16 replies to this topic

[Kanatta Jing]

Quote

Answer from Paul: The 12 man queue resulted in a decrease in fail rate. I don’t have the exact numbers for you but it’s safe to say approximately 5-10%. It’s not due to some magic we’re pulling on our end, it’s just that people are more willing to try 12 vs 12 with bigger teams. This decrease should not indicate to you that we are happy where it’s at. We need to add proper limitations to 12 player launches in order to make the 12 vs. 12 queue a lot more balanced as to what teams bring to the battlefield.

As for launching in any sized teams, this requires the feature indicated in the above paragraph. Our end goal for Match Making is to introduce a tonnage limit for teams trying to drop. For example (please note these numbers are for DEMONSTRATIVE purposes only):

Group Size	Minimum Tonnage	Maximum Tonnage
2	40	125
3	160	180
4	210	245
5	265	305
6	315	365
7	370	425
8	420	485
9	475	545
10	525	605
11	580	665
12	630	730

While you’re group is preparing to launch, depending on the number of players, the team will have to figure out which Mechs they can bring and their total tonnage must fall between the minimum and maximum tonnage level. An example of this is if a team has 6 players and tries to launch with 6 Atlases, the group interface will not allow this because their total tonnage is 600 and the min/max allowable is 315-365. If the group however brings a Raven(35t), a Spider (30t), a Blackjack(45t), a Centurion (50t), a Jagermech (65), and an Atlas (100t), their team total tonnage would be 325 which falls in the min/max allowable. The team can now successfully launch. If a team tries to bring all lights, their tonnage would be under the minimum allowable and the team would not be able to launch. As you can see, this system requires teams to be very aware of their tonnage and make very conscious decisions as to which Mechs to bring.

Now that teams are launching within tonnage limits, the Match Maker can match players based on Elo for skill matching and just grab from the pools of teams/players that are in the Elo bracket and as long as there’s enough room in the match, the players will be added. You will notice that if all players took the maximum weight per group size.. a team of 10+2 = 730 tons. This is the same as a full 12-man.

This feature alone will greatly diversify what Mechs will be showing up on the battlefield as personal preference in the weight classes will also be part of the group building process.

That being said, this is not a simple feature to pop in. It requires backend verification that Mechs are viable and that they meet the launch requirements. It also requires UI support for building the teams and verifying the launch requirements. It also requires a revamp of the Match Maker to take into account the various sizes of teams and their weight limits. There is no timeline for this at the moment but there are engineers working through each of the requirements listed here.

Now, lets remember the given numbers are not final numbers. But this set of numbers promises that there will be other numbers that look a lot like these numbers.

With the 2 person drop on this scale it adds up to Catapult + Quickdraw, Orion + Hunchback, Victor + Blackjack, Highlander + Raven and Atlas + Commando.

This also pairs the popular Cataphract with the 55 ton mech bracket (Soon to be known as the Sabre bracket).

Now the 2 person group can be increased in weight, or reduced in weight, so long as either the 10 person group is adjusted in the opposite direction or the 12 person group is adjusted in an identical direction.

Now also note that the 730 ton 12 person group works out to 12 Quickdraws or 4 Atlases, 4 Hunchbacks, 2 Ravens, 2 Spiders. This is actually heavier then the average Lore Steiner Lance.

So lets argue about how these numbers should look and how they don't fit our preferred play styles.

[Kanatta Jing]

Fine I'll start.

Since the current numbers is (players*60)+5 tons. Except for 12 because it has the +5 from both groups making a +10. And 3. 3 is wrong.

How about dropping the 12 man weight to 670, or 12 * 55 ton mechs + 10 free tons. Dropping the 2 man drop to 115 (2*55+5) because a rogue Atlas attached to a 10 man drop isn't helping anyone. That would leave 555 (10*55+5) tons for the 10 man.

This forces people to favour the soon to be plentiful 55 ton mech bracket and tighter restrictions makes it less desirable for people to drop with a full 320 - 400 ton Assault lance.

This would kinda suck till November or December and the C-bill release of the Shadowhawk.

[Deadmeat313]

I know plenty of people are whining about the upcoming weight limits now, but these really should have been in the game from the very beginning. If this had been introduced early in beta, nobody would have batted an eyelid.

