211 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

PPCs are more than playable right now. You're using them wrong.

[Dimento Graven]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Maybe, because we don't have double heat sinks but three times the fire rate?

I'm all for making "double" heat sincs, actually be DOUBLE (they're not now, it's wrong to call them "DOUBLE" when they don't do "DOUBLE" the cooling, and are THREE TIMES the size of SHS), as long as PGI also adds a more robust heat affects table.

As long as this disparity exists:

You'll never really be able to balance the weapons or balance 'cheese' builds.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 September 2013 - 07:45 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

I'm using them approriate to the role my mech has on the field: Direct fire support. But I can't support properly and spit out some DPS or supress enemys with the current heat on PPCs. All I can do now is hit and run. Thats not what a Marauder is meant for. Or a Awesome. Don't know about the rest atm.

I have followed the thread since its creation and I'm sick of all the morons getting off to the new oh so great TT values on PPCs. It makes no sense to set a weapon on TT values if it underperforms that way compared to others (by far) especially under the point that in TT the heat system was different and more efficient. I'd freakin cool 3 PPCs with 19 DHS and my freakin drinks on top of that!....

@Dimento: That won't happen. Do you really want to have more luck based stats in a skill based game? I'm certainly not anyone that realised that MWO is a competetive multiplayer game also shouldn't.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 September 2013 - 07:52 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

deanon, on 10 September 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

The heat cost is to high, never put out enough damage for them to be worth it, Large Lasers are pretty much allways better since they allow you to fire more.

Tried them with my highlander and 15 double heatsinks..

you mean you can't alpha them and you don't take other weapons for under 90meters by unplayable ?

[Joseph Mallan]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

No word about extened range on Sarna. Long range for PPCs: 18*3 = 540. Nuff said, have a nice day. Just because its called long rang it doesn't mean that it automatically is a long range weapon.

And just in case you didn't notice: I wasn't talking about TT in the first place for weapon range. And more just in case: I knew that before. Don't know what you want to say with that... The discussion was about PPC being a long or a mid range weapon.

Sarna does not cover quite everything about TT, Second since MechWarrior is part of the BattleTech Universe it conforms to the Canon ranges of TT. As such anything reaching 15+ hexes (450M) is considered long range for this universe. PPCs reach out to 18 Hexes so it fall into a Long range weapon. An Ultra AC2 only reached 25 Hexes on TT or 750M (unless the advanced Extendeded range rules were used.

[Joseph Mallan]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Maybe, because we don't have double heat sinks but three times the fire rate?

We have the max range of 540 ingame. So thats the only value that matters here. Thats not long range.


As you can clearly see, the game does not resembel TT in an approriate manner so you can't set these numbers as the "best state". Currently PPCs are underperforming under the set circumstances and your "oooh TT stats are sooo great! @_@" cries won't change that a bit. Either way, you have to adapt the rest of the game or the PPC. Now choose.

Actually if the PPC is under perfoming you may need to put in some time on the training grounds. And the Guys at PGI have decided to allow the extended ranges from TT so yes The basic rules do apply to this game.

[JohnnyWayne]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 September 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Actually if the PPC is under perfoming you may need to put in some time on the training grounds. And the Guys at PGI have decided to allow the extended ranges from TT so yes The basic rules do apply to this game.

There are no "exteneded ranges" from TT. There are the MWO extended ranges which only means double the long range for energy weapons.

I never have met you ingame, but I met most of the higher elo players. What tells me that?... Right drop luck... On the other hand I see your posts in ever thread what tells me that you are literally a forum warrior, yet you don't even know how to edit your posts.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 September 2013 - 07:58 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

We have the max range of 540 ingame. So thats the only value that matters here. Thats not long range.

Wrong, we have a maximum range of 1080. In MWO "extended" range for energy weapons is DOUBLE the max long range value. It's liberty PGI took with the TT values that I would not have done had I been making the decisions, but it is what it is, for now.

Quote

As you can clearly see, the game does not resembel TT in an approriate manner so you can't set these numbers as the "best state". Currently PPCs are underperforming under the set circumstances and your "oooh TT stats are sooo great! @_@" cries won't change that a bit. Either way, you have to adapt the rest of the game or the PPC. Now choose.

It's a real time simulation of a TT simulation of a what future war with giant robots might be like. Some things require tweaking as representing "real time" move and fire in TT wasn't possible, and representing "real time" pilot gunnery skill with aiming at specific points of a target's body was also, not possible without taking what would normally be 5 minutes to play a turn into 20 minutes to play a turn and making the TT experience unbearably slow.

