89 replies to this topic

[PirateNixon]

Bryan Ekman, on 18 June 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Technically not feasible at the quality level and balance we're trying to achieve.

Understandable.

What about if the maps were built similar to the Left 4 Dead maps? Where the map has a set number of variations and they are selected without players being able to tell until they see for themselves. So the map starts, there are about a dozen locations on the map where things can be different. Maybe one path through a canyon is blocked this game. Maybe one section of forest is burned out. Maybe a section of structures are already destroyed meaning I can't use them as cover.

Yes, you'd still have to balance out making sure one base doesn't get an unfair advantage via blocking of access to their base or something, but you could make some variation that would increase the importance of scout mechs and intra-team communication.

[Paul Inouye]

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAhhahahaa... haha.. ha.... wait... you were serious.

[wulogiks]

Well the idea is of course great. Playing on the same maps for 28 hours per day is definetly going to get repetitive.
Also, when players start to know the maps very well, a lot of games tend to go in a much more predictable way and there is less creative thinking and squad coordination involved, because everyone is doing "what's best" on a particular map - just look how few deviations are in say Counter-Strike game on dust 2, or a Starcraft: Brood War match on Lost Temple (or Python).
Sure it's still a lot of fun to play and of course not every game goes the same way, but the thrill of figuring out a good strategy and adjusting it based on how the match flows, as opposed to "open my handbook, go to page 42, X happed -> page 85" is gone, and that's what would make randomly generated maps incredible.


The problem is, that this stuff is apparently very hard to do from a technical standpoint.
I don't think the problems are associated with generating the maps themselves, beacuse let's be honest - a mech simulator game doesn't need a very complex or artistically designed maps.
When I'm in my big stompy mech blasting the crap out of other big stompy mechs, I have plenty of things to keep track of, and I don't really have the time (or desire) to look and appreciate how this little rock next to that tree is so gently placed that it looks so natural and it copmoses beautifuly with the background - *****, I need to watch my heat, make sure I compensate my speed well so I can fire my AC before I hide behind that cover, remeber to face my less damaged side to that incoming LRM volley, and also I think I saw a light mech behind that tree line and he's probably trying to get our support guy, so I need to adress that as well.
I think that most people (including myself) would be fine with a map that's basically: "generate a heightmap, place a bunch of doodads on it, now go and kill each other".

The main problem is probably getting these type of maps on a client side. There is just no way that a client would have a random map generator and the server just gives you bunch of seeds for it and you generate it locally - home PC don't have enough horse power to do it in a reasonable time, as opposed to loading bunch of files from a disk.

I suppose a solution would involve them having servers that speciffically are there for generating maps, so say that it would generate 40 random maps each day, so when you want to play a random map, it is already generated on their server and it is distributed to the players via combiation of streaming it while they are playing, some stuff generated on your machine + p2p between them (downloading 10 or more maps each day is probably not the best idea for people who don't have super high speed internet connection).
The thing is that they would probably need to spend a lot of time modyfing the net code and it's not gonna happen soon.

On the bright side, it is a F2P title, so assuming that we give them a steady stream of revinue and the feature is requested by a lot of players, they could possibly try to implement it some time in the future. I don't think that it is completely out of technical reach to make randomly generated maps in MWO happen, but they need to get the game out preety soon and it should be as polished as possible, and the extra stuff - well I hope they will seriously consider it in the future

[PirateNixon]

Paul Inouye, on 21 June 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAhhahahaa... haha.. ha.... wait... you were serious.

I promise, it's not that hard. Just ask a real programmer what's up.

Ohh god I'm sure the response to this is going to hurt.

[Deathwalker]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but I'm pretty sure MPBT has random generated maps like 11 YEARS AGO! so no its not unrealistic to throw out the idea that random generated maps are a good idea.

[WardenWolf]

Having maps that are both random *and* balanced, though, would be very difficult. You could also easily end up with very boring maps, etc. I think that a better approach is a few core maps that are very well done, and then varying terrain type / foliage / weather / time of day - and maybe tossing in some variations that would come up randomly (as suggested by PirateNixon, in his comparison to L4D2). You could even have several different starting / base locations, with which one each side is at somewhat randomly selected.

[Cest7]

What is this, diablo?

[Protection]

Programmer designed maps with multiple spawn locations is the way to go. It keeps it from turning into "Oh, this map again" while allowing a small company to work with limited assets.

[strafer]

Bryan Ekman, on 18 June 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

Technically not feasible at the quality level and balance we're trying to achieve.

Сould you, pls, specify what troubles are exactly? Screenshots or at least schemes would do great! We may organize some brainstorming. I'm not trying to say you aren't competent, but I believe there are many programmers and just smart guys on the forum.
You know, as they say «a problem shared is a problem halved», russian equivalent is «one head is good but two heads are better»

[Deathwalker]

WardenWolf, on 21 June 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Having maps that are both random *and* balanced, though, would be very difficult. You could also easily end up with very boring maps, etc. I think that a better approach is a few core maps that are very well done, and then varying terrain type / foliage / weather / time of day - and maybe tossing in some variations that would come up randomly (as suggested by PirateNixon, in his comparison to L4D2). You could even have several different starting / base locations, with which one each side is at somewhat randomly selected.

