51 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 September 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

Chain-firing is almost completely nullified by even a singe AMS, so if there's any problem with chain-firing it's between the chair and the keyboard.

That totally depends on what is being chain fired. AMS works against LRM5 chain fired, but not so hot against LRM10 chain fired.

[William Chase Davion]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 September 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

I play on a 2-year old laptop that's not even built for gaming, and I have no problem with this. If the effects are too much for you, maybe turn your effects down? Or, I dunno, maybe get an AMS. Chain-firing is almost completely nullified by even a singe AMS, so if there's any problem with chain-firing it's between the chair and the keyboard.

Lynx7725, on 10 September 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

That totally depends on what is being chain fired. AMS works against LRM5 chain fired, but not so hot against LRM10 chain fired.

I have AMS on almost every mech I own. I get more screen shake from LRMs than chained ACs or SRMs. At least when hit by ACs and SRMs I can move to cover.

[Teufel Hunden 0351]

For all you LRM lovers out there think of this...people keep complaining about every other weapon out there being overpowered or unfair especially when boated hence all the phantom heat BS to prevent it. However the only way LRM's have been nerfed is that now you have to chain fire them which does result in what other people are saying in reguards to the shaking, blinding and sometimes FPS drop no matter what your system specs are or what your settings are at. AMS does pretty much nothing to protect you and most cover does not stop all the missiles. Also I would like to point out what I believe most people are complaing about is those of you out there running 4 LRM 15's on chain fire not the people out there with only 2. To prove my points also you need to look no further than at the numbers of people now boating lrms or at least equiping them. I see commandos and light mechs with LRM's. Really???? you don't think LRM's are overpowered than answer this, why is it everyone rushes to gear their mechs with what ever is the most overpowered weapon after any patch and why is it that for the past few months there has been a very steady increase in the number of LRM boats out there.

At least boating PPC's or other long range pinpoint weapons requires skill to use and hit targets where LRM's require none. Also LRM's have longer range than most weapons and are by far the most powerful weapon at long range. It is also unfair to say that people can just use cover to move up because as most people know most of the maps out there now are fairly wide open with lots of open space to cross and with the way people are boating LRM's unless your in a light you can not move fast enough to cover and all the long range weapon combos people were using to take out LRM boats or to supress LRM boats for their team to move to cover have been nerfed to the point of being useless.

If what I'm saying isn't fullly true then also answer one last question for me, why are all the LRM boaters out there hell bent on making sure they don't change anything with how LRM's work and are happy with all the nerfing to PPC's, Gauss, dual AC 20's, Ultra AC5's and so on.

[OneEyed Jack]

Lynx7725, on 10 September 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

That totally depends on what is being chain fired. AMS works against LRM5 chain fired, but not so hot against LRM10 chain fired.

Nothing can keep up a chain of anything larger than 5-packs steady enough to cause issues. Slower fire rates and less launchers puts a significant gap either between each hit or (larger) at the end of each chain. Either way, it's far less effective than group-firing due to stretching out the time before all the missile hit, giving more time for the target to get cover or the shooter to lose lock. And even if a mech could keep up a chain of larger launchers, it greatly magnifies the effectiveness of AMS by giving it more time to engage the same number of missiles.

[Teufel Hunden 0351]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 September 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Nothing can keep up a chain of anything larger than 5-packs steady enough to cause issues. Slower fire rates and less launchers puts a significant gap either between each hit or (larger) at the end of each chain. Either way, it's far less effective than group-firing due to stretching out the time before all the missile hit, giving more time for the target to get cover or the shooter to lose lock. And even if a mech could keep up a chain of larger launchers, it greatly magnifies the effectiveness of AMS by giving it more time to engage the same number of missiles.

Sorry I hate to break it to you but this is not actually accurate. I have had enough matches to know for a fact that you don't have enough time or AMS cover to prevent you from being stripped out in a matter of seconds when you have a couple LRM boats focusing on you.

I would also like to point out I've been able to exhaust two tons of AMS ammo in a very short time during a match from LRM spam. Also I would like to point out even with running 2-AMS in my mech I still get hit and stripped out by LRM's.