Ultimately the fact is PPC heat values are fine as is, and if PGI could ever get around to adding a robust heat affects table in this game we'd see even less of the mindless, "shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot, is it dead yet?, shoot shoot shoot shoot, ok maybe I stop and cool off now, I've been at 99.999999999999% of maximum heat for the past 5 minutes now", BS that we have had to suffer through so far.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 September 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Fut]

ValdnadHartagga, on 10 September 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

I dunno man, honest to Blake I saw a premade AWS last night packing five ERPPCs. It's all about managing the battle, not blasting away at every opportunity.

And not just Alpha-Striking constantly.

[Joseph Mallan]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

There are no "exteneded ranges" from TT. There are the MWO extended ranges which only means double the long range for energy weapons.

I never have met you ingame, but I met most of the higher elo players. What tells me that?... Right drop luck... On the other hand I see your posts in ever thread what tells me that you are literally a forum warrior, yet you don't even know how to edit your posts.

As a 48 year old I don't need to be a literary master to post on a forum. I spend a lot less time playing now cause I had burnt out after about nine months of putting in 32+ hours a week playing on top of a 40+ hour work week. We have in fact dropped a few times together and Vs. They changed the math a bit but the point is the basic premise is still that of the BattleTech Universe. They don't follow the letter as that would not make for a fun real time game.

You see me posting during my work hours and hardly ever outside of the shifts 8 hour window.

[JohnnyWayne]

What you are asking for is obviously heat neutral mechs and a proper penalty table and there I'm with you as long as we really get heat neutrality similar to TT. But I don't want there to be more chance based mechanics added into a competetive multiplayer game.
Even the more damageing crit hits were not good to begin with.

To the extended ranges: Yeah I have no issue with these but the max range for comprehansion between weapons stays the maximum full damaging range. All else is just weapontype fluff. Compared to the other weapons in the game ranges between 270 and 590 are midrange (in MWO!).

Btw it's not really a simulation of anything because they sadly stopped makeing it that way.

Joseph Mallan, on 13 September 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

As a 48 year old I don't need to be a literary master to post on a forum. I spend a lot less time playing now cause I had burnt out after about nine months of putting in 32+ hours a week playing on top of a 40+ hour work week.

You got me wrong.^^ All I wanted to say is: Don't double post, edit your posts. I'm not a native speaker so there should be more than enough mistakes in my posts to prevent anyone kalling me a "literary master".^^
I also can reconsider that you don't play that much, but on the other hand you post atleast once in every thread I see.^^

Listen, I still shoot stuff with PPCs either way and I rock with them. But I also do with most other loadouts (even more... but I love my Marauder!). And since the current nerf, PPCs just feel wrong man....

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 September 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

@Dimento: That won't happen. Do you really want to have more luck based stats in a skill based game? I'm certainly not anyone that realised that MWO is a competetive multiplayer game also shouldn't.

Specifically what won't happen?

You're misinterpreting the fact that I put the original TT heat affects table, something so important to balance it was printed on every 'mech record sheet ever produced for the past 30 years, against the current MWO heat affects table as an indication that I want the ORIGINAL TT heat affects table added EXACTLY point for point in MWO?

No. The picture is to demonstrate that MWO lacks a robust heat affects table. In TT you had that table ever present in your thinking, with affects occurring well before shutting down.

The MWO heat affects table was scaled to the first shutdown roll on the original TT value, because someone at PGI supposedly said that's the scale. Otherwise, I'd be using THIS image:

Which demonstrates an even greater disparity with historic BT.

Ultimately a robust heat affects table needs to be added so that we can:

1. GET RID OF THE PHANTOM/GHOST HEAT BS MECHANIC
2. Add sufficient tactical risk to boaters and cheese builds while still allowing them to exist in a balanced manner.

So we need more than just "TWO" affects on our MWO heat table. One, potential shut down, and the other being random internal damage that may occur after exceeding 100% heat capacity.

Here's a short list of potential heat affects that could occur in MWO, utilizing features that already exist in game:

1. Max speed reduction
2. Reticule shake
3. Loss of target lock
4. Weapon misfire
5. Weapon jam
6. Loss of vision
7. Random arm movement
8. Random torso movement

There's probably more, but the point is, without a meaningful heat affects table, all the other 'balancing' ******** that PGI is doing is for naught.

[JohnnyWayne]

Dimento Graven, on 13 September 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Specifically what won't happen?

Personally, I think PGI will not introduce these tables due to the current heat system that they won't change. Just to mention it, former mechwarrior titles also had no heat tables.

Your examples say it themselfs: Random. Not good.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 September 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[Alpha087]

Really strange how my dual PPC Atlas is still just as deadly as it was before, yet I'm still seeing all these QQ threads complaining about PPCs being unusable.

[FupDup]

The forum user Marthe Pyrde made a handy little heat simulator for weapons fire in this game: http://keikun17.gith...heat_simulator/

Equip two PPCs or ERPPCs with ~20 DHS and see the results. In the simulation I can fire dual PPCs roughly 10 times in a row before having to stop and cool down (assuming I start at 0% heat). Dual ERPPCs can be fired 5 times in a row.

