24 replies to this topic

[ExplodedZombie]

Hello! First time posting anything like this, so be kind. I love solving puzzles so I figured I'd try to make the formula for UAC/5 with my bad math skills. To make the UAC/5 a skill-based weapon we could follow these rules:

1) +1 ton/+1 space makes up for rate-of-fire advantage over AC/5. Leave it alone.
2) Only jam if tapped a second time before full weapon cycle.
3) Maximum jam chance 30% (placeholder value)
4) If the button is simply held down, the UAC/5 behaves just like the AC/5, firing at it's normal cycle, and never jams.

Abbreviations:
Cycle = 1.25s
Difference = 1.25 - Time to Second tap (0.01, 0.04, etc), clamped to maximum of Cycle
Base = Base Chance to Jam (10%) (DPS Macros can't get around this, sorry)
Max = Maximum Chance to Jam (30%)
Jam = Final Jam Chance

So the pseudo formula for jamming if you double tap:

If Difference >= 1.25, break; // We don't want to continue if we're not double tapping.

Jam = Base + (Max * (Cycle - Difference) / Cycle)

What do you think? And yes, I know I'm asking for it.

*Edited because people were focusing on numbers too much. They are just example/placeholder for real balance numbers PGI would put in.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 10 September 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Farix]

I would acutally follow the tabe top a bit more closely.

First, the function of the UAC needs to change. It should not be a rappid fire weapon. It's primary advantage over an AC/5 is it's ability to double tap during a round. However, you also want to give players a reason to use it over the AC/5 as well.

First, I would change the double fire mechanic. It should not be something that is automatically done without the player being involved. If the player holds down the fire button, it should fire, cycle, and refire just like any other auto cannon. If the player wants to double tap, they will need to release the trigger during the cool down and press it again. After the double tap, the cool down does not reset. Instead, the player has to wait until the weapon finishes cycling before firing it again.

The cool down should still be sorter than the standard AC/5. Maybe not as much as 0.4 seconds, but still significant enough to make it worth brining into battle beyond it double tap ability for those who have the weight and the crits to spare. I would also reduce the jam rate down to just 3% for the double tap shot only. 3% is the approximate likelihood of someone rolling snake eyes in the table top. It will still be a powerful First Order Optimized (FOO) weapon, but this also adds a greater element of skill to its use.

And for those who don't know what a FOO strategy is and why it is beneficial to a PvP game, they should watch this episode from the Extra Credits gang.

[ExplodedZombie]

I apologize for not clarifying. In fact, we see things exactly the same.

I will edit the above.

Double tap means a conscious effort to double fire the UAC/5. Holding down the button would just cycle the weapon like an AC/5.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 09 September 2013 - 08:06 PM.

[shintakie]

You say skill based, I say macro based cause that's exactly how people will get around that.

[Karl Streiger]

shintakie, on 09 September 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

You say skill based, I say macro based cause that's exactly how people will get around that.

Hm - well they have to change their macros: because now macros ensure that the second shot is never fired.
This solution will turn it that the second shot has to be fired by choice - not as a kind of accident - and knowlege of risk.

The behavior like a standard AC - well at least the UAC in TT doesn't behave like a standard AC eighter.
You can deal an average of 16% more damage when using an UAC instead of a standard AC - even in single shot (becaue as you know range in TT is not range only - well you can simulate this by faster velocity (smoothbore) and more range - but at least i don't think that it will be worth the 16%.

However your idea - of the second tap - i like it. However the standard cycle rate with 1.25 is still to much. Has to be 1.4 or near that value - to get the full 30 shots per ton.

Alternative : you just reduce the cycle time towards 1second the damage is 4 and the weapon never jam - ammo per ton is 35

[ExplodedZombie]

shintakie, on 09 September 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

You say skill based, I say macro based cause that's exactly how people will get around that.

True, but all things can be macro'd, even the recent Gauss. At least there would always be a base chance to jam if they double tap at all. And perhaps the base chance would be the higher value. That would really help.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 09 September 2013 - 10:41 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Just make it a short (0.25 to 0.5 second window) in which you can "double tap", not the full cycle time. The full cycle time means people might want a macro to avoid accidentally shooting too early.

Maybe that's not skill based for you, but when it comes to precise timing on a well-defined time interval (e.g. the recycle time of a weapon) with no external dependencies, then macros will circumvent this.

[627]

i don't get how a macro would help. If you hold the trigger, the UAC5 shoots like an AC5. Shoot, full reload, shoot. No possible jam.

If you double tap during reload time, you enter ultra mode and fire again (one shot) with the chance to jam.

So what to macro? holding the trigger? shooting exactly at half the reload time for a steady stream? That would still possibly jam the gun.
Or macro the whole "ultra mode" because too lazy to double tap?

[MustrumRidcully]

The macro is to avoid that you accidentally trigger the double shot mode. No one wants to jam accidentally.

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 September 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

The macro is to avoid that you accidentally trigger the double shot mode. No one wants to jam accidentally.

Ehm - exactly that is how it works actually - and even with the OPs model it can work that way (tap once and again after the full cycle) - BUT if you want keep the button pressed you can not jam.

The only thing that give me creeps....when i wait for 1 sec and tap the second shot the risk of jamming is highly reduced.... that means I'm able to keep a extremly high RoF at low risk.

[Khobai]

Bunch of ridiculously overcomplicated solutions here...

You wanna fix UAC/5s? Just increase the cooldown from 1.1 to 1.5

Now it single shots as fast as an AC/5, so macroing it becomes pointless. And when it doubleshots it only slightly more dps than an AC/10, which is exactly where it should be, since the AC/10 does more punch damage and crits items better.

