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Uac/5 Damage Analysis


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#41 VXJaeger

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostRoland, on 12 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Heh, I bought the Illya to exploit tripple UAC5... but I did it months ago, because even earlier in beta the tripple UAC was a meat grinder.

In its current state, it's just crazy, because there's really no reason to ever NOT just hold down the trigger.

I'm starting to see picture here.
"Let's make UACs the best cannon ingame, that'll sell Hero-Murometses. And when enough cash has came in, let's nerf it's best cannons back again."
Just ****.

#42 Amaris the Usurper

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:20 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 12 September 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Honestly it seems you have just proved that it is working correctly. I mean it just seems common sense that the whole point of having a double shot mode as you call it, is to increase DPS.

There is no reason that "working correctly" must equate to higher DPS, because higher DPS is not the only possible advantage of one weapon over another. For example, PPCs and Gauss rifles don't have great DPS per ton, but they have good range and deliver their damage to a single location in a short burst. With proper use of cover, these traits allow more damage to be delivered when actually exposed to return fire.

View PostViktor Drake, on 12 September 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

By the figures above, you state that at the 25% jam rate, the UAC/5 actually did less DPS when used in automatic (double-shot) mode, than it would have in single shot mode. That is definately counterintuitive and makes it pretty obvious why PGI buffed the weapon. Additionally the 15% Jam rate DPS is only a 0.68 DPS increase over the single shot DPS value which isn't all that much.

With the 25% jam rate, less damage was done in the long run, but more damage was done in the short run. Looking at the third figure, you can see that about 20% more would be done over a 3-second burst, but you are no better off if you keep firing for 5 seconds and 10% behind (compared to single shot) if you keep firing for 8 seconds.

Now, with the 15% jam rate, you do 40% more damage over a 3-second burst, and this declines to 15% more damage (compared to single shot) in the long run. In other words, there is not much reason to ever avoid the risk of jamming, especially if you have three guns and can therefore hit these average results reliably.

The 15% chance of jam could be justifiable if the UAC/5 had the same base rate of fire as the AC/5. Then the weapon would be a heavier/bulkier AC/5 with higher short-term burst damage and a mild DPS boost in the long-run. However, its cooldown time is 1.1 seconds, while that of the AC/5 is 1.5 seconds. This change alone is enough to justify the added weight and bulk, without the possibility of increasing the DPS further by double-tapping.

View PostViktor Drake, on 12 September 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Lastly, I would absolutely expect a UAC/5 to have better DPS than a AC/5 because it is heavier and requires more crit slots than an AC/5. I mean what is the point of having the UAC/5 doing exactly the same damage as the AC/5? Oh I forgot, "BALANCE" where every weapon should be exactly the same, doing the same damage at the same heat for the same weight.

Seriously, lets just get rid of all weapons except the medium laser, that way we would have perfect weapon balance. Of Course then the posts would be His Jenner has 4 Energy Slots verses my Kintaro having only 2 Energy Slots...nerf Jenners.

In my experience, about 100 rounds per AC/5 or UAC/5 is adequate (less if you have more than two guns). Therefore, we can say that the AC/5 weighs 11 tons and takes up 7 slots, while the UAC/5 weights 13 tons and takes up 9 slots, so that the UAC/5 is 18% heavier and 29% bulkier in actual practice.

The two weapons fire projectiles with the same speed, damage, and heat per shot, and their ranges are virtually identical. Therefore, the sole advantage is in DPS. The AC/5 deals 5/1.5 = 3.33 DPS. The UAC/5 deals 5/1.1 = 4.55 DPS in single-shot mode and 5.23 DPS (in the long run) in double-shot mode. These are improvements of 37% and 57% for weight and bulk increases on the order of 25%. The 37% figure seems barely justifiable, but the 57% one probably isn't, especially given the large amount of damage that is "front loaded" (see the third figure) before settling down to the 57% trend.

#43 TOGSolid

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 01:36 PM

View PostRoland, on 12 September 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Heh, I bought the Illya to exploit tripple UAC5... but I did it months ago, because even earlier in beta the tripple UAC was a meat grinder.

