44 replies to this topic

[Tweaks]

- EDITED FOR BETTER CLARITY -

Let's face it, some MC-only consumable modules are better than their CBills counterparts, and it's meant that way. Even though you can unlock certain Pilot Skills to make CBill only consumables as good as their MC-only version, he GXP required takes an insane amount of time to grind without paying a Premium Account or paying to convert 'Mech XP into GXP.

I arguably call this disadvantage "Pay To Win" (or "Pay To Win Now"), because a new player that has the wallet to pay for all of his MC-only consumables, which are up to twice as good as their CBill-only counterpart, will have a huge advantage in battle over non-paying veteran players who preferred the very slow grind it takes to get the equivalent without using MC.

I find that for casual players, the current grind is way too long to counter the better modules that can be purchased with MC.

Take this simple math as an example:

I personally do around 1000 XP per match using a Premium Account. Only 5% of that XP is converted to GXP, which means 50 GXP per match that I do 1000XP. Keep in mind I that a match I'll lose will be more around 600XP. It takes 15,000 GXP to unlock the Cool Shot 9 by 9 pilot skill that will make the Cool Shot 9 as good as the MC-only Cool Shot 18. Since I'm a dad, I don't have as much time as some other players and can only pay in average 6 matches a day. This means it will take me over 300 matches before I can unlock it, and at the rate I can play, this means over 1 month (50 days) if I keep paying my Premium Account. Without Premium, it would be a lot more.

That is just for a single unlock, now imagine unlocking all 4 consumable type boosts...

One way to smooth out this disadvantage would be to grant a small amount of MC after every match, based on how well you have performed, in addition to the small amount of GXP that is granted.

The amount would be minimal, and would only be attributed for winning matches, and would also require a minimum number of team assist points or team oriented points. In other words, only the best team players would get them as an extra reward.

The amount could average around 10-50 MC maximum. Players who still prefer paying for those items until they have been able to grind the GXP it takes to unlock the corresponding Pilot Skills would still have a slight advantage over non-paying players by cutting down on their grind significantly, but the gap between paying and non-paying players wouldn't be as wide.

Other games did it, such as World Of Tanks which grants gold for winning Clan Wars, and they even went a step further by allowing players to purchase any gold-only module or equipment with credits. Why not learn from this and apply the same to MWO as well?

Edited by Tweaks, 07 September 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[Scav3ng3r]

Tweaks, on 07 September 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Let's face it, some MC-only modules are better than their CBills counterparts, and it's meant that way. To reduce the impact of the "Pay to Win" aspect of this game (even though it's not as bad as other games), we should be getting a small amount of MC after every match, based on performance.

The amount would be minimal, and would only be attributed for winning matches, and would also require a minimum number of team assist points or team oriented points. In other words, only the best team players would get them as an extra reward.

The amount could average around 10-50 MC maximum. The goal is not to make it so someone can easily grind to purchase a Hero 'Mech without paying real money for it, but to be able to do so after working hard for it.

Otthose ames did it, such as World Of Tanks which grants gold for winning Clan Wars, atsp they even went a step further by allowing players to purchase any gold-only module or equipment with credits. Why not learn from this and apply the same to MWO?

No. There is nothing in the game you cant get for free that you can get with mc except for hero and champion mechs And those aren't Pay to win. You can get the same effect from mc consumables as you can from spending gxp and cbills. Giving away mc after each win would be like throwing money away. This game needs to make money and offering mechs with exp boosts chill boosts offering expendables without having to spend gxp and cbills and cosmetic stuff is how they do it. If you don't like the buisness model don't play but asking for free money is ridiculous. Maybe if this game had gold ammo and it was needed to be competitive it would be different but this is not nor will it ever be WoT so deal with it.

Edit: my phone thinks words are hard.

Edited by Scav3ng3r, 07 September 2013 - 09:23 AM.

[Tolkien]

Tweaks, on 07 September 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Let's face it, some MC-only modules are better than their CBills counterparts, and it's meant that way. To reduce the impact of the "Pay to Win" aspect of this game (even though it's not as bad as other games), we should be getting a small amount of MC after every match, based on performance.

The amount would be minimal, and would only be attributed for winning matches, and would also require a minimum number of team assist points or team oriented points. In other words, only the best team players would get them as an extra reward.

The amount could average around 10-50 MC maximum. The goal is not to make it so someone can easily grind to purchase a Hero 'Mech without paying real money for it, but to be able to do so after working hard for it.

Other games did it, such as World Of Tanks which grants gold for winning Clan Wars, and they even went a step further by allowing players to purchase any gold-only module or equipment with credits. Why not learn from this and apply the same to MWO?

