147 replies to this topic

[xXButcherBlackXx]

I think it's about time Missiles become vulnerable to at least some weapons other than the AMS. It would add more realism to the game and some much needed balance; given that the side with the most LRMs win the match 90% of the time as things stand. Now before you LRM boats complain...shooting down a stream of 50+ missiles with your normal weapons will make you more likely to overheat, may make you waste ammo, and might not even be possible given the trajectory of any incoming missiles; so in those respects this mechanic is not cheap and will not make missiles obsolete.

Please share your thoughts, likes/dislikes, and don't forget to vote

[Khobai]

Have you ever tried to shoot down a missile with a handgun?

[DONTOR]

I would think that AMS or Machineguns only, would be able to take out missles.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

Khobai, on 09 September 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Have you ever tried to shoot down a missile with a handgun?

I don't see what that has to do with the topic. Missiles in this game don't move that fast and travel in clusters. I shoot at them all the time with my lasers, but of course they don't blow up. I'd be more difficult with ballistics obviously.

DONTOR, on 09 September 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I would think that AMS or Machineguns only, would be able to take out missles.

AMS is too..well...automated. I'd like to feel the satisfaction of shooting down missiles myself.

[MnDragon]

And so begins the quest to add the LosTech Mech Patriot Missile Launching system so that we can begin shooting down missiles with missiles and have those missile shot down by other missiles and AMS. file:///C:/Users/Dragon/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif [/sarcasm]

But seriously, missiles are perfectly fine where they are at. They have more counters than buffs, I shall enumerate them:

• ECM prevents LRMers from obtaining missile lock, thus if said LRMer is froggy and can actually see the target, he can “dumb fire” for maybe a few hits.
  
• LRMs require LOS to lock. Not necessarily the firer’s line of sight, but SOMEONE needs to have a visual, target said mech, and then stand there long enough to relay the data to the LRMer. All of which doesn’t work if the scout is under enemy ECM or if the target moves out of LOS.
  
• LRMs beat Paper, Paper beats Rock, Rock beats LRMs. When in doubt, find cover. LRMs don’t fire like a javelin, they have a relatively low angle of attack. Any large rock, building, atlas makes a good missile shield.
  
• AMS can already shoot down roughly 25% of a missile volley. (around 5 missiles per volley PER AMS SYSTEM WITHIN 200m) So if you and say the rest of your lance all have AMS, you just negated an LRM20. Incidentally, there is ONLY ONE mech in the entire inventory that can’t equip AMS---the X5 which brings me to my last point:
  
• Lights can outrun Missiles

For the second time today I will say this: I agree with PGI, AMS: Working as Intended.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

MnDragon, on 09 September 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

And so begins the quest to add the LosTech Mech Patriot Missile Launching system so that we can begin shooting down missiles with missiles and have those missile shot down by other missiles and AMS. file:///C:/Users/Dragon/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif [/sarcasm]

But seriously, missiles are perfectly fine where they are at. They have more counters than buffs, I shall enumerate them:

• ECM prevents LRMers from obtaining missile lock, thus if said LRMer is froggy and can actually see the target, he can “dumb fire” for maybe a few hits.
  
• LRMs require LOS to lock. Not necessarily the firer’s line of sight, but SOMEONE needs to have a visual, target said mech, and then stand there long enough to relay the data to the LRMer. All of which doesn’t work if the scout is under enemy ECM or if the target moves out of LOS.
  
• LRMs beat Paper, Paper beats Rock, Rock beats LRMs. When in doubt, find cover. LRMs don’t fire like a javelin, they have a relatively low angle of attack. Any large rock, building, atlas makes a good missile shield.
  
• AMS can already shoot down roughly 25% of a missile volley. (around 5 missiles per volley PER AMS SYSTEM WITHIN 200m) So if you and say the rest of your lance all have AMS, you just negated an LRM20. Incidentally, there is ONLY ONE mech in the entire inventory that can’t equip AMS---the X5 which brings me to my last point:
  
• Lights can outrun Missiles

For the second time today I will say this: I agree with PGI, AMS: Working as Intended.

All good points, but it still makes no sense that a puny AMS can do something that these high-powered energy and ballistic weapons can't.

