30 replies to this topic

[Nick Makiaveli]

The Boz, on 07 September 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Flawed and incomplete list is flawed and incomplete.

So you think they should just take it out of the game?

Other than that the only options are make it so big and heavy that light mechs can't use it? Yea that fits the lore.

Make it so expensive on the vets can use it? Yea that won't divide the community.

Seriously, PUGs lose to premades as a rule. Can ECM tip the balance sometimes? Sure. So what to do? Run a ECM mech yourself. Otherwise, get in a pre-made and develop a counter-strategy.

At this point, it really does sound as though you just got mugged by some Ravens in a dark alley and are mad about it. If that isn't the case, then no offense meant, but that is how you are coming across to me.

To be fair, some of the people in this thread are sounding a tad elitist, but they still make a good point.

[The Boz]

Should they remove ECM as a thing from the game? No. Careful observation of my posts will make it clear that I never said that.
Should they remove ECM functionality that it currently has and nerf it to something a little less binary hard counter clamp on information? Definitely.
And I use an ECM myself. And I don't LRM.

[Tiger Shark]

The larger issue at hand really isn't ECM's effect on LRMs.
It's about in PUG, where communication is already minimal, ECM's informational denial really harms a team that doesn't have a counter.
On larger maps, unless all 12 mechs are bunched within visual distance and not blocked by obstacles, it is hard to tell if a friendly lance engaged a group of ECM covered enemy mechs. Usually until too late. By then the engagement has ended, and one side is already heavily crippled in terms of numbers.

[Steel Claws]

The Boz, on 07 September 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

The fact that an ECM counters the only weapon that was designed to counter light mechs doesn't bother you at all?

It is at best only a partial counter to streaks. Anyone with streaks running Bap still can shoot a lot of streaks at a light - trust me I have had to run for the hills quite frequently in my raven because someone was blasting it to bits with streaks - a 5 SSRM 2 kintaro last night gave me a very rough time of it and I was only able to get him off me by leading him back to my team. He was alone so there was no one countering my ecm either. Most guys running streaks are putting on BAP now as a matter of course so they can counter ECM.

ECM doesn't make my raven immune to LRMs/SSRMs by any means. I still have lots of both shot at me all the time. It does help when scouting however, I just have to be ready to run when streak boats come calling.

Edited by Steel Claws, 07 September 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

The Boz, on 07 September 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

Should they remove ECM as a thing from the game? No. Careful observation of my posts will make it clear that I never said that.
Should they remove ECM functionality that it currently has and nerf it to something a little less binary hard counter clamp on information? Definitely.
And I use an ECM myself. And I don't LRM.

And "careful obsevation" of MY post would reveal I asked you that, not said you said it.

Also, if you so strongly think it's OP, then why do you use it? Seems a bit hypocritical.


Welcome to gaming, hope you enjoy your stay. These things take time, and if you hope to succeed, it's best to ask questions rather than make statements.

For example, if I were in your shoes I would ask is ECM OP or do I just suck at countering it? FTR, the answer in my case is I suck. My K/D ratio has a 0 after the dot. Point being, the game will always have something that is overly nerfed and something that is OP. Learn to live with it. Use the sucky weapon as skill never goes out of style, and if they ever buff the weapon you will be golden

[scJazz]

The Boz, on 07 September 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Flawed and incomplete list is flawed and incomplete.

Are you seriously suggesting that I include in the ECM Counters list...

NARC?
Double Lock Time? Even if we assume that lock time is 1 sec it gets doubled to 2 seconds.
Artemis not effective? Seriously?

So... everything to do with LRMs and SSRMs... Artemis fired SRM6s maybe... but still... it doesn't change the tone of my post just makes me add more words.

ECM is effective against... LRMs and in a few cases SSRMs... and in a much larger population... Mark I Eyeball. So... what was the problem?

[Deathlike]

ECM isn't OP, but as currently designed is just badly mangled.

Newbies are really not taught how to figure out ECM (yes, another tutorial fail), but worse is that many players that use ECM DO NOT use the Counter function of it.

ECM is effectively a must-have for the mechs that can use them, and it's not even a decision, unless you're against it or simply don't understand how powerful a tool it is.

ECM capable mechs are not invincible... but newbies trying to fight them do not know how to properly counter and understand the nuances of the mechanics, and that in itself is the #1 problem...

Problem #2 is that it makes missiles less useful, but most of the time the smart missile boaters bring the proper counters (TAG for LRMs, BAP for ECM, and the occasional PPC).

I think most people would prefer a MW4 or MW3 type system where it simply blocks Artemis/BAP/NARC bonuses instead of what we have today.

Here's a sad little known fact: NARC does actually counter ECM in this game.

Edited by Deathlike, 07 September 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[Goose]

ECM is way powerful, as it still shuts down the #1 form of communication in the game: Pressing the R key.

We are going to be getting com macros sometime after launch: If ECM so much as changes the message from "Help me with Gamma" to "Help with with <static>", they will have waisted the time of the programmer.

I'm coming to the conclusion we need a PuG-only que, and it needs to have it's own ECM rules, separate and nerfed, from the rest of the game …

[DocBach]

ECM's implementation pretty much turned Information Warfare from a design pillar with depth into a way to sell consumables to defeat it.

Instead of the electronic warfare defeating other electronics or projecting false radar signatures like it's suppose to do, it's an on and off switch for missiles. It was so balanced that all of the things that it is suppose to counter now counter it along with... PPC's.

Instead of adding a million counters, they should have buffed Beagle to work how its suppose to (like seismics, with the ability to probe a target for more in depth information), buffed NARC to allow you to track a NARC'd 'Mech -- you know, make other information warfare pieces to be useful enough to block with ECM rather than inflate ECM's utility with stealth bubbles so much that everything it is suppose to exist to counter now counters it. Instead of adding counter after counter, a better decision would have been to overhaul information warfare completely.

Now, information warfare as a result of ECM is just wasted potential and another half-delivered system we were promised when the game was announced.

Edited by DocBach, 07 September 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Pugs need to be balanced on that ****** in the atlas who always disconnects and leaves his team short a 100 ton assault.

[Tiger Shark]

I agree with Goose and DocBach here.
The usual mode of communication in PUG (and I only play PUG), is the R key and the target icon information. Without that, it is just what you can and can't see.
Having Beagle and NARC able to defeat ECM in interesting ways, not necessarily completely, would add a lot of depth into electronic warfare. ECM is 1.5 tons restricted to certain mechs, Beagle is 1.5 tons open to all mechs. The ability of Beagle to do more than it currently does would go a long way in balancing out total information blackout. If PUGs value it, they will use the 1.5 tons to carry it.
The other suggestion of a PUG queue balancing or rule of either have equal number of ECMs or no ECMs could be another way to approach it, albeit maybe too big of a blanket solution.
Once again, in pre-made teams with voice chat, being outnumbered in ECMs is much less of an issue. It only means LRM denial (which can be defeated by TAG and teamwork), but in PUG, the effect of information denial is greatly magnified.