebkau, on 06 September 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

2 ECMs render your BAP useless. Thats part of the point I'm making.

My AC20 renders your ecm useless.

[New Day]

Andross Deverow, on 06 September 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

UAV counters ecm also... ECM is fine where it is.

Regards

And imagine how much the game would be better if the UAV was just a 5t (or whatever) piece of equipment. Or coolant shot also taking weight and being an item instead of a consumable.

[Koniving]

Tycho von Gagern, on 06 September 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Hey, Koniving.
So, if ASR level 2+ BAP gives me 251-270 meters of anti-ECM, I suppose that's better than nothing (although I still contend it's a lot of work to barely circumvent op ECM). Are you sure that will stack with BAP? I know the sensor ranges stack, I mean specifically the anti-ECM feature; that was buffed into the BAP later. I've been kind of stuck where to go with my next module (and that cleaned-up advanced zoom looks pretty cool, even though I don't often snipe) so if this is in fact the case it seems like a good direction. Thanks.

They stack. Advanced Sensors gives the specific ranges if I'm not mistaken, tonight I'll look it up for you but I believe what it does is give you with advanced 2, you get (it was either 220 to 250 ECM-free or 200 to 250 ECM free) + bap. I'll look it up when I get back from work, remind me with a quote or something.

[Khobai]

They dont really "stack". Stacking implies they both do the same thing, the effects of which are additive, but that isnt really the case. Adv. Sensor and BAP do two completely different things.

1) Adv. Sensor lets you detect ECM'd mechs at 250m instead of 200m.
2) BAP counters 1 enemy ECM in disrupt mode within 150m.

With both equipped, your deadzones will be 151m-180m and 251m-270m+. Those are the ranges you wont be able to lock-on with Streaks/LRMs (And of course LRMs do no damage at all under 180m).

Edited by Khobai, 07 September 2013 - 05:21 AM.

[CravenMadness]

just make beagle burn through any number of ecm, like tag or the uav does, and it'll be fine, keep it at the same range it is now though no need to extend that range, unless you maybe put it to 250-270 so you can start locking on at max streak range. Nobody but streak users even bring beagle anyway, and even then I've found I have to actually -convince- some streak users to carry beagle. There've been so many matches where 'two' ecm mechs have been running around scrambling sensors and making my A1 useless as a support mech, or where I'm circled by a pair of ecm mechs and can just stare at them with my four streaks and one beagle... (of course that's why I carry uav in my A1... when I get swarmed, pop that **** and watch them scatter when they start getting nuked and they aren't ready for it.)

[Foxfire]

CravenMadness, on 07 September 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

just make beagle burn through any number of ecm, like tag or the uav does, and it'll be fine, keep it at the same range it is now though no need to extend that range, unless you maybe put it to 250-270 so you can start locking on at max streak range. Nobody but streak users even bring beagle anyway, and even then I've found I have to actually -convince- some streak users to carry beagle. There've been so many matches where 'two' ecm mechs have been running around scrambling sensors and making my A1 useless as a support mech, or where I'm circled by a pair of ecm mechs and can just stare at them with my four streaks and one beagle... (of course that's why I carry uav in my A1... when I get swarmed, pop that **** and watch them scatter when they start getting nuked and they aren't ready for it.)

One BAP per ECM is a good number. Don't forget that ECM also counters ECM.. The problem isn't ECM when people don't use the counter to it and there are three counters to ECM now.

[Pale Jackal]

BAP should counter all ECM within its 150m radius.

I only bring BAP as a counter to ECM, since it's other bonuses are worthless. The fact it doesn't even counter ECM that well is just ridiculous.

I love that ECM is so potent, but ECM is so light that it's an absolute no brainer to use. The only reason I don't use a Raven 3L when I want to play a light, fast 'mech is because I want to use my X-5 for its hero bonus.

[The Boz]

KharnZor, on 07 September 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

My AC20 renders your ecm useless.

Ugh, why do we even bother responding to these arguments if these are the replies we get?
"Something is only OP if it gives you 100% win chance. No, I do not understand statistics, why do you ask?"

[Scratx]

All I'm going to say about the ECM is that the biggest, by far, issue with it before the nerfs that resulted in its current condition is that you literally had no way of telling who was friend or foe if they were within a hostile ECM bubble.

Not without wading into the bubble yourself.

The current ECM is not perfect, but at least it doesn't mean you have to play russian roulette when picking targets brawling under ECM.

[Erebus Alpha]

ECM should not disrupt missile lock, only target lock.

If I have a direct line of sight to you, I should be able to shoot you with any weapon in my arsenal. You don't deserve to stop me from doing that. Missiles should be no exception.

