89 replies to this topic

[BDThumper]

Roland, on 14 June 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

I would definitely support such a thing. I was thinking about it a bit last night, in fact.

I think making it truly "randomly generated" would likely be problematic... the reality is, if you totally randomize the map, you're going to get into problems. Terrain holes, poorly balanced maps, etc.

However, I think a potential compromise which would provide some degree of randomness, while avoiding a lot of the issues with totally random maps, would be the following:

Provide a core map, with section of it broken up into tiles that can be switched out. So, in an urban environment, for instance, you could have the primary section of the city broken up into 9 large tiles, with each tile comprising maybe 9 square blocks. By swapping in different tiles or shuffling them around, you'd achieve different overall layouts for the city which would create some dynamic aspect to how individual battles may play out. At the same time, you wouldn't have to deal with creating an entirely new magical map generator.

Additionally, you could still have sections of the map remain static, such as the drop-zones or bases, and only choose to randomize certain sections. This would allow you to address balance issues by making sure that at least portions of the map which played the most critical role were statically balanced (ie.neither side started off with some major elevation advantage or something like that).


I'm guessing that this may be too hard to implement so late in the game, but perhaps it could be useful to the devs in the future development cycles.

I agree that this would be the easiest to implement. I think about the Squad Leader games and how each of their maps are seamless. By taking a few maps and changing them around you end up with a huge selection of random maps.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

sounds neat. although it sounds like a toolset would need to be developed since that doesn't appeal to me as something standard with the cry engine-

[Steel Talon]

CryEngine support some randomized stuff, not whole map Im afraid
at least CE2 does

Edited by Steel Talon, 22 June 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[zencynic]

I think I would be more in favor of randomized elements of planned maps. For example, on the default 'hilly countryside 'map in the Light, Medium, Heavy and Assault videos, you could have some random elements like...

• Make a few of the hills vary in size / composition
  
• thicker / thinner tree zones
  
• One or two of the rocky passes through hills sometimes blocked by landslide
  
• A low point could become a lake randomly or with rain
  
• Make the map bigger or smaller at times 2000m x 2000m, 2500m x 2500m, 3000m x 3000m
  
• Forest fires
  
• Civilian non-combatants (-XP to a player for damaging/killing)
  
• Ambient temperature hotter or colder
  
• Day/Twilight/Night affecting visibility and encouraging those special view modes
  
• Sink holes in open terrain
  
• Beaver Dam on a river

[Xantha]

Some of the best games I have ever played were truly random maps. The original Diablo comes to mind (Shame they lost it in 2 and 3) and it makes for such a bigger replay value than simply changing 'difficulty' levels. Put me on the list for wanting this in MWOnline.

Part of the fun especially in light mechs would be be exploring and reporting back the landscape and details. Think about how much more fun it would be if you didn't already know all of the strategic choke points etc.

Edited by Stormfury, 22 June 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[ELHImp]

zencynic, on 22 June 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

• Beaver Dam on a river

Brilliant! It's definitely make new MW game, better than ever!

[Vulpesveritas]

A beaver on a dam? WILDLIFE? AMAZING!!!!
This is a must have; variable wildlife, not just those ape things from MW4.

[sir Lawrence Gentleshark]

Deathwalker, on 22 June 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

The problem with your statement is that some of us have fought in championships like CALI and CALO and didn't use hax and aimbots. Winning has nothning to do with how good you are there. Winnig has everything to do with hoow you exploit the nooks and crannies in the map. Hence my original post stating that random maps would be more fair as no one know where to camp or hide. Random spawn points do help this as you can't camp a graveyard but, after 3 months everyone will know the 5 oe so spawn points and just run there.

If these random-generated maps provide equal chances for at least most popular strategies, your statement is correct, championships could be held on random maps.

But there is a quirk: No RMG never produced a well-balanced map for a shooter, and to make things clearer, on presend day, there is no algorythm to create such maps on consistent basis.

Champs on badly-balanced random maps could be held only if number of games between every pair of players will exceed 100 to eliminate map randomness. I do not see this as a productive environment for competitive gameplay.

