81 replies to this topic

[LordVanquish]

If you are going 74 kph in a hunchback, you will just die as soon as something heavier just looks at you. Lights can run circles around you without problems. You move slower than almost all catphracts and Jagers. You will not survive an encounter with either. Hell, a Victor can run you down with no problems.

I'm not saying you can't have a good game from time to time in damn near anything you wish to drive, but getting consistent good results vs good players is another matter entirely.

Lights have amazing speed, agility, hitboxes, and "lag shield"
Heavies/assault have durability and firepower

currently, the HBKs don't have the speed of a light, while having less firepower, durability, AND in a lot of cases also speed, compared to a heavy. If this is not gimping yourself, I don't know what is.

[Rhaythe]

I just don't feel like I'm having the same issues you are with the chassis. I can and have gone toe-to-toe with pretty much any unit in the game in my 4G and come away victorious (AC20 goes a long way in that). Yes, I have bad games with it; same with any chassis. But it's easily one of my better performers according to the stats page.

You and I might just have drastically different play styles with the unit. I certainly play the Hunchback differently than I would the Jager, for example.

[LordVanquish]

The difference is in expectations. Most people are happy to be killing one mech a game.
I'm pretty upset if I don't get at minimum 3 kills in any PUG game (if I die). You can not do that consistently with a HBK whereas I could with other mechs.

Here's my stats with the BJ and the Jager (which I drive mostly nowadays). The stats with my BJs are lower because I haven't been running them in a long time and I just re-joined the game only 2 months ago. I'm only including this here to show you I'm not saying things randomly. I also don't run cheese builds (cheeselanders, etc.) so my KDR won't be as high as those people.

                                        JAGERMECH JM6-DD                            165                            95                            69                            1.38                            315                            95                            3.32                            
74,188                
                                        221,811                            15:26:27                                          
JAGERMECH JM6-A                            72                            39                            33                            1.18                            137                            40                            3.43                            
29,405                
                                        97,234                            07:19:07                                            
JAGERMECH JM6-S                            141                            80                            60                            1.33                            253                            80                            3.16                            
58,652                
                                        188,631                            13:26:31                                            
BLACKJACK BJ-1                            36                            22                            14                            1.57                            45                            20                            2.25                            
9,626                
                                        38,716                            03:19:54                                          
BLACKJACK BJ-1DC                            44                            17                            26                            0.65                            60                            29                            2.07                            
12,423                
                                        45,018                            04:05:46                                            
BLACKJACK BJ-1X                            130                            100                            30                            3.33                            95                            45                            2.11                            
28,127                
                                        129,057                            11:22:59

Edited by LordVanquish, 09 September 2013 - 07:27 AM.

[DaZur]

What to do?

Simple solution is what any profit center does when merchandise becomes obsolete or superseded... You reduce the price-point making it more enticing to frugal buyers...

PGI has all the metrics on mech sales... When a mech chassis goes stale / no longer sells... They either drop the price point or put it on sale. There will always be folks who are looking for a bargain, obsolete or not...

The premise that we should never have mechs that will not be superseded by newer / better mechs is laugh-out-loud ridiculous.

Edited by DaZur, 09 September 2013 - 07:34 AM.

[LordVanquish]

^
Pricing is a stupid, stupid way to balance a competitive game.
Ideally, all mechs should have a niche in which it is viable or outshine other mechs.
Making a mech subpar and cheaper is just stupid. It is a waste of space on a team, and no one but new pilots will ever use them. Imagine how much fun new pilots will have using a POS mech!! YAY, better KDR for the rest of us?

[MeiSooHaityu]

LordVanquish, on 09 September 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

The difference is in expectations. Most people are happy to be killing one mech a game.
I'm pretty upset if I don't get at minimum 3 kills in any PUG game (if I die). You can not do that consistently with a HBK whereas I could with other mechs.