[OneEyed Jack]

Teufel Hunden 0351, on 10 September 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

[A bunch of nonsense not worthy of response]

To prove my points also you need to look no further than at the numbers of people now boating lrms or at least equiping them. I see commandos and light mechs with LRM's. Really???? you don't think LRM's are overpowered than answer this, why is it everyone rushes to gear their mechs with what ever is the most overpowered weapon after any patch and why is it that for the past few months there has been a very steady increase in the number of LRM boats out there.

Seriously? You're pointing at people mounting LRMs on Lights as proof? That proves nothing but that people know absolutely nothing (possibly even less than you) about the game mechanics. I haven't seen a huge increase in LRMs, but what increase there has been has been primarily because everything else is getting nerfed. Personally, on my Stalker LRM boat, I actually dropped half the launchers off and replaced them with Lasers and my effectiveness went up, considerably. And I'm well-versed in the use of LRMs, knowing how to fire them, who to fire at and how to position myself for maximum effect.

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At least boating PPC's or other long range pinpoint weapons requires skill to use and hit targets where LRM's require none.

Shooting PPCs and such takes no more skill than shooting LRMs. Being effective with either one is where the skill is, and for most people running missile boats, they're effectiveness is dependent primarily on the red team being bad enough to stand in the open and take the hits. If the red team is bad, then no weapon takes any skill, missile or otherwise. If the red team is good, getting missiles to actually hit anything for effect takes some know-how.

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Also LRM's have longer range than most weapons and are by far the most powerful weapon at long range.

Patently false. LRMs have a longer base range, but don't go an inch beyond that, whereas every non-missile system goes 2-3 times further than base ranges. Exactly half of the non-missile weapons in the game shoot further, and only one of those has a minimum range.

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It is also unfair to say that people can just use cover to move up because as most people know most of the maps out there now are fairly wide open with lots of open space to cross and with the way people are boating LRM's unless your in a light you can not move fast enough to cover

Quit walking straight at them. If you look to the right and left you can probably find a route with plenty of cover If you can't, you aren't looking very hard or are beyond hope.

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If what I'm saying isn't fullly true then also answer one last question for me, why are all the LRM boaters out there hell bent on making sure they don't change anything with how LRM's work and are happy with all the nerfing to PPC's, Gauss, dual AC 20's, Ultra AC5's and so on.

Um... maybe because there's nothing wrong with them? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The argument that it must be broken or people would want it nerfed is the most pathetic attempt at circular logic I've ever seen.

For the record, I have over 30 mechs, every one with a different load-out. I play every weight class and every style, so yes, I have missile boats. But primarily, I play brawlers with all short-range weapons. I'd say my current "main" is an HGN-733C with AC20, SRMs and ML (although he's not seeing much action since they broke SRMs). And, aside from the couple LuRMageddons, when missiles were undeniably broken due to bad code, I've never had an issue closing with and killing LRM boats.

[OneEyed Jack]

Teufel Hunden 0351, on 10 September 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

Sorry I hate to break it to you but this is not actually accurate. I have had enough matches to know for a fact that you don't have enough time or AMS cover to prevent you from being stripped out in a matter of seconds when you have a couple LRM boats focusing on you.

I would also like to point out I've been able to exhaust two tons of AMS ammo in a very short time during a match from LRM spam. Also I would like to point out even with running 2-AMS in my mech I still get hit and stripped out by LRM's.

And if you were being focused by mechs using direct-fire weapons you wouldn't be? Please.

Multiple vs one, you will usually lose if you stand there and take it. This is right and proper and has nothing to do with LRMs. The difference is, other weapons don't have direct counters (even if they are only partial) other than armor or give you a warning that they're coming in time to find cover. If you don't have time to get to cover, you are someplace you shouldn't have been. If you don't have the sense to come in out of the rain, it's not a problem with the weapons.

[w0rm]

LRM's suck horrible.

[Teufel Hunden 0351]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 September 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

And if you were being focused by mechs using direct-fire weapons you wouldn't be? Please.