P.S. What is CALI/CALO championships, Google do not knows anything about them.

Edited by sir Lawrence Gentleshark, 23 June 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[wulogiks]

sir Lawrence Gentleshark, on 23 June 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

If these random-generated maps provide equal chances for at least most popular strategies, your statement is correct, championships could be held on random maps.

Well, the thing about championships is, that neither all of us on the forums, or the devs will know what is considered balanced and what is not. We should leave deciding that to people who play/organize high level tournaments, because they are way better at this stuff then us and the devs, so it's their decision wheater randomly gererated maps are ok as well as all other things like game format, weapon balance etc.


I don't think that anyone here that thinks that random maps are good idea thinks that they should replace human-made maps. We want them as an OPTION.

Yes, even with a great RMG they won't be as "mathematically balanced" as custom made ones - let's be honest we are talking about playing random matches with random people on the internet, and this will never get super balanced, because you can get all the map advantage you want, but if you end up with teammates that are just worse than enemy team - you are getting your *** kicked.

That's the thing - if the map is mirrored and the generator is good enough, it's not a problem for normal on-line play, because there is already so much random stuff associated with it, that randomly generated map is not a big deal (and if it's mirrored and you get to see it before you choose your mech and have a chance to talk to your teammates before the game launches - I don't see a problem at all).

sir Lawrence Gentleshark, on 23 June 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

But there is a quirk: No RMG never produced a well-balanced map for a shooter, and to make things clearer, on presend day, there is no algorythm to create such maps on consistent basis.

I don't think that a lot of you guys saying that realise, but it's not an FPS (well, you know that, but I'm talking from map design standpoint). Sure if you wanted to randomly generate an close-quaters FPS map and get the same result as CS maps or TF2 maps - of course it's not gonna happen, because there is a crap ton of parameters that they have, and making multi-depth level maps with a ton of features is a huge problem in the first place, but making them also even remotely fair is, as you pointed out, nigh impossible with current state of algorythms and technology.

But as I posted earlier - you dont need this kind of stuff in this game. Each and every map in a MW game is basically a flat terrain with bunch of things that obstruct your weapon fire and sight added. Yes sure you can't just roll the dice 90 times and make some random **** - that will suck, but I don't think that its is too difficult to do. If the generator is smart enough and generates the map progressively and the seeds for new random elements are based on results of what you just generated, like for example you don't end up with stupid **** like in CIV5 for example when you can have 2 very good strategic resources right next to each other and you get NO penalty for building a city there, but rather then if there happen to be such thing, move it closer to enemy player and make terrain very hard to defend, i think this can work.

I think that even something simple like: choose a type of symmetry, generate bunch of numbers that determine overall map features (of course they have to be related to each other so you don't end up with 2 mountains 14 forests and 42 hills and have nowhere to move), then place them on the map, adjust the distance between them (in a smart way, so you have things like: this is a strategic hill, lets make it so that a mech going 100 km/h is able to get there from start and spot incoming enemies from the other teab before he gets into LRM range), then add bunch of pre determined object patterns (small urban areas and stuff like that), place everything else on the map, apply the chosen type of symmetry, and then say to players: hey, if you want you can play on these maps (sure they won't be as good as custom made ones, but I think it is sufficient to have a blast on them).

And also - and option to say, make a party with your friends, have a random map generated for you and you have some time to study the miniature and decide on a strategy, and then get matched against other group of guys who did the same - that I think would be awesome (and again - I think it's way easier than you guys are making it).

[Deathwalker]

First off CAL stands for CyberAthelete Amateur League and the I is for invitational and the O is for open invite. It was a Half-Life : Day of Defeat championship tournament. Its was the best of the best on all of the Half-Life servers around the world.