Now we have dedicated Atlas pilots crying because they want to play with all their Atlas pilot mates.

As for the stated limits, I would be fine if they were implemented with exactly the figures Paul gave. My main concern would actually be the minimum limits. Why 2 players can have Locusts (40 ton limit), but 3 players have to find minimum 160 tons is baffling to me.

Maybe it is to limit the number of pesky Light Mechs swarming all over the map?

[WarHippy]

Two new players that don't know each other start playing MW:O they both save their cadet bonus and buy a mech at the end. One buys a Stalker, and one buys an Orion. They meet in game and decide they want to start playing together in the multiplayer game. They add each other to their friends list and create a group, they both select their brand new mechs that they were excited to get and hit launch only to get the message that they are overweight. They both can't play their mech so one will have to play a trial mech, or they both may decide not to bother with grouping up anymore in a multiplayer game so they can play what they want. Sounds great

Now I am fine with this for competitive 12's matches and the like, but small groups and non-tournament play should not be restricted this way if you want people to actually interact with each other.

[Claive]

I don't know why they are limiting weight by group size... it seems counter intuitive for the reasons mentioned by WarHippy.

Why don't they just have a total weight limit for the drop? For 12 vs 12 matches have a drop ship that can only carry between 630 and 730 tons of mech... If they round out the weight limits for the whole drop with the matchmaking tool then my friend and I can both play our 100 ton mechs... we will just be assigned to a team of smaller mechs as a result.

If EVERYONE wants to play assault mechs... then they can expect longer ques

[oldradagast]

My problems with it:

1) It comes along belatedly, after everyone has loaded up on assaults since they are the most viable chassis in the game... Now, many of them would be unable to drop together until they buy more Mechbays - hahaha - gotcha! - to buy lighter mechs.

2) As usual for the game, there will probably be no information in-game that this limit exists, just like "ghost heat," charging Gauss Rifles, and heaven only knows what else... leading to future new players each saving up for their big, scary assault mech, and then discovering that they can't drop with their also new friends. Brilliant.

3) This change encourages the use of medium mechs. Too bad medium mechs are basically horrible right now thanks to high-convergence games and, more importantly, laughably out-of-scale frames and hitboxs. Centurions are as large as Victors, Trenchbuckets are equally bad and far more useless, and the Kintaro is such an oversized piece of junk that they had to make belated changes to the hitboxes just to make it remotely playable. Maybe if PGI wants mediums to be the main chassis class of choice they should stop borking up their scales and hitboxes so badly. I shudder to see how badly the Griffin and other 55-tonners will end up... they'll probably be as large as an Atlas at this rate.

[Hobo Dan]

I like the weight drop limits. I would however be okay with groups of 2-3 not haivng a limit.

[Dan Nashe]

I think the goal should be to limit absurd or painful excesses of one class, but 2 people should be able to play together, and the average weight limit should shrink with larger groups.

Explanation: with two the limit should be 40-200 (avg weight of 20-100)
Then for 3, the added mech weigh range should shrink to 35-90
For a 3 man total of 75-290 (avg weight for unit: 25-95).
So the average of a 4 man is between say 120 and 380 (30-85 tons).
But the aveage weight in a 12 man should be 50-65. (600-780).

Obviously you may face longer queues at the edges.

Edit: I don't mean my specific numbers to be set in stone. They are rough examples I am flexible on.
But would like to see full light lances be viable (min no greater than 140, max no less than 320 for a lance. Company should be more restrictive to prevent 12 victors or 12 jenners).

I should add that I don't think 4 commandos is a serious lance.
So it should be more restrictive average weight with larger drops.

To be honest though, I think 5-12 man premades fighting pubs is a bad idea.

Edited by DanNashe, 09 September 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Kanatta Jing]

DanNashe, on 09 September 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

To be honest though, I think 5-12 man premades fighting pubs is a bad idea.

Rogue 4 mans running around in with the pugs don't hurt too much anymore.

Deadmeat313, on 09 September 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Now we have dedicated Atlas pilots crying because they want to play with all their Atlas pilot mates.

Imagine it. On the forums. Assault pilots, begging for Medium pilots.