[MnDragon]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 09 September 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

All good points, but it still makes no sense that a puny AMS can do something that these high-powered energy and ballistic weapons can't.

The AMS system is loosely based on the Phalanx CIWS (Close-in Weapon System) which first saw use on Navy vessels in the late 70s. This system fires 20mm rounds at about 4,500 rounds per minute using a 5 barrel, pneumatic driven delivery system. It uses Radar and FLIR (Forward Looking Infra-Red) to detect missiles at 9,000m and will prioritize the first 6 targets to engage at about 3,600m. TL;DR: can you fire any weapon at 4,500 rounds per minute?? The average flight time of an LRM is about 2-4 seconds depending on how far away it is. It would require you as a human, to find said cluster of targets, aim at one pinpoint in that target fire you weapon, allow for recycle, pick new target, fire again...repeat until impact all within 2-4 secs. You MIGHT if you are super skilled shoot two missiles IF you were able to see the missiles as soon as they left the tubes and if you had a weapon that could reach out to say 900m and had a recycle time of about 1 sec. The best candidates for this feat would be the AC2, AC5 and UAC5 all balistics, all subject to aim drop so you would have to also be able to quickly calculate that. That is why IMHO, we should NOT be able to shoot down missiles with our weapons and that is why the AMS system is automated.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

MnDragon, on 09 September 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

The AMS system is loosely based on the Phalanx CIWS (Close-in Weapon System) which first saw use on Navy vessels in the late 70s. This system fires 20mm rounds at about 4,500 rounds per minute using a 5 barrel, pneumatic driven delivery system. It uses Radar and FLIR (Forward Looking Infra-Red) to detect missiles at 9,000m and will prioritize the first 6 targets to engage at about 3,600m. TL;DR: can you fire any weapon at 4,500 rounds per minute?? The average flight time of an LRM is about 2-4 seconds depending on how far away it is. It would require you as a human, to find said cluster of targets, aim at one pinpoint in that target fire you weapon, allow for recycle, pick new target, fire again...repeat until impact all within 2-4 secs. You MIGHT if you are super skilled shoot two missiles IF you were able to see the missiles as soon as they left the tubes and if you had a weapon that could reach out to say 900m and had a recycle time of about 1 sec. The best candidates for this feat would be the AC2, AC5 and UAC5 all balistics, all subject to aim drop so you would have to also be able to quickly calculate that. That is why IMHO, we should NOT be able to shoot down missiles with our weapons and that is why the AMS system is automated.

I don't have to be able to fire a weapon at 4,500 rounds per minute when we're talking about a universe that has laser technology. I don't even have to do any complex calculations because said laser can be swept, causing damage to a much larger area and making it easy to correct. I've been in countless situations where I'm in a position to shoot down missiles right in front of me and in range of my LLs/ERPPC. If the missiles were made out of some ultra-high density metal or some type of special shielding I would just accept it and move on, but they aren't; so they should be able to be shot down by lasers at the very least.

[Strum Wealh]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 09 September 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I don't have to be able to fire a weapon at 4,500 rounds per minute when we're talking about a universe that has laser technology. I don't even have to do any complex calculations because said laser can be swept, causing damage to a much larger area and making it easy to correct. I've been in countless situations where I'm in a position to shoot down missiles right in front of me and in range of my LLs/ERPPC. If the missiles were made out of some ultra-high density metal or some type of special shielding I would just accept it and move on, but they aren't; so they should be able to be shot down by lasers at the very least.

It's not so much about ROF as precision - to borrow Khobai's analogy, it would be like trying to keep a high-wattage laser pointer trained on a model rocket fired at you from 1000 feet.
Yes, a number of such high-wattage laser pointers have enough power to burn through the cardboard and thin plastic, but no human could keep the beam trained on a single point on said rocket for long enough for it to matter.

Remember, TT LRMs, at 120 missiles per ton, come out to 8.3 kg per missile - they are the same mass (and, ostensibly, the same size) as the FIM-43 Redeye shoulder-launched missile.
TT SRMs aren't much bigger - at 100 missiles per ton, they come out to 10.0 kg per missile... or marginally lighter than (and about the same size as) the FIM-92 Stinger shoulder-launched missile.
MWO sets the LRMs smaller (180 missiles per ton, or 5.6 kg per missile) and has them travel at 120 m/s (~Mach 0.35), while the MWO LRMs are about the same size as their TT counterparts and travel at 300 m/s (~Mach 0.88).