Lord Vanquish is kind of right though. I still defend the Hunchback to death because I like the mech and I do fairly well with it (1.3KDR 4G and 1.7KDR 4P)...HOWEVER, at it's peak, my Jager was averaging 2.7KDR. Do I like the Hunch better...actually yes, however I cannot deny that my Jager was giving me better results (on average 1 extra kill a match).

This is why I get this argument. How can a Hunch (or many Mediums) be not obsolete when there is other setups that do tend to out kill it (atleast average 1 extra kill for me).

Thing is, I suppose my definition is different. I look at the fact that (when PUGing) My Hunch's still exceeds 1KDR. To me, that is the defacto measurement for effectiveness. As long as you are over 1, you are not a liability to your team. If you are an asset, then you can not be obsolete or useless.

Still, It is clear that some mechs and weapon loadouts are better than others, but I prefer to play what I like (this is a game after all). I like variety and a dual A/C20 every match might have brought me some joy, but it got SO boring. Give me a Hunch and let me try for that good match. I find the victories FAR more rewarding.

[Mercworks]

I'm sorry...did the AC20 get nerfed when I wasn't looking. Ok, seriously, I tried playing a Hunchback for a while, and it just didn't suit my style. I much prefer Centurions with their arm mounted weapons over the torso mounted weapons of the Hunchie. On the other hand, I realize that was my problem, and not the mechs ( and a great case can be made that torso mounted AC20s are better, and certainly more durable, than arm mounted whatevers). If you don't like the Hunchie, don't pilot it, but nothing has changed so much that it's no longer a viable mech.

[ShadowbaneX]

Kennoir, on 08 September 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:

Superior Mechs? Name one. It is not the Mech. Its the Pilot!

I'll largely agree with this statement, but to play the Devil's Advocate you could argue that the Shadow Hawk is superior to the Hunchback in just about every way. You can strip out the AC/5 to mount an AC/20, and it's possible that the cannon mount is going to be harder to hit than the Hunchy's...hunch. It's got jump jets for better maneuverability and the largest engine a hunchback can mount is the standard engine for the Shadow Hawk. Being 5 tons heavier means it's also got a bit more armour and room to mount equipment.

The only thing that the Hunchback has over the Shadow Hawk is that it has more energy hard points, and even then, the SHD-2D2 will have at least a pair of them, so it won't be too far behind the HBK-4G and all the SHD variants will be able to mount more missiles than any of the Hunchback variants.

[DaZur]

LordVanquish, on 09 September 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

^
Pricing is a stupid, stupid way to balance a competitive game.
Ideally, all mechs should have a niche in which it is viable or outshine other mechs.
Making a mech sub-par and cheaper is just stupid. It is a waste of space on a team, and no one but new pilots will ever use them. Imagine how much fun new pilots will have using a POS mech!! YAY, better KDR for the rest of us?

Sorry... you've got your "competitive minded player" blinders on.

My suggestion is not "balancing" anything... It's nothing more than automatic supply and demand mechanics. Making obsolete mechs "cheaper" keeps them from gathering dust... nothing more. Hell, I'd even go so far as offer bonus spiffs for running non-optimum chassis, further encouraging battlefield diversity.

You can't magically make a sub-optimal build viable under some vague "balance" premise. There is no way to mitigate technological fall-off and "pretend" certain mechs will not be rendered obsolete.

Top-tier migration and/or "arms race" mentality is greater catalyst to a mech being perceived as obsolete than their actual battlefield viability...

A good pilot can be competitive in any mech... Lazy pilots insist in order to "keep up the Jones" they are required to migrate to what ever is the FOTM lest they fall behind the curve.

Mechs don't become obsolete until everyone believes / agrees they are...

[LordVanquish]

DaZur, on 09 September 2013 - 09:10 AM, said:

Sorry... you've got your "competitive minded player" blinders on.

My suggestion is not "balancing" anything... It's nothing more than automatic supply and demand mechanics. Making obsolete mechs "cheaper" keeps them from gathering dust... nothing more. Hell, I'd even go so far as offer bonus spiffs for running non-optimum chassis, further encouraging battlefield diversity.