[Deadmeat313]

DanNashe, on 09 September 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

I think the goal should be to limit absurd or painful excesses of one class, but 2 people should be able to play together, and the average weight limit should shrink with larger groups.

Explanation: with two the limit should be 40-200 (avg weight of 20-100)
Then for 3, the added mech weigh range should shrink to 35-90
For a 3 man total of 75-290 (avg weight for unit: 25-95).
So the average of a 4 man is between say 120 and 380 (30-85 tons).
But the aveage weight in a 12 man should be 50-65. (600-780).

Obviously you may face longer queues at the edges.

This is an excellent idea! Start the weight caps very open for two player groups, then tighten the overall limits per additional team player. Then leave the matchmaker free to fill the rest of the team with PUG players to fit within an OVERALL weight cap.

The Atlas pilot can indeed play with his Atlas mate.

D313

[Xanquil]

The numbers given as an example in Paul's post seem to be trying to doing 2 things; Making medium mechs the more common choice, and giving the lone Wolf some sort of perk. That is what I get from this in any rate.

[Wolfways]

I can understand limiting the weight of the whole team, but not small groups.

For example, my wife and i play together usually in our heavy mechs, and occasionally in assaults. If we can't play together she will stop playing completely.

It may be a selfish reason but i don't care

[Kanatta Jing]

Wolfways, on 14 September 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

I can understand limiting the weight of the whole team, but not small groups.

For example, my wife and i play together usually in our heavy mechs, and occasionally in assaults. If we can't play together she will stop playing completely.

It may be a selfish reason but i don't care

So, how much weight do you need? You got the 125 already, Now you can just syphon a little weight out of the 10 mans 605.

You can put the 2 man weight at 160 ton To allow you to run Victor Bros. 10 mans can just work around 570 ton.

I am totally seriously asking. How much weight do you need?

[Wolfways]

Kanatta Jing, on 14 September 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

So, how much weight do you need? You got the 125 already, Now you can just syphon a little weight out of the 10 mans 605.

You can put the 2 man weight at 160 ton To allow you to run Victor Bros. 10 mans can just work around 570 ton.

I am totally seriously asking. How much weight do you need?

Well 200ton obviously
We (my wife and i) don't play 100ton mechs (we rarely even play assaults) but i don't see the need to limit small teams at all. The only limit should be on the whole team, not individual groups.
If two players were grouped in 200ton worth of mechs then the MM should match them with players that make up the rest of the tonnage. The very lowest limit for two players should be 150ton so that two players could at least play heavy's together... although i don't agree with that either.

[Kanatta Jing]

Wolfways, on 14 September 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

Well 200ton obviously
We (my wife and i) don't play 100ton mechs (we rarely even play assaults) but i don't see the need to limit small teams at all. The only limit should be on the whole team, not individual groups.
If two players were grouped in 200ton worth of mechs then the MM should match them with players that make up the rest of the tonnage. The very lowest limit for two players should be 150ton so that two players could at least play heavy's together... although i don't agree with that either.

But that makes the matchmaker do more work. The point is to make the players do weight balancing themselves before they get fed into the Matchmaker.

[Wolfways]

Kanatta Jing, on 14 September 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

But that makes the matchmaker do more work. The point is to make the players do weight balancing themselves before they get fed into the Matchmaker.

I don't understand how that makes the MM do more work. It still has to take the weights of current teams in the waiting list and place them together no matter the size of the teams.
Unless i'm not understanding something...which is likely

Edit: Just want to add though that "balancing" the teams by weight is pointless as mechs/weapons aren't balanced, even if PGI think they are. 12 Jagermechs would devastate 12 Atlas in seconds.
It's just another example of PGI trying to fix a problem without addressing the actual problem. i.e. making mediums more popular.

Edited by Wolfways, 14 September 2013 - 05:48 PM.

[Kanatta Jing]

If any 2 man team + any 10 man team is equal in weight to any 3 + 9 man team then all the match maker has to do is fit the pieces together and balance by ELO.

It wouldn't actually balance the weight. Most likely PUGs would still be as random as they like.

And actually balancing the Jaeger with the Blackjack is really hard. How do you even do that?