Multiple vs one, you will usually lose if you stand there and take it. This is right and proper and has nothing to do with LRMs. The difference is, other weapons don't have direct counters (even if they are only partial) other than armor or give you a warning that they're coming in time to find cover. If you don't have time to get to cover, you are someplace you shouldn't have been. If you don't have the sense to come in out of the rain, it's not a problem with the weapons.

Well that's not correct because when your in a slow assault mech it takes a sec to turn and move and sometimes you get hung up on other mechs or hills etc. Also based on your statement which I do agree with btw then LRM boats shouldn't have any problems with the 6PPC Guass combo's either which would rip them apart in about the same amount of time from the same standoff distance. My point is the logic LRM boat pilots are using is very one way and they defend their gameplay but cry about the counters and they nerf the counters.

Now if both teams are balanced with any setup including LRM boaters then you at least have an equal standing, however that is not normally how it turns out.

Also though direct fire weapons, mainly AC weapons which bounce you around a little bit do not create a black cloud which makes it very difficult to see and also they don't do as much damage anywhere near as fast as 4-LRM 15's chained x however many mechs firing them.

I would also like to point out that if you have to rely on having dual AMS + ECM + having a fast mech in order to avoid or counter the LRM boating then there is a problem with that. To make this point I would like to say that it is equally stupid to say that you need to have ECM + Max armor + Fast mech in order to counter 6PPC 1Guass combos. The logic is the exact same. The main difference with this is that it takes much more skill to hit a target with all those point damage weapons than it does to hit someone with LRM's. At least the point damage weapon combo is hit or miss and even without the phantom heat an alpha with that combo will pretty much max your heat with one salvo and require a longer pause to reuse than chaining LRMs. Also if you try sniping at 1k with all those weapons you can see how difficult it is to hit and the people on the other side being shot at can see the PPC bolts coming just like the people can see LRM's coming.

Please note all I'm doing is using the same logic from the other side of the spectrum using pinpoint weapons as my basis.

[KAT Ayanami]

Grugore, on 09 September 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

OK. Here's the way I see it. I was on Canyon Network today. There was a cliff that was slightly taller than me. I was kissing it, and still getting hit with LRMs. How about a slight change to their trajectory, so being behind cover actually helps?

And you are a legendary founder??

[Ngamok]

Grugore, on 09 September 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

OK. Here's the way I see it. I was on Canyon Network today. There was a cliff that was slightly taller than me. I was kissing it, and still getting hit with LRMs. How about a slight change to their trajectory, so being behind cover actually helps?

Don't stand there? Whenever I see incoming missiles, I back up and then move left or right to avoid them hitting me as they come in since they will land where they saw you last.

[Ngamok]

OneEyed Jack, on 10 September 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Nothing can keep up a chain of anything larger than 5-packs steady enough to cause issues. Slower fire rates and less launchers puts a significant gap either between each hit or (larger) at the end of each chain. Either way, it's far less effective than group-firing due to stretching out the time before all the missile hit, giving more time for the target to get cover or the shooter to lose lock. And even if a mech could keep up a chain of larger launchers, it greatly magnifies the effectiveness of AMS by giving it more time to engage the same number of missiles.

My 5xLRM10 Stalker 5M can pretty much keep it going and core you pretty fast if you are out in the open.

[Joseph Mallan]

Teufel Hunden 0351, on 10 September 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

Sorry I hate to break it to you but this is not actually accurate. I have had enough matches to know for a fact that you don't have enough time or AMS cover to prevent you from being stripped out in a matter of seconds when you have a couple LRM boats focusing on you.

I would also like to point out I've been able to exhaust two tons of AMS ammo in a very short time during a match from LRM spam. Also I would like to point out even with running 2-AMS in my mech I still get hit and stripped out by LRM's.

Yo Devil Dawg (Dragon) If enough missiles are coming your way, even multiple AMS won't help you! Like Cold... To many LRMs can kill you! That is just how it should work.


BTW: I wanted your MOS when I was a Grunt!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 September 2013 - 06:17 AM.