About the Random Maps. Multiplayer Battletech 3025 had randomly generated maps. Every drop was random and ALL the players had to learn how to play their mech to the fullest. There were no bad maps because both side had to work as a team to win. look at it like the "Fog of War" some games use to cover the map til you explore it. if noone knows the map even if you at an advantage terrain wise, you still have to get out there and find the enemy. you can just sit there and go "I'm the the best spot on the map" because you don't know. thats why random maps are so damn good. its not that you might get a disadvantagous start. its that EVERYONE has to learn how to play or they will not succede

[sir Lawrence Gentleshark]

Not knowing the map des not make it better balanced. I am talking about situation when opponents match their skill muliplied on map knowledge, when as much as possible parameters are locked to ensure fair match and esape random fluctuations like bad starting position and such, because only way to counter this is letting the law of large number to kick in. With most championships having time brackets this is a really unwieldy solution.

Understand that i am not against procedurally generated maps if they wouldn't look too silly or provide boring gameplay. But i fear that creating of algorythm which creates decent maps is too expensive and will eat up devs' resources, that could be spent on improvement of core gameplay. I say that decision on random maps should be postponed until common tactics will kick in and combat scenarios will be known to developers.

[Dozer]

Well in reality a plethora of well subscribed - subscribed referring to players pledging their time and/or money to - long standing and popular online games with PvP which beg to differ with the opinion that a limited amount of maps is just too boring.

That having been said, having new maps introduced on a regular basis is a good idea, although having them 'randomly generated' would seem to throw the proverbial 'wrench' into the development process and indeed might very well take away the need for having any player feedback at all which is something I think we and the developers would really not want. No communication would very likely kill the game far quicker than anything else, at least in my mind.

Edited by Dozer, 25 June 2012 - 03:18 AM.

[IxxxI]

First, idea is old as this forum and it's mine
Second, random generation of entire map is illogical solution leading either to low quality maps (rage) or to 2-3 hours of content generation, lol. If you'd used search option before posting you would find that old topic of mine with idea of pseudo-random tactical map generation. Necroposts are... welcome

[RenegadeMaster]

IxxxI, on 26 June 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Necroposts are... welcome

I'll perform necromancy on this post since I don't want to start a new thread and get accused of beating a potentially dead horse with a new stick

sir Lawrence Gentleshark, on 24 June 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

...i fear that creating of algorithm which creates decent maps is too expensive and will eat up devs' resources, that could be spent on improvement of core gameplay. I say that decision on random maps should be postponed until common tactics will kick in and combat scenarios will be known to developers.

I agree that random map generation should be postponed until core combat (common tactics & scenarios) is well known. However, the following interview snippet with Russ shows that the "return on investment" for map generation or user submitted maps could be high:

Quote

MMORPG: The maps are amazing can you tell us what goes into designing a map for the game?
Russ Bullock: Far too much. Even with a healthy team of developers working on a single map, it can still take several months to complete to a testable level. I’m sure we will be working on at least a couple maps for MWO at any given moment for years to come.

[Source: MMORPG interview]

If it takes months to create maps, a random level generator or allowing user submitted levels (that get reviewed) would add A LOT of value to the game, and in the end Devs may be able to spend more time on other MWO features.

[Lepidoptera]

What might work well to vary the maps, is to have random objectives points on them. You have to scout to find the end result.

Edited by Prepuce, 07 July 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Sirous]

Random maps sound interesting, I have not played any FPS games that have had random maps created for them. From Battlefield to Call Of Duty(yes I played modern warfare well at least the tactical warfare mod) all of the maps are pre-loaded onto your machine and loaded from there. Battlefield Vietnam and 2's POV mod required downloading all the maps from a seperate server. Not exactly sure how it would work with the cryengine but if a random map generator created a map and we had to download a new map every round. If it was a very quick download and not a large file, it could work. Then you get into rendering issues and possible glitched areas that would not be accounted for, balancing, inaccessible areas and other issues might also arise. So on a whole a very good idea that would need some thorough testing before actually put into practice.

Now if they would release mod tools and allow users to create and submit maps for testing, that would be the best solution. Some of the best maps I have played on were user created in the Battlefield and CoD series.

