89 replies to this topic

[Grokmoo]

Beyond the development time, generating random maps would also cause some pretty serious loading time and bandwidth issues. It would basically mean that for every match, every player would have to download a complete map. Players would presumably already have the textures, but even downloading all that geometry would probably be too much to ask. Load times of several minutes for each match would not be uncommon.

It is for this reason that I think this idea is, unfortunately, a non-starter.

[Roland]

That's why I suggested that a modular tile-based map system could be designed, thus meaning that every map would really just consist of a fairly small configuration of components which were already known to the client machine. You wouldn't need to download the entire map, but instead would just have the server pass down a base map, and which tiles were located where, which the client could then assemble on its own end.

[Team Leader]

Going off the tiles idea, they could just make a a couple hundred squares and then write an algorithm that applies them to a planet's given criteria/environment and reskins them to fit the map. So like a jungle world would have mostly forest and river blocks and not any city blocks, but an industrialized planet might have say some parks randomly strewn about or straight up city pieces. The devs might be able to design some way to make the pieces fit together dynamically so it's not pavement straight to farmland or something. Like the skins in Spore, from what I've heard.

Edited by Team Leader, 15 June 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[Protection]

I send this as feedback to the devs, but I will mention it here.

A completely random map will usually be boring and generic, unfair or imbalanced, or strange and poorly designed for combat.

What they should do is create very large, pre-designed maps, but have about a dozen or so different spawn locations on each map. This way, each time the game begins, the two teams begin in a different location on the map, changing the centerpoint of the battle and the various routes for marching on that point. This way, you could re-use the same assets over, but have the battle roll out differently each time because the teams would not be moving in the same direction as the previous match. Camping spots and cover would have to be done much more ad hoc than pre-planned, while the maps could remain (relatively) balanced by ensuring each spawn has multiple access points and no obvious advantage (like height) over another.

[Anixantheas]

Well there is the option of what STO does, you know, the foundry.
This is essentially where there are lots of "base maps" that have things added or subtracted to them thanks to the foundry tool.
This includes flags, respawn areas, and the such.
now in order to play any of these maps all you have to do is accept the "player created content" and within a few seconds you have the scenario downloaded. Since most of these are "cookie cutter" graphics your computer can easily tell that box A, B, and C are all stacked this way at X point. makes for easy player created instances. Some of them take well over an hour to complete based on the story/ fighting involved.

Since this is Btech, there should be lots of "cookie cutter" buildings and features, the simple XYZ coords should be a simple matter.

[Schtirlitz]

Protection, on 15 June 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

A completely random map will usually be boring and generic, unfair or imbalanced, or strange and poorly designed for combat.

You have a point, but again we will have only a limited number of maps, what will be inappropriate for large universe and battles on dozens of planets. I think optimal number of maps is 3 to 4 dozens and it is a number VERY hard to reach. That's why the random generated maps will be the solution for versatility that can be relatively easy to achieve.

[Attalward]

Random maps can sometimes be a bit akward, but i prefer a thousand awkward maps than 10 artisanal maps which i know as well as my hand. playing the smae maps over and over means i already know were you hide where scouts are coming from etc.

[Birddog FAC]

Roland, on 14 June 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

I would definitely support such a thing. I was thinking about it a bit last night, in fact.

I think making it truly "randomly generated" would likely be problematic... the reality is, if you totally randomize the map, you're going to get into problems. Terrain holes, poorly balanced maps, etc.

However, I think a potential compromise which would provide some degree of randomness, while avoiding a lot of the issues with totally random maps, would be the following:

Provide a core map, with section of it broken up into tiles that can be switched out. So, in an urban environment, for instance, you could have the primary section of the city broken up into 9 large tiles, with each tile comprising maybe 9 square blocks. By swapping in different tiles or shuffling them around, you'd achieve different overall layouts for the city which would create some dynamic aspect to how individual battles may play out. At the same time, you wouldn't have to deal with creating an entirely new magical map generator.

Additionally, you could still have sections of the map remain static, such as the drop-zones or bases, and only choose to randomize certain sections. This would allow you to address balance issues by making sure that at least portions of the map which played the most critical role were statically balanced (ie.neither side started off with some major elevation advantage or something like that).


I'm guessing that this may be too hard to implement so late in the game, but perhaps it could be useful to the devs in the future development cycles.

I belive this would be the most plauseable idea i have read so far. as i dont want to see planet captures turn into the clan battles in WoT were every map has mostly set strats and are known well in advance. makeing sertain mechs almost required. i understand this will be less of an issue in this game if the designers are correct but it still worries me i would like to think end game will stay fun and fluid for quite a while.

[Steel Talon]

I think this is engine-sided, guessing PGI uses Crytek's Sandbox editor to make maps

[Thomas Beretta Steel]

Great ideas, I completely agree, a tile set for different terrains would not be that hard and would be easy to add to with each patch update, Would make for very interesting map generations.

[Schtirlitz]

Well, yeah, there are quite a problems in realization of this idea, but random generated maps can significantly vivify the game process.

[strafer]

Grokmoo, on 15 June 2012 - 10:00 AM, said:

Beyond the development time, generating random maps would also cause some pretty serious loading time and bandwidth issues. It would basically mean that for every match, every player would have to download a complete map.