If I sit back in a corner and vomit LRM's at people from behind cover, do I deserve to apply damage to other players who cannot retaliate against me? Absolutely not! In fact, it's questionable if we deserve to apply damage at all on the flimsy basis that 'other people are spotting'.

LRM's aren't OP, spotting is OP, and ECM is our chance to stop it, in an interesting, gameplay-related way.

ECM isn't balanced until it can be 1: equipped on every mech and 2: is not disproportionately used.

Case and point of ECM imbalance: Let's see some anonymized server data, of how many mechs with an ECM slot mount ECM. I dare the devs to release that data.

[DocBach]

Koniving, on 06 September 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

ECM should have / could have been changed very early on in its implementation as a part of information warfare, and given the theme of lies and deception through the use of ghost targets and target multiplication as well as information jamming rather than the theme of invisibility. Remember that information warfare is one of the founding principles of the game which has essentially been lost.

But take those as unhashed out ideas I came up with based on a mixture of real ECM (which can't mask you, only have you misread as being somewhere else.

In the Battletech source material, Guardian ECM does in fact have the ability to generate ghost targets. It creates a penalty to shoot against a 'Mech running in the mode but the explanation of why is because it confuses weapons locks and a pilot has to cycle through false targets to locate the actual target to get targeting data for.

Beagle Active Probe is suppose to be able to see through Ghost Targets; Beagle in turn is suppose to have an expanded utility and function somewhat like how seismics work currently in MWO, allowing targets to be detected beyond LOS and allows a unit to "probe" an enemy to find more detailed information (complete armor level, weapons locations, ammo locations, heat level). ECM blocked Beagle's ability to detect targets outside of LOS, and probe for more data.

Beagle was suppose to function as a more expanded sensor system, ECM existed to block it. In this game, ECM blocks all sensors, Beagle now counters it.

I think the information warfare pillar would have been a lot more fun if the standard template for electronic warfare was used rather than transforming it into an on-off switch for guided weapons.

[Bhael Fire]

ECM is fine.

Hasn't been a problem for a long time now.

[General Taskeen]

At close range how is my stock build supposed to use my missile systems? Can't, because fantasy-PGI-ECM ruins it. Same with my COM-5S, a record sheet build, can't use my ******** streaks because of PGI's stupid as hell fantasy ECM. OH, but no worries, the enemy can use their streaks on me, while they ECM and use the streaks on me.

Hmm, let's try and launch into a random battle with some stock 2 LRM 10's... oh {Scrap}, an ECM is shutting off my weapons, what nice wasted tonnage I've brought to battle that can be shut off with a button!

You know what, I'm sick of this ****** ECM and I should here by forthwith be given a Direct Fire Weapon Counter Measure to turn off direct fire weapons too, because reasons. It will be working as intended as I shut off all the weapons, because balance.

Edited by General Taskeen, 07 September 2013 - 09:36 PM.

[AC]

ECM was never suppose to block missile lock. PGI just made them this way because they couldn't figure out a good firing and hit mechanic for streak SRMs. So rather than fix streaks (and streak cats) they released OP ECM. Now that the streak mechanic is fixed, is there any reason to keep OP ECM? I have no problem if ECM increases the lock on time, or if it disables Art. and TAG bonus, but having this invisibility shield of missile invulnerability is quite silly at this stage of the game. ECM should do what it did in Battletech...

[GalaxyBluestar]

Bhael Fire, on 07 September 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

ECM is fine.

Hasn't been a problem for a long time now.

the fact that there are still threads being made about the overpowering, or arms race advantages this "jesus box" has made for what will soon be a year should tell you all something. there's issues with it's capabilities and further more those capabilities as deployed in the field.

conclusion, pgi won't touch it but will make more purchasable consumables to help counter it, working as intended.

[Black Ivan]

The ECM system that PGI implemented is not the Guardian ECM, but the later Angel ECM because they had no clue how to right implement the basic ECM.

The ECM problem never went away, it just became one of many problems MWO faces, from weapons boating over jump sniping to Machine Gun death critting. All flaws I expect PGI never to balance out, because they don't understand how Battletech really works.

[Bhael Fire]

GalaxyBluestar, on 07 September 2013 - 11:10 PM, said:

conclusion, pgi won't touch it but will make more purchasable consumables to help counter it, working as intended.

...and that's a problem because...

[GalaxyBluestar]

Bhael Fire, on 07 September 2013 - 11:41 PM, said:

...and that's a problem because...

money first

complete quality product? Soon™

[Bhael Fire]

GalaxyBluestar, on 08 September 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

money first

complete quality product? Soon™

WTF does that have to do with the current ECM implementation?