The reason why CIWS systems (like the Phalanx, and the BT/MW AMS) are automated is because no human (or BattleMech) has the accuracy needed to keep a "normal" weapon trained on a single missile long enough to destroy it (much less the ability to do so , move to another missile, and do it again) - no one is a good enough shot to score a kill against even a single missile outside of dumb luck, much less a spread-out swarm of them.

[Mitheledh]

It should be noted, too, that the Phalanx, nor likely the AWS, does not work by precisely shooting down each missile. But rather, they work by throwing up a wall of lead in front of the missiles in sufficient volume that one of them is bound to hit.

[Scav3ng3r]

Regardless of what anyone says, I still think it would be awesome to be able to shoot down missiles with lazers and get those epic macross-like mid-air explosions!

[Pyrrho]

An AC/20 fired backwards along the trajectory of incoming missiles should be like bowling for missiles.

[Mitheledh]

Scav3ng3r, on 09 September 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Regardless of what anyone says, I still think it would be awesome to be able to shoot down missiles with lazers and get those epic macross-like mid-air explosions!

Honestly? It sounds more Gundam than Macross.

[Wolfways]

LRM's are practically obsolete now and you want to nerf them even more?

If you want to shoot missiles with lasers wait for the clan AMS.

[xXButcherBlackXx]

Scav3ng3r, on 09 September 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

Regardless of what anyone says, I still think it would be awesome to be able to shoot down missiles with lazers and get those epic macross-like mid-air explosions!

That's what I'm talking 'bout.

Wolfways, on 09 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

LRM's are practically obsolete now and you want to nerf them even more?

If you want to shoot missiles with lasers wait for the clan AMS.

Since when...I see 3-4 LRM boats per match kicking the {Scrap} out of people; and now with UAV they can get targets easier.

[Wolfways]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 09 September 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Since when...I see 3-4 LRM boats per match kicking the {Scrap} out of people; and now with UAV they can get targets easier.

I see many LRM boats too but they don't do much damage, except to new players or players who haven't learned to stay in cover.
I haven't used UAV but doesn't it have a limited range, so the mech using it has to get close to the enemy to use it, and it's a 1-use consumable?
And besides, nobody should have to equip loads of extra {Scrap} just to get one weapon to work.

Edited by Wolfways, 09 September 2013 - 08:03 PM.

[Fabe]

This isn't Gundam so I say 'no" to shooting down missiles in this manner . I like Gundam but Battletech has its own way of doing things and one of those things is using a detected and automated anti-missile system.

[Scav3ng3r]

Fabe, on 09 September 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

This isn't Gundam so I say 'no" to shooting down missiles in this manner . I like Gundam but Battletech has its own way of doing things and one of those things is using a detected and automated anti-missile system.

I guess you're right, so we'll just have to wait for LAMS. ::sadface::

Edited by Scav3ng3r, 09 September 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[Soda Popinsky]

Conceptually, I don't see a problem with shooting down missiles with a low efficiency. But think of the programming / net issues. That's 20 or so flying hit boxes that needs to be calculated. I don't know how AMS currently handles the hit boxes, so it may be doable.

[Toong]

xXButcherBlackXx, on 09 September 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

...given that the side with the most LRMs win the match 90% of the time as things stand.

This isn't my experience at all. In a significant amount of the games I play, LRM's don't play a very important role at all. LRM's are a good asset, capable of softening up targets before the main engagement, and with the right coordination can be very scary indeed, but I've seen very few matches where LRM's clearly won the match for the winning team.

Anyway, on to your suggestion as a whole. I understand that LRM's can be frustrating, but I dislike this suggestion. I think the AMS counter to LRM fire is a very straightforward and elegant one. An AMS works very predictably, just like all the other countermeasures in the game. This predictability is key for both the attacker and the defender in understanding the situation. Letting people shoot down missiles with lucky shots would introduce too much inconsistency into the damage profile.