Note that the app doesn't yet factor in environmental conditions, but it does give a pretty good idea of how a build would run out in the real world. It also doesn't seem to count pilot tree bonuses.

Edited by FupDup, 13 September 2013 - 08:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

What you are asking for is obviously heat neutral mechs and a proper penalty table and there I'm with you as long as we really get heat neutrality similar to TT. But I don't want there to be more chance based mechanics added into a competetive multiplayer game.
Even the more damageing crit hits were not good to begin with.

To the extended ranges: Yeah I have no issue with these but the max range for comprehansion between weapons stays the maximum full damaging range. All else is just weapontype fluff. Compared to the other weapons in the game ranges between 270 and 590 are midrange (in MWO!).

Btw it's not really a simulation of anything because they sadly stopped makeing it that way.




You got me wrong.^^ All I wanted to say is: Don't double post, edit your posts. I'm not a native speaker so there should be more than enough mistakes in my posts to prevent anyone kalling me a "literary master".^^
I also can reconsider that you don't play that much, but on the other hand you post atleast once in every thread I see.^^

Listen, I still shoot stuff with PPCs either way and I rock with them. But I also do with most other loadouts (even more... but I love my Marauder!). And since the current nerf, PPCs just feel wrong man....

Well its ok that we disagree. I think PPCs are still doing just fine. Enough so that I Kept the ERPPC on my Atlas while swapping out the Gauss for an AC10 for a few days. I am looking forward to the Orion's C-Bill release cause you can make a sweet Marauder out of at least one of them! Orion-K-JM

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 September 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Personally, I think PGI will not introduce these tables due to the current heat system that they won't change. Just to mention it, former mechwarrior titles also had no heat tables.

Your examples say it themselfs: Random. Not good.

Actually most of them did, that I can recall, it's just that:

#1. We're talking about games that, for the most part, none of us played in any phase of beta
#2. The heat affects were extremely well blended into the game experience, made sense, and most of us learned to play within them.

Where are my examples showing "random"? Other than the "random" arm and torso movement, movements will be random, at what heat level they would begin to occur would NOT be random. PGI could define a set heat percentage for those movements to start/stop occurring.

Unless you just object to anything happening beyond your control at any point in time, ever, for any reason, go buy a 15 pound sledge hammer to enforce the point, never ever, *SLAM*, NEVER EVER!!!

No, that's unreasonable, because to avoid those random movements, you just need not fire so much you get that level of heat... So you still have that control you desire, you're just not allowed to maintain that control all the way up to 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of maximum heat capacity.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 September 2013 - 08:25 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 September 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

Well its ok that we disagree. I think PPCs are still doing just fine. Enough so that I Kept the ERPPC on my Atlas while swapping out the Gauss for an AC10 for a few days. I am looking forward to the Orion's C-Bill release cause you can make a sweet Marauder out of at least one of them! Orion-K-JM

Oh I already have my K - Orion^^. Hey... Your Marauder is missing an ac... Insert an ac2 for a real ac (and endo steel such as 19 DHS).

Btw, that heat sim tool is bugged.^^

Random means: If you loose control of your actions ingame.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 September 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

JohnnyWayne, on 13 September 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

There are no "exteneded ranges" from TT. There are the MWO extended ranges which only means double the long range for energy weapons.

Actually, there are... though, they are more properly named as "extreme range" and "LOS range" and are both described on page 85 of Tactical Operations.

"Extreme Range starts 1 hex beyond long range and extends to a range equal to the weapon’s maximum medium range times 2. For example, extreme range for a medium laser extends from 10 to 12 hexes; the medium laser’s long range is 9 (9 + 1 = 10), and its maximum medium range is 6 (6 x 2 = 12)."

However, the falloff ranges employed by PGI are typically longer than the extreme ranges.
To use the example of the Medium Laser, this would translate into the Medium Laser having a maximum effective range of 270 meters (the TT "long" range) and a maximum range of 360 meters (the TT extreme range) rather than 540 meters (the MWO 0-damage falloff range).

Moreover, "LOS range starts 1 hex beyond extreme range and extends to the limits of the entire playing area, regardless of how large" and includes "a +8 to-hit modifier for any weapon attacks against targets made at LOS range".

[JohnnyWayne]

Strum Wealh, on 13 September 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Actually, there are... though, they are more properly named as "extreme range" and "LOS range" and are both described on page 85 of Tactical Operations.

But not in mwo @_@! Such a long post all in vain My point was that the maximum effectivness ranges are the long ranges from TT. They didn't use extended ranges (and I learned about them just an hour ago...^^).