[Teufel Hunden 0351]

Joseph Mallan, on 10 September 2013 - 05:37 AM, said:

Yo Devil Dawg (Dragon) If enough missiles are coming your way, even multiple AMS won't help you! Like Cold... To many LRMs can kill you! That is just how it should work.


BTW: I wanted our MOS when I was a Grunt!

LOL yup you hit that nail on the head. That was my point that AMS can't help you, even two of them won't stop them if you have enough coming at you, which is usually how it's been working lately with all the LRM spamming.

oorah

[Joseph Mallan]

Teufel Hunden 0351, on 10 September 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

LOL yup you hit that nail on the head. That was my point that AMS can't help you, even two of them won't stop them if you have enough coming at you, which is usually how it's been working lately with all the LRM spamming.

oorah

1 AMS on TT shot down no more than 6 missiles (IS) or 12 (Clan). MWO version is much much better!

[Artgathan]

Teufel Hunden 0351, on 10 September 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

Sorry I hate to break it to you but this is not actually accurate. I have had enough matches to know for a fact that you don't have enough time or AMS cover to prevent you from being stripped out in a matter of seconds when you have a couple LRM boats focusing on you.

I would also like to point out I've been able to exhaust two tons of AMS ammo in a very short time during a match from LRM spam. Also I would like to point out even with running 2-AMS in my mech I still get hit and stripped out by LRM's.

If you get focused on by a few boats of anything you should die quickly. If a player is dying that frequently to LRMs though they should really consider utilizing cover. AMS is meant to mitigate the damage done by missile salvos, not negate it. Imagine if there was a 1.5 ton piece of equipment (such as AMS + 1 Ton Ammo) that could entirely disable a class of weapons. OH WAIT

Teufel Hunden 0351, on 10 September 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

LOL yup you hit that nail on the head. That was my point that AMS can't help you, even two of them won't stop them if you have enough coming at you, which is usually how it's been working lately with all the LRM spamming.

oorah

This is known as the LRM-AMS arms race. Imagine you start with an LRM5. Your opponent brings an AMS, making your LRM5 ineffective (with half the tonnage in equipment!). Next round you grab an LRM10. It works a little better, but your 5 ton weapon system is only doing 3/4 damage (since they still have AMS and it's shooting down your missiles) and it's spread over a few components of the enemy mech. So you grab an LRM15. Your enemy grabs 2 AMS. You grab an LRM20 (an 11 ton weapon [10 Ton Launcher + 1 Ton Ammo] which is doing 3/4 Damage a salvo against a 2-ton [2 X AMS = 1 Ton + 1 Ton Ammo] set of equipment).

To finally achieve superiority, you grab 2 LRM20s. Finally, you can do some damage! It only took (a minimum of) 21 tons to be effective against 1.5 - 2.0 tons of defensive equipment!

Let's not forget, LRMs have a long travel time, spread damage and can be shot down (and jammed entirely). If a pilot is ever so far from cover that they can't make it behind something before enough LRMs hit them to kill them they are a bad pilot.

I think the biggest problem with LRMs is that people feel that they should be able to completely avoid being hit by them. I don't know what causes this belief, but across the board LRMs are the only weapon people consistently complain about being hit by. (I don't mean they complain about LRMs being OP or UP - just the fact that LRMs hit them makes them upset).

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Josheph Mallen, expert troll. LRMs don't exist anymore, and apologists like him will fight for every edge and advantage he can get to make up for his lack of posting skill..... What you lack son, you make up in spam with your 11,000+ posts. How about adding some substance one of these days instead of just spamming and putting down players? No? That's what I thought, boy.

[Taemien]

OP, try this:



You're standing on the 'X'. The trick to avoiding LRMs is moving behind the hill to break the lock, not intercept the missiles (they are indirect fire weapons after all). Once lock is broken, you need to move because they don't simply drop out of the air, they home on the last point they locked on.

If you're still standing there, you'll be bombarded.

[Joseph Mallan]

lockwoodx, on 10 September 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

Josheph Mallen, expert troll. LRMs don't exist anymore, and apologists like him will fight for every edge and advantage he can get to make up for his lack of posting skill..... What you lack son, you make up in spam with your 11,000+ posts. How about adding some substance one of these days instead of just spamming and putting down players? No? That's what I thought, boy.

