23 replies to this topic

[Devil God]

Hi all,

I am back from long time off.

Does owned mechs need repair after matches ?

Does we have to pay to resupply ammos after matches ?

If I remember correctly, these are required back in closed beta.

Thanks

[Edustaja]

Nope. R&r has been removed.

[Devil God]

Then playing heavy or assault mech will be much easier because of no up keep needed.

How does this fair compare to playing lighter mechs ?

[ShockATC]

Well, Heavy/Assault Mechs may have the firepower, but Lights have the speed.
You can do very well in a Light Mech if you are a good Pilot.

[Stormwolf]

Many people couldn't maintain their mechs with R&R, many customs packed expensive weapons and components that quickly drained their wallets when they needed to be replaced.

I'm sad that R&R is gone, it pretty much eliminates mediums as the highly feasible mechs they are.

Edited by Stormwolf, 10 September 2013 - 01:17 AM.

[qki]

nah, mediums are still a very viable choice.

It all comes down to mobility really. Heavy and assault mechs may have the firepower, but they require a lot of work to be effective, since positioning is very important, and finding yourself in a bad spot in a slow mech can be a disaster.


As for R&R, that's really the only way to do it. It's a neat concept, when you have to think of your cost vs profit, but it only works if there's a risk of losing money on it. Otherwise, it becomes a simple tax. And there's no way to make the risk vs reward calculation without some indication of expected profits.

Then there are people, who quickly complained that premium players could afford to run the more expensive, "better" mechs more often, and accused the game of being P2W. That wasn't the case, but there are fewer ways to configure a 'low upkeep' mech, than there are ways of making the cutting-edge loadout, not just worrying about the increased vulnerability of XL engines. So repair costs are gone for good it seems.

[Earl White]

ShockATC, on 10 September 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Well, Heavy/Assault Mechs may have the firepower, but Lights have the speed.
You can do very well in a Light Mech if you are a good Pilot.

While you might do well in Lights. You will make the most C-bills in Heavies & Assaults, and Lights are some of the hardest chassis to play well (they have to work a lot more for their damage too).

The only time I see lights do average to high damage is when one team is full of complete donkeys that can't hit a barn at 10 feet. I know their role isn't purely damage, but it effects your C-bill income if you don't do a lot of if.

Edited by Earl White, 10 September 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[mailin]

I too miss R&R. I remember when I had the c-bills to buy my first Atlas. I lost my first match but I couldn't afford to fully repair and rearm it. Funny, but you saw a LOT fewer assaults then. Although the only assaults from which one could choose were the Awesome and Atlas.

[Stormwolf]

mailin, on 10 September 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

I too miss R&R. I remember when I had the c-bills to buy my first Atlas. I lost my first match but I couldn't afford to fully repair and rearm it. Funny, but you saw a LOT fewer assaults then. Although the only assaults from which one could choose were the Awesome and Atlas.

I was running a stock Centurion, I never had any problems with maintaining it. Even more so when the cash reserves of other people were starting to run out due to all the expensive XL engines that needed repairs.

[Darwins Dog]

R&R was taken out because it never got used (that's what was announced at the time). Nearly everyone just clicked auto repair and auto rearm (or took the free 75% ammo refill). There were complaints that premium players were getting P2W benefits (you needed premium to make money in a ASRM6 splat cat for instance), but the reality is that it just didn't add anything to the game. There was never a choice of "do I repair the LL or the SRM6?"

They are considering a durability system for the near future where (presumably) items will wear out over time and need to be replaced, but that's in the "discussing it as a possibility" phase and may never happen. It was mentioned in the latest NGNG interview with Bryan.

[DEMAX51]

Earl White, on 10 September 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

The only time I see lights do average to high damage is when one team is full of complete donkeys that can't hit a barn at 10 feet. I know their role isn't purely damage, but it effects your C-bill income if you don't do a lot of if.

I still do quite well in Lights, even when the enemy team isn't derp-tastic. If you know how to play 'em you can earn just as much as an Assault.

[Devil God]

I still think there should be R&R, and income need to be tuned for different classes of mech after matches.

Light
easy to make good profit.

Med
makes ok profit.

Heavy
need to play well to make some profit
still break even if not play okay
may lose some money if play very badly

Assault
need to play okay to break even
lose money if play badly

Hero mech
even when play very badly, they should all at least break even ( I don't see this is P2W )

the income model is mostly result of damages and kills while others are not big factor of income, so this favors the high damage mechs, and without maintanence cost it favors even more toward some type of mech which is somewhat BIAS game structure balance

there should be something to keep players on how to play well in matches to make enough profit to maintain their mech

as for the resupply, there shouldn't be free 75% resupply, players shall pay for each single round they buy

however, they shall not be force to buy a ton of ammo even they used only 1 round

lets say 27K per 1 ton of SRM ammo, 1 round should be only 270

or players can buy extra spare ammo, and resupply when they are needed

[Devil God]

DEMAX51, on 10 September 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

I still do quite well in Lights, even when the enemy team isn't derp-tastic. If you know how to play 'em you can earn just as much as an Assault.