Current DPS=
Single Shot: 4.55 dps
Double Shot: ~5.1 dps

DPS with 1.5 cooldown=
Singleshot: 3.33 dps (same as AC/5)
Doubleshot: ~4.2 dps (AC/10 does 4.0 dps)

I mean its such a simple fix and yet people are going off the deep end with convoluted solutions that are as bad as PGI's. Whats next? Ghost jamming? The more UAC/5s you fire at once, the more they jam...

Edited by Khobai, 10 September 2013 - 01:11 AM.

[Carrioncrows]

For all intensive purpose's the UAC5 as it's implemented right now, is more along the lines of the RAC5 for zero the heat.

Personally, I say - Double click fires 2 shells down range but they still have to wait that 1.5 secs of cycle time and have a chance to jam and continuous to increase the chance to jam the more times you use it back to back with out allowing suffient time for the weapon to "cool' down.

The reason for the double click is obvious, forcing the player to both invest more energy and potentially moving their mouse of target when they get too excited and it physically moves the mouse.

Yes you can macro it, but you still suffer the Jam chance as well.

[Karl Streiger]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Current DPS=
Single Shot: 4.55 dps
Double Shot: ~5.1 dps

DPS with 1.5 cooldown=
Singleshot: 3.33 dps (same as AC/5)
Doubleshot: ~4.2 dps (AC/10 does 4.0 dps)

You can decrease the cooldown towards 1.4
Single Shot: 3.5
Double Shot: ~4.3 (or with 6sec unjamming timer 4.07)

Only a slightly increase for single shot - while using less ammo - trading more damage for less amunition was always the trade mark of a Ultra Cannon.

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

Macroing would indeed help exploit this system greatly. I would write a macro that, when the trigger is held, fires the second shot 1.24 seconds after the first. This way you can fire two shots on consecutive frames of the simulation, which would be very close to a 10-point pinpoint alpha, while only having a 5% chance of jamming, causing my expected dps value to increase greatly.

This system is bad and makes no sense. The later you fire, the smaller your chance of jamming is, but in continued fire your dps will always double if you don't reset the cooldown. And you could still pull off double shots like you can now, only the first shot would be a single.

Edited by Piipu, 10 September 2013 - 02:31 AM.

[Leafia Barrett]

How about this? I don't claim that this is the answer. Hell, I don't even claim to know how using a UAC actually feels- I've never piloted a mech capable of using one. This is just my 2 cents based on my admittedly limited knowledge of game balance in general, and my tendency to be biased against any luck-based stuffs.
-Remove random jamming as a whole, first off. Double tapping will guarantee a jam.
-Reduce jam time drastically. No more than 3 seconds, preferably around 2 full cooldowns' worth of shots (so 2.2 seconds, I guess). In fact, it might be simpler to just have the cooldown jump to 2.2 seconds starting at the second shot.
You still get the burst of double-tapping, but at the cost of having to wait for longer than just firing the 2 shots at normal speed.

[MustrumRidcully]

Khobai, on 10 September 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Bunch of ridiculously overcomplicated solutions here...

You wanna fix UAC/5s? Just increase the cooldown from 1.1 to 1.5

Now it single shots as fast as an AC/5, so macroing it becomes pointless. And when it doubleshots it only slightly more dps than an AC/10, which is exactly where it should be, since the AC/10 does more punch damage and crits items better.

Current DPS=
Single Shot: 4.55 dps
Double Shot: ~5.1 dps

DPS with 1.5 cooldown=
Singleshot: 3.33 dps (same as AC/5)
Doubleshot: ~4.2 dps (AC/10 does 4.0 dps)

I mean its such a simple fix and yet people are going off the deep end with convoluted solutions that are as bad as PGI's. Whats next? Ghost jamming? The more UAC/5s you fire at once, the more they jam...

How about "Ghost Ammo consumption"? If you go over the "max Dakka" value of UACs, you consume an additional percentage of ammo.
UACs will have a Dakka Penalty Multiplier of 1.3.
If you go over Max_Dakka, sort the PGI developers alphabetically and count up to the #[Dakka-Penalty Affected ACs], then calculate the Bacon number of that developers favorite actor, and multiply that with the dakka penalty multiplier. This is the amount of ammo your mech will consume per shot.
Balance can be so easy.

[Shlkt]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 September 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

How about "Ghost Ammo consumption"? If you go over the "max Dakka" value of UACs, you consume an additional percentage of ammo....

LOL!

[ExplodedZombie]

MustrumRidcully, on 10 September 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

The macro is to avoid that you accidentally trigger the double shot mode. No one wants to jam accidentally.

The entire point of my formula is that you can hold the button and *never* jam because it just cycles fully. If you double tap, you *always* have a base chance of jamming. A macro to avoid jamming would not be necessary.

The numbers I posted were dummy numbers. If you increase the base chance of jamming but keep max pretty low, you get even less benefit from macro that increases dps.

Edited by ExplodedZombie, 10 September 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I was hoping this was a post about implementing CAPTCHA into shooting a UAC5.

[Raso]

With the jam rate so low and with the increase base rate of fire even with less ammo per ton and a heavier weapon the UAC5 simply out classes the AC5. I think the AC5 needs to be brought up to snuff with the UAC5. They should both function identically with the exception that the UAC5 can fire a second shot during the cool down timer at the risk of jamming.

I also think the risk of jamming should increase with each subsequent double tap with there being a very low risk of a jam on the first double tap and the likelihood increasing until several double taps later it's a guaranteed jam. Maybe have a bar display the weapon's stability and as it fills further up you can see the likelihood it has to jam. This could represent the barrel warping due to heat (or some other fluff to justify it). Don't have the bar instantly empty, either, but also don't have it drain at a painfully tedious rate.