In its current state, it's just crazy, because there's really no reason to ever NOT just hold down the trigger.

Preeeetty much. The Ultra Ilya (or as the Oosiks like to call it, the Murdermets) has always been a really powerful build that would chainsaw targets in half pretty quickly. The only reason it's finally getting attention is because the pugs have moved on to the next blatantly obvious crutch.

Quote

n my experience, about 100 rounds per AC/5 or UAC/5 is adequate (less if you have more than two guns).

I usually just run three of ammo per AC since that has pretty solidly proven to be the sweet spot for me. The exception to this rule is the AC/20 in which I usually mount 4, preferably 5 tons of ammo for it. The Gauss usually gets 4 tons just for wiggle room but 3 tons can work too as long as you're careful.

Edited by TOGSolid, 12 September 2013 - 01:38 PM.


#44 Deathlike

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:23 PM

View PostVXJaeger, on 12 September 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

I'm starting to see picture here.
"Let's make UACs the best cannon ingame, that'll sell Hero-Murometses. And when enough cash has came in, let's nerf it's best cannons back again."
Just ****.


Just wait for the Ilya sale that's coming soon™.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 September 2013 - 05:23 PM.


#45 Anastasius

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:48 PM

View PostThe Boz, on 11 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

The jam chance should be removed totally, because it will NEVER result in a reliable, non-random, unexploitable mechanic. UACs should have higher rates of fire than their AC counterparts, but at the cost of weapon spread, preventing pinpoint component damage at over 200 meters or so.


This may be the best post I have ever read on these forums.

#46 Vercinaigh

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 05:56 PM

View PostThe Boz, on 11 September 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

The jam chance should be removed totally, because it will NEVER result in a reliable, non-random, unexploitable mechanic. UACs should have higher rates of fire than their AC counterparts, but at the cost of weapon spread, preventing pinpoint component damage at over 200 meters or so.

Random mechanics are trash, skill based mechanics, not BS that says you don't get a kill because well, BANANAS! It's just dumb and poor design, the current mechanic is NO better in this regard.

Edited by Vercinaigh, 12 September 2013 - 06:06 PM.


#47 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:06 PM

Incoming change: https://twitter.com/...246199259566080

IMO, probably not necessary, but not the worst idea in the world. I'm surprised they didn't just roll the previous change back, though haha.

#48 scJazz

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:51 PM

View PostAmaris the Usurper, on 11 September 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

*EPIC MATHS WITH PICTURES*

This thread +1 Interwebz! Made my little geeky heart jump for joy!

Quick comments... the UAC5 should be better than an AC5 by some margin. Right now clearly we have exceeded that margin. With 1 ton more weight, 1 extra crit slot and 15% less ammo it needs to be better for something.

I'm not certain that 20% jam would work. Most of this data only really covers the multiple UAC5 scenario. What about a Cicada? Centurion? Hunchback? Mechs that can have 1 UAC5 and need to be able to apply damage downrange with some level of reliability.

Finally, why exactly was it that Amaris had to do all this maths? Isn't there someone whose job it is to do stuff like similar?

#49 scJazz

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 12 September 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Incoming change: https://twitter.com/...246199259566080

IMO, probably not necessary, but not the worst idea in the world. I'm surprised they didn't just roll the previous change back, though haha.

*FACEPALM*

Well... at least they are listening to the Vocal Minority.

#50 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostTOGSolid, on 12 September 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Your assessment is incredibly wrong Victor. The whole point of the double fire mode is to do as much damage as possible in a short time with the risk of weapon jam. Overall DPS should be lower than single firing since you're giving up consistency to do a damage dump in one moment with the risk of jamming. If your DPS in double fire mode with jam time included is higher than it is in single (which it is right now) then that means there is zero risk to just holding down the button and you'd be silly not to just mash it out. Double fire DPS should be lower than single to provide a risk/reward opportunity versus slow firing the UAC.