I'm not trying to start a flame war but who cares if the map is balanced or fair? Your gonna drop on it once and thats it. That would be the point is that you work with your Lance to overcome and win. If noone knows what the map details are then noone can camp or cheat or any of that other crap everyone complains about all the time, there is no corner to hide in.

[ELHImp]

Deathwalker, on 21 June 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

I'm not trying to start a flame war but who cares if the map is balanced or fair?

Anyway, maps will never be main problem. With pices of art instead of maps, somebody can shout "stupid team balancer, enemys have more atlases, we never gonna win". So, if somebody loose, he always can find flaws in balance to acquit himself.
But, attemps to argue with devs - even more stupid than crying "why I always droped with team of useless jenners".

[RJF Fata1ity]

Random generated maps - very good idea!

[sir Lawrence Gentleshark]

Even best of random-generated maps are inferior to trained designer-made ones. Only upside of them is their sheer quantity, which is almost infinite. In every other aspect they provide less ejoyment-most of the time they are unbalanced, lack thought-out positions to take advantage of and look downright silly.

Only possible way to get good maps without major game designer involvement is conducting map contests. And this is idea i support wholeheartedly.

[Vulpesveritas]

Paul Inouye, on 21 June 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAhhahahaa... haha.. ha.... wait... you were serious.

Maaaaaaaaaps my lord, maps. We want them to be new and fun each time my lord.

[MrMasakari]

I agree with this, what better to way to make every match different than with an unpredictable map with no predefined terrain that the match is based on (sometimes). Rush your quad gauss annihlators to the hills gogogogo.

[Vedm]

+1 For the general idea of randomising maps\resp points. Musthave. Not mentioning that I'll just wouldnt survive another WoT, actually.

"Balance" at all is quite a vague idea, just imagine using this term in a real combat... In real life it's NEVER fair. That's what makes a challenge. We just must make sure we all unlucky in more or less equal degree . So guys, don't be afraid of thinking - it doesn't hurt so much . Also as it was told before me: in combat, actually, you'll have a lot of things to think of, except for the landscape.

As for the technical issues, I'm convinced that it would be extremely hard to create any properly working tool by the release date, though comletely possible to add this feature during next couple of yers assuming any success of this project. Actually it looks real somewhere after 2013 or even 2014. Just because there are a lot of other things that must be done first by that time.

Anyway, there must be something random about MWO maps the more the better.

[strafer]

Deathwalker, on 21 June 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

I'm not trying to start a flame war but who cares if the map is balanced or fair? Your gonna drop on it once and thats it. That would be the point is that you work with your Lance to overcome and win. If noone knows what the map details are then noone can camp or cheat or any of that other crap everyone complains about all the time, there is no corner to hide in.

And evaluation of every new map will be an important part of the Game, unlike static handmade maps where all tactics and methods are already known after lots of combats, trainings and imba search at them. On this basis, unevident imbalanced random map will be in fact more balanced then theoretically balanced handmade one.

[sir Lawrence Gentleshark]

strafer, on 22 June 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

And evaluation of every new map will be an important part of the Game, unlike static handmade maps where all tactics and methods are already known after lots of combats, trainings and imba search at them. On this basis, unevident imbalanced random map will be in fact more balanced then theoretically balanced handmade one.

That includes fighting in hopelessy idiotic terrain not suited for your play, sometimes draining you of any chance for survival. Guess why most high-level players don't like randomised content in competitive environment? Because of that. And because of that all world game championships are using limited map pool in every contest. Because it helps to determine who is better, not one who is luckier with map generation.

[Steel Talon]

maybe make it poll ???

[Deathwalker]

It has already been said "no randon maps". I'm guessing engine limitations but thats fine. what my statement about random maps was ment to do was get the Devs thinking about how the static maps ARE NOT fair and the championships for "other" games use a small pool to keep it fair and see who is truely good is not true either.

sir Lawrence Gentleshark, on 22 June 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

That includes fighting in hopelessy idiotic terrain not suited for your play, sometimes draining you of any chance for survival. Guess why most high-level players don't like randomised content in competitive environment? Because of that. And because of that all world game championships are using limited map pool in every contest. Because it helps to determine who is better, not one who is luckier with map generation.

The problem with your statement is that some of us have fought in championships like CALI and CALO and didn't use hax and aimbots. Winning has nothning to do with how good you are there. Winnig has everything to do with hoow you exploit the nooks and crannies in the map. Hence my original post stating that random maps would be more fair as no one know where to camp or hide. Random spawn points do help this as you can't camp a graveyard but, after 3 months everyone will know the 5 oe so spawn points and just run there.

Edited by Deathwalker, 22 June 2012 - 02:38 PM.