Hi Tweaks,

As far as I can tell every single MC module has a Cbill equivalent. The Cbill equivalents require you to earn a lot of GXP to unlock their upgrades to make them equivalent to the MC versions. Also you can afford to replace a consumable even after a loss (barely) so it's hard to call that pay to win.

With hero mechs you are right in that they are unique builds that cannot be had with Cbills. PGI has backed themselves into the corner with hero mechs since they have to be good builds to sell well, thereby making them have shades of pay to win. If they just had an XP and Cbill earnings bonus plus cammo that would be a lot better than having custom builds.

I was hoping they would take the high road and go the route of LoL where it's just XP/Cbill earnings boosts and skins/cammos.

[Tweaks]

Scav3ng3r, on 07 September 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

No. There is nothing in the game you cant get for free that you can get with mc except for hero and champion mechs

You are wrong. Cool Shot 18 can only be purchased with MC, and cools twice the amount of heat than the best CBills only version Cool Shot 9. How is that not "Pay To Win"?

Same with Artillery Strike versus Priority Artillery Strike. The MC version has 10 shells over 4 seconds, and the CBills version has 6 shells over 5 seconds. How is that not Pay To Win?

Each consumable module has an MC-only version which is sometimes up to twice as good as the CBills version.

As for the Hero 'Mechs, I wasn't talking about that. If you read my OP I was mainly referring to MODULES.

As for GXP unlocks, look at the costs... They will take me several months to unlock them all before I can get the equivalent to MC-only modules, and it's the same for every new player. I mean 15,000 GXP? Come on! I may be a founder, but I haven't played much since the open beta started so that means all my stats and skills were reset. The only way to speed up the gaining of GXP is to spend MC to convert 'Mech XP to GXP, which makes it Pay To Win also.

Edited by Tweaks, 07 September 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[Tolkien]

Tweaks, on 07 September 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

You are wrong. Cool Shot 18 can only be purchased with MC, and cools twice the amount of heat than the best CBills only version Cool Shot 9. How is that not "Pay To Win"?

Same with Artillery Strike versus Priority Artillery Strike. The MC version has 10 shells over 4 seconds, and the CBills version has 6 shells over 5 seconds. How is that not Pay To Win?

Each consumable module has an MC-only version which is sometimes up to twice as good as the CBills version.

As for the Hero 'Mechs, I wasn't talking about that. If you read my OP I was only referring to MODULES.

As for GXP unlocks, look at the costs... They will take me several months to unlock them all before I can get the equivalent to MC-only modules, and it's the same for every new player. I may be a founder, but I haven't played much since the open beta started so that means all my stats and skills were reset. The only way to speed up the gaining of GXP is to spend MC to convert 'Mech XP to GXP, which makes it Pay To Win also.

Go to your pilot lab, then go to pilot trees, then go to consumables.

You will see that there is an upgrade there called 'cool shot 9 by 9' That "Upgrades cool shot 9 to do an additional 9 heat per second cooling for a total of 18."

This makes the Cool shot 9 into a 9by9 which cools 18 in 1 module slot and is *exactly* the same as a cool shot 18.

There are similar upgrades to all consumables to make the Cbill version exactly the same functionally as the MC version.


Taking a long time is not pay to win, it's pay for convenience.

Edited by Tolkien, 07 September 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Tweaks]

Tolkien, on 07 September 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Go to your pilot lab, then go to pilot trees, then go to consumables.

You will see that there is an upgrade there called 'cool shot 9 by 9' That "Upgrades cool shot 9 to do an additional 9 heat per second cooling for a total of 18."

This makes the Cool shot 9 into a 9by9 which cools 18 in 1 module slot and is *exactly* the same as a cool shot 18.

There are similar upgrades to all consumables to make the Cbill version exactly the same functionally as the MC version.

15,000 GXP is hardly easy to get, and will take months unless I pay MC to convert 'Mech XP to GXP. So... Pay To Win. The amount of GXP you get per match is way too low or the price of those unlocks is way to high.

[Scav3ng3r]

Tolkien, on 07 September 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Taking a long time is not pay to win, it's pay for convenience.

This concept is apparently called pay to win by people who "know better" than we do Tolkien. I wish there was so.e kind of IQ and reading comprehension test required in order to be able to post on these forums. There might actually be far less of these kinds of threads.

[Mackman]

Tweaks, on 07 September 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

15,000 GXP is hardly easy to get, and will take months unless I pay MC to convert 'Mech XP to GXP. So... Pay To Win. The amount of GXP you get per match is way too low or the price of those unlocks is way to high.

"I was wrong earlier because I couldn't be bothered to look up basic information, so now I'm covering it up by being upset about something else."