How many of good light mech pilots are there in MWO ?

I am certainly not 1 of them.

How much percentage of players are good light mech pilots ?

It would be better to look at the data/stats in overall picture rather than few.

[DEMAX51]

Devil God, on 10 September 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

How many of good light mech pilots are there in MWO ?

I am certainly not 1 of them.

How much percentage of players are good light mech pilots ?

It would be better to look at the data/stats in overall picture rather than few.

They've also said recently they plan to add more ways for Lights and Mediums to earn c-bills, and that they're going to be making adjustments to Light 'Mechs to make them more viable (the same way they made adjustments to Mediums recently).

[Koniving]

qki, on 10 September 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

nah, mediums are still a very viable choice.

It all comes down to mobility really. Heavy and assault mechs may have the firepower, but they require a lot of work to be effective, since positioning is very important, and finding yourself in a bad spot in a slow mech can be a disaster.


As for R&R, that's really the only way to do it. It's a neat concept, when you have to think of your cost vs profit, but it only works if there's a risk of losing money on it. Otherwise, it becomes a simple tax. And there's no way to make the risk vs reward calculation without some indication of expected profits.

Then there are people, who quickly complained that premium players could afford to run the more expensive, "better" mechs more often, and accused the game of being P2W. That wasn't the case, but there are fewer ways to configure a 'low upkeep' mech, than there are ways of making the cutting-edge loadout, not just worrying about the increased vulnerability of XL engines. So repair costs are gone for good it seems.

There were such issues with things like that. One of the reasons this was the case, however, was the system charged you for everything, including normal stuff. When you add the expense of normal stuff + the good stuff it was too much.

Now, what if the normal stuff was somewhat free? Say repair of all non-upgraded components (standard structure, standard armor, standard engine, single heatsinks, regular PPCs, AC/10, AC/5s, etc.) is free and you can have up to 4 tons of ammo for each kind of weapon free (LRMs count as one, SRMs count as one, Streaks in its variations count as one, AC/2 AC/5 AC/10 etc. count as separate but AC/10 and LB-10 count as one for reasons below).

And the rare stuff is not free: Say Ferro armor (pay to repair for what's damaged, cheap), Endo Steel (only pay when structure is damaged, EXPENSIVE), double heatsinks (pay when damaged or destroyed), Artemis (on damaged missile weapons), ER PPC (Rare Tech), LB-10x (Reason: Lost Tech, CAN/SHOULD fire AC/10 ammo as well), XL engine (obvious reasons).

For any ammunition beyond the "4 tons for each weapon type" rule, you pay for what you've spent of it. Say you spent a little bit of the 5th ton, you pay for that. You spent 7 tons of ammo, you pay for 3 because your faction refuses to pay it for you when you're so wasteful.

It's a fairly solid idea as an entry level balancing tool. It had been said in the past that loyalty points are supposed to allow us to gain ranks within our factions, which then improve our income.

Higher rank = more income = better equipment = affordable repair bills.
Lower rank = lousy income (kinda like now) = 'standard' equipment = no repair bills = normal grind without being punished.
Of course you slap on the high tech {Scrap} early, and it's gonna hurt financially.

....Ah, what they could have done with the system. Oh well.

A problem with this though, unless double heatsinks actually work like double heatsinks, to use MWO's DHS is to be pay to win if they are put under repair and rearm.

Spoiler

Because of how they raise the capacity, at the very beginning with just 10 doubles, they are more than two times better than 10 standards.

(30 base + 10*2DHS = 50 threshold (capacity)
50 - 30 base = 20 / 10 = 2.0/sec cooling.)
(30 base + 10*1SHS = 40 threshold
40 - 30 = 10 / 10 = 1.0/sec cooling.)

2 = two times greater than 1. Check.
50 does not equal 40. This isn't right, and it's nothing like tabletop (no matter how you break down tabletop, that base limit and the amount of heat you cool down will never translate back to tabletop. Ever. Therefore the system isn't right. Worse, the higher your limit to shutdown, the more you can alpha strike.)

"But double heatsinks are 1.4." The ones you add "after" the 250 engine, yes. Of course if you don't have a 250 engine minimum you're cheating yourself out of the 10 "2 times" heatsinks that come with it.

Yes, at some point, DHS becomes 'simply twice as good', and eventually 'not as good' -- but then there's something screwy with pilot unlocks giving increased threshold and cooling and SHS where something, somewhere, isn't working. So that lead SHS is supposed to get in alpha strike ability too, doesn't happen.

But again I digress, if the capacity is identical for both, then DHS will be exactly twice as good as SHS for cooling even at bare minimum, and thus it will not be pay to win under repair and rearm, because your alpha strike limit will be identical.

Example: If it were set between 40 and 50 at 45, that's the heat of 3 ER PPCs at 15 heat each. 15 + 15 + 15 = 45 = shutdown. Doubles, singles, and doesn't matter how many I have, if it's set to 45 I can fire 3 ER PPCs and shutdown.