Firstly, such kind of information must be packed very well. Secondly, peer-to-peer protocol can be used for decreasing server bandwidth load and accelerating map loading to the client, and in this case generating of one map for lots of combats is even more profitable: more combats → more players → more peers → higher load speed.

[Bryan Ekman]

Technically not feasible at the quality level and balance we're trying to achieve.

[00dlez]

Schtirlitz, on 14 June 2012 - 02:11 AM, said:

Pre-designed maps are good, but why not use the random generated maps? They are widely used in RTS games and even in some FPS games. There will be MANY planets in MWO universe so i think it is better to set a number of map parameters and use them to generate random maps for different planets, than to make a lot of maps for game or use a limited number of maps for all planets.

I think the pre-designed maps are must-have, but adding the random generated maps will make the game more interesting, vivid and less predetermined.

I'm not really in favor of purely random maps, it could lead to some very annoying terrain... If you are familiar, think of Mount and Blade maps that are overly mountainous - it's impossible to do anything useful on them or play tactically. Moreover, it makes planning and unit tactics difficult to implement. Sure, some might say that is a desired element where having to adapt strategies every match based on new terrain is a plus, but I'm not on of them.

[equadox]

its a double edge penny here when doing a random gen.. map if you played a lot of games that has a random map gen,, it could mean disaster, and lots of effort and work. mostly what happens in first players shooting's or everything could go right not have a problem at all. and then you have to think about if i'm going to spawn in on top of a mountion and lose my legs or am i going to spawn in water. i would like to play on random maps that we and the dev's makes. then having a the computer make one, and the other thing is that it takes time to download the random map that the computer makes then downloading ones and play. and then downloading over and over and over and wait for 10sec to 40mins so create a map and then wait for players to join in another 3 mins or so and the 5 sec no shoot rule to if you add all that up your asking like a 2mins-30mins wait time which i don't want to do. i want to play a map that been made on random and wait for 2mins and have fun.

Bryan Ekman is right with the stuff there trying to achieve wouldn't work. we be asking them to delay another 3-5 year for the game to come out.
Also oodlez is right when you in a whole different settings you are lost and you don't even know were to go. and think of some of the stuff you have to go though. hak... i don't even want to jump over lava mostly even walk though it or jumping from high placing. i almost lost my legs on these map were playing on right now, couple of times i had to soften my fall's just by using my jump jets.

but what they might do later on is possibly note is to make lots of spawn points so we can spawn random on a last one standing mod or capture the builds mod later in couple of months from now.

playing arena team match is getting a little cold and in the same area
and same maps.

the only thing we can do is
(if they are alright about it )
* help the dev on making maps (sending in paper work to them on layouts) or( make a map with a 3d software and send it in so they can render it for the game), (screen shots of a map in a 3d software and with notes of whats is this)

*give them on some in sight on what map we want next like a poll system (type, size and what in it etc..)

i don't mind playing in a big city map like the winter on were u can hide behind the enemy's base or a huge map like mw3 had but then you had the mobile repair trucks with you though or like mw4 maps. didn't really like the mw2 maps couse they were too big and too hilly and too plain were u can just snipe them across the maps.

**it would be nice though if the random map gen can stable and we didn't really had to download and wait. but when everything settles down couples of months they might do this for fun and give us a challenge for players that has exp on the stuff or put it in there and when we have the time we can just click on it for the last man standing theme. it would be a challenge for the dev and also it would be a challenge for us if they did get it too work. **

[strafer]

Bryan Ekman, on 18 June 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Technically not feasible at the quality level and balance we're trying to achieve.

I'm sad to hear this. Do this answer mean «not and never» or «not at the start, but we'll work on it»?

Random maps generation in HoMM 3 (very old game) creates balanced enough and even beautiful and homy maps (well, not without problems, which were more like avoidable bugs then method defects). Yes, this is a turn-base strategy, but some rules are versatile.
As I already said: some lack of balance will be neutralized by map lifetime for one combat.

00dlez, on 19 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

If you are familiar, think of Mount and Blade maps that are overly mountainous - it's impossible to do anything useful on them or play tactically. Moreover, it makes planning and unit tactics difficult to implement.

If truth be told MnB has very rudimentary capabilities of tactical control and AI of bots, so map generation algorithm is the last problem of this aspect. Complicated maps could be insoluble problem for bots: it's enough to remember controlling them at fortifications defence.

00dlez, on 19 June 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:

Sure, some might say that is a desired element where having to adapt strategies every match based on new terrain is a plus.

And another plus is absense of tiredness of limited set of maps.

Edited by strafer, 20 June 2012 - 07:11 PM.

[Steel Talon]

CryEngine 3 Sandbox editor probably used to create MWO maps in some form is easy to use map creation tool

OFC maps have to be tested & best ones can make it to game

Already worked with CE2 wersion, it support terrain generator but nothing close to making maps completely stand-alone

[Di Tar]

The generator for the map it seems to me a very good. This will help to equalize the balance between permanent and those players who from time to time. All recruits will be on the map. Hand-held are needed for the iconic locations in the history of the universe.

Edited by Di Tar, 21 June 2012 - 01:19 AM.

[FeverNova]

I agree. The proposal can help to randomize gameplay.

[OldTankTread]

Limited maps such as what WoT uses are a major problem for that game. It makes grinding a killer to enjoyment. I hope we get here a large variety of maps and that each of those maps may come with different 'season' to make the fighting conditions not predictable.