As for your assumption that the UAC should do more DPS than an AC/5 that is also incorrect. The functional purpose of the UAC is the double fire mechanic. That's it. It shouldn't also outstrip the AC/5 in single fire mode otherwise there is no point for the AC/5 to exist. Buffing the AC/5 or nerfing the UAC/5's single fire to be even is exactly what needs to happen so that there are blatant tradeoffs for each weapon. The AC/5 is lighter but lacks the ability to do a fast damage dump. The UAC/5 is slightly heavier but gets the added ability to rapidly dump a bunch of damage in a short time with the risk of a jam. This tweak would also make the macro for the UAC/5 completely pointless.



OK correct me if I am wrong because I might be. In single fire mode, the UAC/5 and the AC/5 should have the exact same cooldown and thus the exact same DPS. Using double fire mode, the UAC/5 should have a significant DPS advantage but also have a chance to Jam. This is how I have always assumed the UAC/5 worked.

Therefore it makes sense that the UAC/5 in double fire mode should have a significant DPS increase, at least up until it Jams which might be after 2 shots or 10, there is no way of knowing. This means that the overall "reliable" DPS of a UAC/5 is always in question.

Now you also have to consider that the UAC/5 is larger (more crits), weighs more (an extra ton) and is hotter (due to rate of fire), therefore it should be expected that for balance purposes, the UAC/5 should have at least a slight advantage in sustained firepower over the AC/5.

Therefore over a given time (maybe 15-30 seconds) the UAC/5 should be expected to probably do 110-115% of the damage of a AC/5 on average. The catch is that since the UAC/5 is tied to a RNG, in one time block (the aforementioned 15-30 second period) it might do substantically more DPS than an AC/5 and in another time block, it will do substancially worse DPS.

The rub here is that when the stars all align with the moons, the UAC/5 is going to seem to be overpowered as hell because it is going to shred anything it is firing on. Unfortunately when this happens EVERYONE on the recieving end is going to start whining about it being OPed because in the ONE INSTANCE, it will be OPed. However the user is going to focus on that ONE INSTANCE where the UAC/5 Jams every other shot and is useless and is going to feel it is underpowered and guess what? THEY WILL BE RIGHT.....FOR THAT ONE INSTANCE.

This is how I see the UAC/5 right now. When you hit a roll on the UAC/5, especially if you mount multiples then they will be terrifying. However that doesn't always happen when using them. Most of the time they do just average amounts of damage comparable to what I could output with just about any other ballastic weapon.

So in anycase maybe I read the number wrong. I assumed the 4.55 damage in single shot mode was the value for both the UAC/5 and the AC/5. If that is not the case then yes the UAC/5 should have its SINGLE SHOT rate of fire reduced to be equal to that of the AC/5. However under no circumstances should the jam rate reduce the DPS "over time" to below that of the single shot rate of fire. That is why the numbers look fine to me. If the 4.55 damage is the same as the the AC/5, then 5.23 DPS for the double fire mode of the UAC/5 seems very much in line with how it should be performing.

#51 Lorcan Lladd

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:24 PM

To clarify:
Posted Image
I suppose it doesn't matter now that the UAC/5 is theoretically going to be fixed with a proper single fire mode - and possibly also longer cooldowns, jam rates and jam durations.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 12 September 2013 - 08:27 PM.


#52 TOGSolid

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:26 PM

Quote

OK correct me if I am wrong because I might be. In single fire mode, the UAC/5 and the AC/5 should have the exact same cooldown and thus the exact same DPS. Using double fire mode, the UAC/5 should have a significant DPS advantage but also have a chance to Jam. This is how I have always assumed the UAC/5 worked.

Yes, but go reread the OP's post. Right now if you factor in the time spent jammed you still end up with more DPS than just slow firing the weapon which is wrong. You should end up with less overall DPS when you factor in the jam time otherwise there is no risk involved to double firing the UAC. Overtime, double firing will lead to less net DPS but the advantage you gain is to be able to frontload a bunch of burst damage in a hurry before your guns jam.

Quote

I assumed the 4.55 damage in single shot mode was the value for both the UAC/5 and the AC/5. If that is not the case then yes the UAC/5 should have its SINGLE SHOT rate of fire reduced to be equal to that of the AC/5

The UAC/5 has a cooldown of 1.1 and the AC/5 has a cooldown of 1.5. The single shot UAC/5 still outperforms the AC/5.