Oh Please. I started off as an LRMBoat Captain. Those days are long gone. However I have used My Great Archer a few times and though my damage is way down from the glory days. My last time using them I wracked up 3 kills, 5 assists, and did 400+ damage. Gone? I doubt it. Also Almost every time I die... LRMs are in the mix of weapons that killed me.


Unless you are a 92 Year old man... You ain't my Dad

Calling a 48 YO man Boy... LOL really!!!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 10 September 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[Teufel Hunden 0351]

Artgathan, on 10 September 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

If you get focused on by a few boats of anything you should die quickly. If a player is dying that frequently to LRMs though they should really consider utilizing cover. AMS is meant to mitigate the damage done by missile salvos, not negate it. Imagine if there was a 1.5 ton piece of equipment (such as AMS + 1 Ton Ammo) that could entirely disable a class of weapons. OH WAIT



This is known as the LRM-AMS arms race. Imagine you start with an LRM5. Your opponent brings an AMS, making your LRM5 ineffective (with half the tonnage in equipment!). Next round you grab an LRM10. It works a little better, but your 5 ton weapon system is only doing 3/4 damage (since they still have AMS and it's shooting down your missiles) and it's spread over a few components of the enemy mech. So you grab an LRM15. Your enemy grabs 2 AMS. You grab an LRM20 (an 11 ton weapon [10 Ton Launcher + 1 Ton Ammo] which is doing 3/4 Damage a salvo against a 2-ton [2 X AMS = 1 Ton + 1 Ton Ammo] set of equipment).

To finally achieve superiority, you grab 2 LRM20s. Finally, you can do some damage! It only took (a minimum of) 21 tons to be effective against 1.5 - 2.0 tons of defensive equipment!

Let's not forget, LRMs have a long travel time, spread damage and can be shot down (and jammed entirely). If a pilot is ever so far from cover that they can't make it behind something before enough LRMs hit them to kill them they are a bad pilot.

I think the biggest problem with LRMs is that people feel that they should be able to completely avoid being hit by them. I don't know what causes this belief, but across the board LRMs are the only weapon people consistently complain about being hit by. (I don't mean they complain about LRMs being OP or UP - just the fact that LRMs hit them makes them upset).

I guess I'm not doing a good enough job making my point. Let me please try again...I don't care about how they have the LRM's setup so long as they would get rid of phantom heat and stop completely nerfing all the other weapons. My issue is now that everything else is nerfed so badly you are being forced into makeing builds based on things which shouldn't be a factor. This is the reason I keep pointing out the 6PPC 1 Guass combo. Personally I've never used that build however they are adding penalties for more than 2 large lasers fired at once or combo's of this weapon and that. There are also lots of people now crying now that the Ultra AC 5 is too powerful. Hence my point of well if you need to nerf all the other weapons in the game then you need to do more to stop all the LRM spamming cause heaven forbid a LRM boat gets knocked out with that max point damage build.

So my argument is, if every other weapon in the game needs to be nerfed because of players getting their ***** handed to them ie double ac20 or 4large laser or 6ppc or what ever, then lets talk about how people are also getting their ***** handed to them by LRM boats and how this frequency seems to be increasing as a result of nerfing everything else.

I have always said and stand by previous posts I've made that people should be allowed to gear their mechs however they want. At least that way a natural form of balance will inevetably take place and people might actually be able to start playing using tactics versus spam this after this patch spam that after the next patch.

Am I the only one who thinks it's stupid and taking away from the fun of the game when you have to keep constantly changing your builds because of bs penalties ie phantom heat or because of them nerfing your weapons to the point where they seem pointless. And by this statement I'm talking about specific builds with specific mechs with specific hardpoints. For example Awesomes are standard loadout 3-PPC but now you can't alpha at all. Granted with that loadout you don't want to alpha alot because of overheating so you would use chainfire. However if you get overun and end up in a brawl the option to alpha an enemy mech could mean the difference of survival. But now phantom heat will blow you up.