You can't magically make a sub-optimal build viable under some vague "balance" premise. There is no way to mitigate technological fall-off and "pretend" certain mechs will not be rendered obsolete.

Top-tier migration and/or "arms race" mentality is greater catalyst to a mech being perceived as obsolete than their actual battlefield viability...

A good pilot can be competitive in any mech... Lazy pilots insist in order to "keep up the Jones" they are required to migrate to what ever is the FOTM lest they fall behind the curve.

Mechs don't become obsolete until everyone believes / agrees they are...

What would cheaper mechs serve? That they are cheaper and no one still uses them because no one would willingly gimp themselves?

No one is arguing over sub-optimal BUILDS. If a build is bad, it is bad and nothing can be done about it until you change the BUILD. We are discussing the viability of an entire CHASSIS. If a CHASSIS eg, Hunchback, can't do anything that other mechs can do better, the HBK is obsolete until it gets buffed. If not, it will just simply not be used. \

Making it cheaper just because it sucks is not a good solution. This game is not a RTS or Economy game like Eve, in this game each pilot can only pilot ONE mech in each game. Why would anyone use a crappier mech on purpose? C-Bills is not THAT hard to come by so someone would say "ohh, I'll throw away a few million c-bills for this ****** mech" when they can save up even double that amount for a decent mech.

If a mech is sub-par and "obsolete," it is PGI's job to put it back onto the playing field. It must do SOMETHING that other mechs mech's can't do better, even if it is a worse mech over all. The AWS, HBK, CMD can't do anything that other mechs can't do better.

"A good pilot can be competitive in any mech..." <-- this is such a fallacy. Sure that's true, but a good pilot can be even BETTER in a GOOD mech.[


Why don't you see many HBKs anymore? or AWSs or CMDs? It's because they are not up to par with their competitors. That's why they need to be looked at and fixed. No serious pilot would take an AWS in a competitive match, even if it was a cheap as a Jenner.

Edited by LordVanquish, 09 September 2013 - 09:27 AM.

[LordVanquish]

And for the record, I'm not arguing that the Hunchie is an un-viable or obsolete mech.

I'm arguing that it is a sub-optimal mech which gets outshined by other mechs filling the exact same role. By extension that makes the hunchie obsolete in competitive matches / tournaments, etc.

[Rhaythe]

LordVanquish, on 09 September 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

And for the record, I'm not arguing that the Hunchie is an un-viable or obsolete mech.

I'm arguing that it is a sub-optimal mech which gets outshined by other mechs filling the exact same role. By extension that makes the hunchie obsolete in competitive matches / tournaments, etc.

The Hunchback has swagger. Your argument is irrelevant.

[DaZur]

LordVanquish, on 09 September 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

And for the record, I'm not arguing that the Hunchie is an un-viable or obsolete mech.

I'm arguing that it is a sub-optimal mech which gets outshined by other mechs filling the exact same role. By extension that makes the hunchie obsolete in competitive matches / tournaments, etc.

Understood... But what your proposing is essentially artificially buffing these sub-optimal chassis to mitigate something that is completely natural in the grand scheme of things...

It's a slippery slope... One that leads to generalizing diversity in the name of maintaining some arbitrary competitive viability equivalency.

While it's pure hyperbole, the single MG Commando analogy as a long-term outcome is not an entirely irrational argument.

Simply put... efforts to buff / change sub-optimal mechs so they are are equally viable as any other mech mitigates unique qualities and effectively creates a boring homogeneous competitive environment where save for geometry and particle effects... all mechs within each class are pretty much the same...

[WildeKarde]

LordVanquish, on 09 September 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

And for the record, I'm not arguing that the Hunchie is an un-viable or obsolete mech.

I'm arguing that it is a sub-optimal mech which gets outshined by other mechs filling the exact same role. By extension that makes the hunchie obsolete in competitive matches / tournaments, etc.

Not everyone picks a mech purely on being the optimal mech, some of us play mechs as we enjoy it. Strange concept I know but sometimes a game should be played for fun.