[DrxAbstract]

Tweaks, on 07 September 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

15,000 GXP is hardly easy to get, and will take months unless I pay MC to convert 'Mech XP to GXP. So... Pay To Win. The amount of GXP you get per match is way too low or the price of those unlocks is way to high.

Pay to win is defined as having an advantage over others that cannot be obtained by means other than monetary investment.

Every MC Module has a C-Bill+GXP investment counterpart that provides equivalent effects. That is, by definition, not Pay to Win. Investing money in MWO is strictly for aesthetics, variety and convenience. When it comes down to actual combat, there are no components, modules or weapons obtainable through funds that offer any advantage over their counterparts. Hero Mechs are, by and large, a grey area - most of them are worse than the C-Bill variants while the rest offer simply a different perspective from the same chassis.

TL;DR - Game is not Pay to Win.

[Tweaks]

Wow you're all quite thick about it are you? No, I didn't know that you could purchase pilot skill unlocks to make the CBill-only consumable modules equivalent to their MC-only counterpart. Sorry for being ignorant. This was not lazyness and has nothing to do with my IQ you ******!

Point is, 15,000 GXP is way too expensive. 5% of total XP gained in a match is converted into GXP. In average, I get around 1000 XP a match, more or less depending on my performance, and that is with a Premium account (something I pay for with real money so I have an advantage over non-paying players). 5% of 1000 is 50. 15,000 / 50 = 300. This means at this rate, I will need to play over 300 matches where I do good, while paying 30$/month to have a Premium account, just to be able to purchase ONE of the GXP unlocks to make the Cool Shot 9 as good as the Cool Shot 18. I usually play in average around 6 matches a day because I don't have time for more (I'm a dad). This means it will take me roughly 50 days at this rhythm to get that much GXP. If I don't pay the Premium Account, it would take twice as long. How is this fair exactly?

Call it what you want, but if you can cut down the time it takes to unlock something from nearly 2 months to a single minute, regardless how simply "convenient" it is to you, everyone that paid for theirs do have the advantage, at least until other players can manage to grind up to it very slowly. It's some form of Pay To Win whether you want it or not, even if it's indirect.

[Scav3ng3r]

Tweaks, on 07 September 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Wow you're all quite thick about it are you? No, I didn't know that

Call it what you want, but if you can cut down the time it takes to unlock something from nearly 2 months to a single minute, regardless how simply "convenient" it is to you, everyone that paid for theirs do have the advantage, at least until other players can manage to grind up to it very slowly. It's some form of Pay To Win whether you want it or not, even if it's indirect.

/facepalm

[Cybermech]

tweaks, you should relabel your title to better suit you point.
even though it ain't p2w since the options are there to grind.
however it does mean that players who don't have the gxp to purchase the better coolshot is a different conversation.
hence why I suggest you relabel your title.

[Tweaks]

Cybermech, on 07 September 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

tweaks, you should relabel your title to better suit you point.
even though it ain't p2w since the options are there to grind.
however it does mean that players who don't have the gxp to purchase the better coolshot is a different conversation.
hence why I suggest you relabel your title.

Now that's constructive. Thank you. I'll think of another title.

[Cybermech]

np's and tbh not having new players with out some form of seismic sensor is way more important then coolshot.
its a personal thing...

[Tweaks]

Cybermech, on 07 September 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

np's and tbh not having new players with out some form of seismic sensor is way more important then coolshot.
its a personal thing...

I've edited the title and the OP as well. Is this better?

[Cybermech]

if they put MC into a free earning system that means those who pay for things would have to pay more to allow for the open MC market that you are describing with the title

I do agree that "dads" have more important bills and less time to grind then others.
If you both a years premium package, you don't get any extra's out of it and is where I think you can pull a lot more cash out of people and make them happy about it too.
It is not designed for the old folks and is par with the bigger fps games out there.

"Other games did it, such as World Of Tanks which grants gold for winning Clan Wars, and they even went a step further by allowing players to purchase any gold-only module or equipment with credits. Why not learn from this and apply the same to MWO as well?"

this is something a lot of people are trying to make sure it doesn't happen.

[Tolkien]

Personally while I don't have a problem with the c bill consumables (think they should be cheaper....) I do not like mech bays being MC only nor hero mechs being MC only.

In League of Legends which I think is the friendliest F2P game, only skins, and boosts are pay items (I can't remember can rune pages be bought with IP?)

Anyway, there's a lot of grind there but I like that it is only cosmetic in LoL while here and in WoT there are certain vehicles that you can only get with cash.

[shellashock]

Actually, I would say that the better comparison would be the WoWp (World of Warplanes) beta. You get 50 credits (equivalent to 50 gold, MC, whatever), for winning a battle with a maximum of 10 wins in a day. This is before the new economy changes btw, where they made getting credits even easier by shooting down a plane or destroying a ground target, etc. If MW:O did this though, it should be only for the duration of beta and should be terminated once it hits release. After release, it might be a nice idea to have small MC rewards for winning a battle or planet or whatever = a win in CW.