Edited by TOGSolid, 12 September 2013 - 08:32 PM.


#53 Razorfish

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 08:37 PM

I have no data to back up the following statement. But is true (I swear!) :)

I have a Cataphract with 2 UAC5s, 1 AC2, and 2 MLs.

And it is grossly over powered.

I break 600 damage in almost every game. 800+ is not that uncommon.

My biggest concern is not enemy mechs, its overheating.

Edited by Razorfish, 12 September 2013 - 08:41 PM.


#54 VXJaeger

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:17 PM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 12 September 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Incoming change: https://twitter.com/...246199259566080

IMO, probably not necessary, but not the worst idea in the world. I'm surprised they didn't just roll the previous change back, though haha.

Just **** this **** :lol:
Why don't they make using macros forbidden, all problems w/ ballistics would be immediatelly gone.

#55 TOGSolid

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:35 PM

View PostVXJaeger, on 12 September 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Just **** this **** :lol:
Why don't they make using macros forbidden, all problems w/ ballistics would be immediatelly gone.

Because there's no way to detect them? Prove that player A was macroing his AC/2s and not just really well practiced at doing it manually. Prove that player B macro'd his UAC/5s and isn't just using a metronome to maintain a perfect shot pattern.

You can't.

Edited by TOGSolid, 12 September 2013 - 10:35 PM.


#56 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:41 PM

View PostVXJaeger, on 12 September 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

Just **** this **** :lol:
Why don't they make using macros forbidden, all problems w/ ballistics would be immediatelly gone.


IMO the best way to do ultras is to just avoid stuff that can be macroed in the first place. My bad idea is to have them steadily increase ROF over time, up to some cap, a la some of the machine guns in Borderlands. Rate of increase and cap can be used as balancing factors.

#57 TOGSolid

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:22 PM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 12 September 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:


IMO the best way to do ultras is to just avoid stuff that can be macroed in the first place. My bad idea is to have them steadily increase ROF over time, up to some cap, a la some of the machine guns in Borderlands. Rate of increase and cap can be used as balancing factors.

The UAC/5 matching the AC/5s single shot RoF will kill the advantage of the UAC macro so whoopdeedoo. The worst that'll happen is that it does AC/5 DPS. Onoes.

Edited by TOGSolid, 12 September 2013 - 11:28 PM.


#58 Der_Goetz

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:52 PM

View PostRoyalewithcheese, on 12 September 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:


IMO the best way to do ultras is to just avoid stuff that can be macroed in the first place. My bad idea is to have them steadily increase ROF over time, up to some cap, a la some of the machine guns in Borderlands. Rate of increase and cap can be used as balancing factors.


+1 That is a special mechanic for the uac5 that is useful and make the weapon unique.

Edited by Drake Grayson, 12 September 2013 - 11:56 PM.


#59 VXJaeger

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 01:13 AM

View PostTOGSolid, on 12 September 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

The UAC/5 matching the AC/5s single shot RoF will kill the advantage of the UAC macro so whoopdeedoo. The worst that'll happen is that it does AC/5 DPS. Onoes.

Yes, and after UAC5's next one to nerf is 4*AC5-combo, it can be installed to more mechs than 3*UAC5.

Just nerf everything so every nerfwarrior can be happy 'cause THERE IS NO SUCH BALANCE EXISTENCE THAT CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED!!!

In the end only ones that enjoy this game are "generic player ******" who don't care to use their precious time to learn the little things in the game. Just run here and there shouting *derp derp derp* and shooting somewhere over there, 'cause there's truly no reason to spend hundreds of games on learning any weapon to it's bones.

Sad that this game is taking this kinda shitfaceturn. Had hopes.

Edited by VXJaeger, 13 September 2013 - 01:27 AM.


#60 Der_Goetz

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Posted 13 September 2013 - 01:34 AM

It is not a direct nerf. It is a change to make the weapon unqiue among all weapons. If you start with the ROF equal to ac5 and increase it over time to a specific point when it jams through heat. You get more dps against the ac5 and a special role to supress an enemy. No macro and no problem of overpower.

But its only an idea. And you can think what you want. :lol:





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