If we were only being "optimal" we could just bin all the mechs except the one that shows the best KDR and everyone has to play that. That way everyone would be piloting the "best" mech, but you know sometimes the "obsolete" mechs overcome those who seeks to show they are better.

I still play HBK's and if I owned as AWS then I'd be happy playing that. Can't even say I've ever built my mech based on the FOTM build either.

[LordVanquish]

Nowhere do I state I run mechs just because I can get the best KDR and are the most optimal.
If that was the case, everyone would probably still be running highlanders, which I do not even own right now.

That's fine if you are playing a mech that is fun for you, even if it is not up to par. I'm sure you would rebel against PGI making that same "fun" mech even better right?

The HBK was the most fun mech for me.. back in closed beta. Then they nerfed it and it is rarely seen nowadays. I'm asking for slight buffs on it so it would be more usable and more competitive with the other mechs nowadays. Is that wrong?

And for Dazur: I'm not saying they should make the HBK the same as every other mech. I'm saying it should be on a level playing field. Same power =/= same. The HBK have its uniqueness, but that currently is not enough to make it stand out, unless you think "uniquely bad" is a good quality.

[Randalf Yorgen]

HunchbackCenturion, on 08 September 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

^^That's most of what this thread is.
Personally, I've owned and mastered three of the hunchies but I haven't played them in a couple of months.
The BJ-1 is faster, it has jumpjets, and it's so much smaller and harder to hit. (with an ac/20 in the arm and not the torso!)
Whenever I see a group of enemies with a hunchback mixed in, I often focus on that hunch. It's just so easy hit them. They're like lego men.

The agility boost that mediums received was very small but was hopefully a sample of upcoming buffs.
Maybe the hunchbacks will have their day in the sun eventually?

Then today is the day, and it is rather sunny outside.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Hunchback_IIC

Already in production, Battle tested and soon to be widely deployed through out the Inner Sphere. Notice the STOCK 2 X A/C 20. Because it's stock it should have no ghost heat, right PGI, STOCK Mechs (like the Awesome 8Q) would have been designed to allow for full heat venting so Stock builds should not suffer Ghost Heat.... Right PGI?

Edit, unless the TRO's state there is a heat problem of course.

Edited by Randalf Yorgen, 09 September 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Byzan]

Randalf Yorgen, on 09 September 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

Then today is the day, and it is rather sunny outside.

http://www.sarna.net...i/Hunchback_IIC

Already in production, Battle tested and soon to be widely deployed through out the Inner Sphere. Notice the STOCK 2 X A/C 20. Because it's stock it should have no ghost heat, right PGI, STOCK Mechs (like the Awesome 8Q) would have been designed to allow for full heat venting so Stock builds should not suffer Ghost Heat.... Right PGI?

Edit, unless the TRO's state there is a heat problem of course.

no not AC/20 but ULTRA AC/20
and ER Meduim lasers

when are they going to be in the game? Always thought it would be cool to have ER med lasers. U AC/20 just sounds insane.

[Hanz Blitzer]

Lord Ikka, on 08 September 2013 - 05:06 AM, said:

Both...either...I don't know. But I do know that Hunchbacks are still very viable and competitive in the game- some of the best matches I've had have been in a 4SP/4G.

My best games came in my founder hunchback. My best record with that mech is 6 kills in one game. I add double heatsinks, and I upped the ammo. I love to hit and fade with that ac20.

[Bishop Steiner]

Byzan, on 09 September 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

no not AC/20 but ULTRA AC/20
and ER Meduim lasers

when are they going to be in the game? Always thought it would be cool to have ER med lasers. U AC/20 just sounds insane.

eventually, maybe, though its a Clan Mech, so don't read too much into it. Bryan has already said they are having to rethink the entire clan weapons dynamic to figure out how to not instantly obsolete the IS mechs.

[Anjian]

Not sure how the Hunchback is obsolete. It certainly has been rejuvenated by the latest patch. Fixing the SRMs wil help it further, at least two of the variants.