As for the maps get old and once people know all the nooks and crannies of where to hide and attack, this is when things start to really get interesting. If a map is good it will always be good no matter how many times you play it. A good map will allow for all styles of play to flourish and allow the player to change styles and tactics without feeling hampered by the map. A good well balanced map will live on through the ages and only the quality of the teams will unbalance it.

[NaCly]

I am in favor of randomly generated maps. Any thing to make true team work the focal over memorizing the maps' sweat spots is good in my book. I only see them as a supplemental not as a replacement for the well-designed and balanced maps a Dev spend a lot of time to create. In any case, I have faith in the game developers to make the game as much fun as they can make it. Be it a pregenerated seed sent out to all the pilots, or a truly new map each game that needs to be downloaded.

That said, it is to my understanding that the Field Commander will be biding on the maps with some intel to decide if they can accomplish the missions' objectives. If they found a Contract that was suicide, they could just pass on it. But I would imagine that a game mechanic would be implemented to compensate us for choosing to take on harder objectives. Go in for better pay and bigger bonuses on the harder fights. Like a True Merc, I do not mind walking in to a slug fest as long as i am generously paid for it.

An incentive program could be enacted to adjust contract pay and benefits very similar to how supply and demand works. If a pregenerated map seed 416c616d6f is showing an observable statistical advantage for one side in a particular game type of Assault. The Defending teams have a win percentage of ~70%, so some thing is inherently giving them an advantage. So why would a House pay highly if all the corps want the easy jobs? The Attackers are the disadvantaged, so a House would have to pay more to draw in the more capable or foolhardy Lances to take the objective. But if the house sees the chances of success as not worth the capital then they would be forced to put it on the side lines and focus their attention on putting out feasible contracts."

The Generation algorithm for the maps need not be overly complicated, Land elevation, flora (looking at the videos the trees look like soft cover, primarily to obstruct LOS), static landmarks,defenses, objectives, and spawn markers. (Although, the attackers hot dropping on to the map where ever with a smoke trail, OMG that would look awesome in a night game.) I doubt they will release the pregenerated maps without proper safeguards that would make a map unplayable. Which goes back to the Commander bidding on the Contract with a heavy mountain seed, i would be more pissed at my commander than the "Dumb Map seed" because he did not consider our Mechs strengths and weaknesses.

[Butane9000]

I think it'd be too difficult with the engine. However randomly generated weather effects would be awesome. Currently theres such in the Frozen City map they announced but it'd be cool if in one map we fought underneath a erupting volcano which could lead to passing ash clouds and the like as well as create additional heat for us to worry about.

[light487]

Rather than randomly generated everytime you play.. I think that some kind of tile system (like has been previously suggested) that can be rearranged to allow for things to feel fresh but keeps things fairly persistent for about a month or so and then generate a whole new set of tiles to randomise for another month or so. This way you end up with new stuff every month or so but can still have the ability to get used to maps as well.. I wouldn't want to return to an old battle and find that a mountain that was there before no longer exists or isn't even in the same place.. so maybe once the tiles have been shuffled for that map, that map is now static for the rest of the month or whatever..

[Colonel Rusty Iron]

I vote 'YES' for randomly generated maps. Otherwise most of us will get sick of static maps, no matter how much of them.
And finally we will end up with something like
" go there, take the hill, hide beyond windmill, shoot, shoot, shoot again, repeat if necessary, etc."
Hope you got what I mean.

light487, on 08 July 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

Rather than randomly generated everytime you play.. I think that some kind of tile system (like has been previously suggested) that can be rearranged to allow for things to feel fresh but keeps things fairly persistent for about a month or so and then generate a whole new set of tiles to randomise for another month or so. This way you end up with new stuff every month or so but can still have the ability to get used to maps as well.. I wouldn't want to return to an old battle and find that a mountain that was there before no longer exists or isn't even in the same place.. so maybe once the tiles have been shuffled for that map, that map is now static for the rest of the month or whatever..

That's also IS a good idea. Developers, no routine please... it's boring to play same maps from month to month.