[Tweaks]

Cybermech, on 07 September 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

if they put MC into a free earning system that means those who pay for things would have to pay more to allow for the open MC market that you are describing with the title

I do agree that "dads" have more important bills and less time to grind then others.
If you both a years premium package, you don't get any extra's out of it and is where I think you can pull a lot more cash out of people and make them happy about it too.
It is not designed for the old folks and is par with the bigger fps games out there.

Not necessarily. It all depends how they balance it. The same people that want to avoid the grind will still pay the same things they do now simply because they can and don't want to wait for it. While some may differ to the slower grind of MC, most will keep their purchasing habit. The only difference is that the ones who never could afford to spend real money for MC will have a chance to get somewhat leveled with paying players. Thus truly nullifying any notion of "Pay To Win" from this game.

I also think you're wrong when you say this game wasn't meant for old folks. First, I'm not old; I'm 35. Second, all of the most hardcore veterans of MechWarrior, which is precisely the main target group of this game, are old folks my age or much older than me in fact. All the youngsters who started to appear in MWO only did because they have heard great things about it from older players, but they are not the ones who this game was shaped and developed for in the beginning, and by far. At least it didn't use to be. Some aspects of the game did change since closed beta to make it more "arcadish" and more appealing to young console game players, but I think old folks like you call us, still have a big place in this game. They are also the ones who can usually pay more too, but since most of us are dads or moms by now, and not all of us make over 80k a year, they need to consider this in their Free to Play model as well.

I think ignoring that fact would be a great mistake for PGI to make.

Cybermech, on 07 September 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

"Other games did it, such as World Of Tanks which grants gold for winning Clan Wars, and they even went a step further by allowing players to purchase any gold-only module or equipment with credits. Why not learn from this and apply the same to MWO as well?"

this is something a lot of people are trying to make sure it doesn't happen.

Buy why? For having played a lot and payed a lot of real money for World of Tanks before they allowed to buy gold ammo with credits, I can vouch that it was one of the best thing they did. That game was truly Pay To Win before, and nobody denied it. It's no longer that thanks to that change they made, and it's not that hard to grind enough credits to be able to afford gold ammo. The ones also playing Clan Wars have a good way to avoid paying for gold as well if they prefer to grind it.

Free to play is a nice concept, but if they don't tone their model down a bit, they will soon notice a trend where players will spend in burst at the beginning and then either stop playing completely or won't pay another penny for a very long time because they've attained a skill level they are comfortable with, and/or they realized that they have spent way too much and need to calm down or their wife will kill them (this is a joke, but it's also true for a lot of us). I know I've been there, and I'm not the only one.

Edited by Tweaks, 07 September 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[UnwantedProblem]

Hello,
I don't think giving away mc for free for a win or whatever reason is fair for people who already paid a lot of money to get mc.

I not the best player in the world, but I make 1300 exp per win (average) WITHOUT PREMIUM ACCOUNT. (with looses I make 500 or 600 exp on average... good team->win, or epic fail teams...).

A good way to solve this problem would be decrease the amount of gxp required for modules, the prices are just insane.

And is not pay to win, someone said it above, but Pay to Win is when you can get something that gives you advantages by paying real money, and there are no other means to obtain that something.

Also, hero mechs, I don't see much of them in the battle field, I find cicadas being a very big jenner, but without jumpjets, TDK doesn't have ECM nor jumpjets and only 4 lazor points, so Jenners are far better (even Spider 5D with 3 lazors and ECM is better). The wang, well, that an AC20 centurion, other than that, just trash, the others are better, Golden boy is thrash xD. The Missery is good, very good sniper and Long range support, but, you always have to give away something. Dragons are pretty out of the meta right now, so, no flame, no fang. I like the Firebrand, Energy points on arms, really good sniper, I haven't see much of them tough, The Ilya is good, is different from the other phracts, that doesn't make it better. Pretty baby, it's a f**** awesome, awesome are trash right now... Dragon slayer, well different build from the other victors, doesn't make it better than the other either. Heavy metal, it's the same that the other Highlanders... The protector, I think is the black sheep of the family, well, there are no other orion in game, but, the hard point layout, don't like it...

So, Hero mechs, there are good, bad, and horrible, (and some are just trash). By no means I'm saying that there are variants of the same chassis that can do the same thing that their hero variants, that's because they are different, and they are meant to be built the same way. It's like trying to duel an atlas with a jenner face to face (no hit and run, tank the damage) jenners are not build to do that.

I don't think is pay to win.


(Also, coolant is pretty lame, and very dependent on the situation)