But, currently (without the penalty system), using SHS if you fired 3 ER PPCs you'd shutdown and get damage, where DHS you could fire 3 ER PPCs and just keep walking. That isn't fair.
The capacity needs to be identical for it to be fair.

Stormwolf, on 10 September 2013 - 01:16 AM, said:

Many people couldn't maintain their mechs with R&R, many customs packed expensive weapons and components that quickly drained their wallets when they needed to be replaced.

I'm sad that R&R is gone, it pretty much eliminates mediums as the highly feasible mechs they are.

I miss it too. Its removal doesn't eliminate mediums as feasible mechs, but it eliminates mediums as the "workhorse" of any battlefield as no one has a real purpose for using them.

Edited by Koniving, 12 September 2013 - 11:16 AM.

[mailin]

Under the old R&R system, if you lost in an Atlas it was really expensive to repair. It was also terribly expensive to repair lights due to the XL and DHS. For that reason, I think there were a LOT of mediums running around. I know I spent my fair share of cockpit time in a medium trying to make enough money to be able to fix my lights.

[IllCaesar]

You can't really adjust the cost of repair-and-reload to each mech because by doing so you are indefinitely assigning mechs of each class to a role that they must fufill, and it also eliminates multiple variants, maybe even entire chassis, from play. Like mechs are best suited for scouting and skirmishing, yes, but some mechs in that class are better than others for those roles, and just because a light mech isn't necessarily doing those as well as another mech would, it doesn't mean that they're being any more or less effective. Additionally, some useful characteristics just can't have a tangible value attached to them, especially by class. The Atlas D-DC is an attention-getter, its a distraction - how do you quantify that? Do you quantify that any different from any other Atlas variants, let alone entirely different assault mechs? What about pilots that talk a lot and convey useless information vs pilots that don't say much but when they do, its something very useful to the match. There is far too much metagame at play to get anything close to fair.

Darwins Dog, on 10 September 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

They are considering a durability system for the near future where (presumably) items will wear out over time and need to be replaced, but that's in the "discussing it as a possibility" phase and may never happen. It was mentioned in the latest NGNG interview with Bryan.

Based on every other F2P game I've tried out (and I had a thing going on where I played a new F2P MMO every week) something like weapons wearing down over time does absolutely nothing positive. It scares away new players, it keeps returning players from getting back into the game, it needlessly adds more burden onto the player making it more grindy, it can leave you in a limbo of perpetual sucking-at-the-game, and every single time I encountered the function it adds a feeling of P2W, as weapons you bought with real-game money would not degrade - every single time it was there.

Re-arm and reload is a neat concept, yeah, but it'll hurt the game. Just because its a neat idea, doesn't mean it'll do anything good for the game *cough* 1:1 timeline *cough*. Gameplay needs come first - not tabletop rules or "cool" ideas.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 10 September 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[Lunatic_Asylum]

MarsAtlas, on 10 September 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

Based on every other F2P game I've tried out (and I had a thing going on where I played a new F2P MMO every week) .

I have never had so much time. Age of Conan alone takes 95% of my gaming time, and all other games, for the sole exception of less than five titles are worth my attention (which I do not play anyway). Dedication is the key. Pick one title and stick to it.
Why did I try Mechwarrior Online? I am an old fan of the series.

Edited by lunticasylum, 10 September 2013 - 08:02 PM.

[Devil God]

MarsAtlas, on 10 September 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

You can't really adjust the cost of repair-and-reload to each mech because by doing so you are indefinitely assigning mechs of each class to a role that they must fufill, and it also eliminates multiple variants, maybe even entire chassis, from play. Like mechs are best suited for scouting and skirmishing, yes, but some mechs in that class are better than others for those roles, and just because a light mech isn't necessarily doing those as well as another mech would, it doesn't mean that they're being any more or less effective. Additionally, some useful characteristics just can't have a tangible value attached to them, especially by class. The Atlas D-DC is an attention-getter, its a distraction - how do you quantify that? Do you quantify that any different from any other Atlas variants, let alone entirely different assault mechs? What about pilots that talk a lot and convey useless information vs pilots that don't say much but when they do, its something very useful to the match. There is far too much metagame at play to get anything close to fair.



Based on every other F2P game I've tried out (and I had a thing going on where I played a new F2P MMO every week) something like weapons wearing down over time does absolutely nothing positive. It scares away new players, it keeps returning players from getting back into the game, it needlessly adds more burden onto the player making it more grindy, it can leave you in a limbo of perpetual sucking-at-the-game, and every single time I encountered the function it adds a feeling of P2W, as weapons you bought with real-game money would not degrade - every single time it was there.

Re-arm and reload is a neat concept, yeah, but it'll hurt the game. Just because its a neat idea, doesn't mean it'll do anything good for the game *cough* 1:1 timeline *cough*. Gameplay needs come first - not tabletop rules or "cool" ideas.

R&R is not just a neat concept, it is one of gameplay balance feature, at least, I believe is necessary, and it makes sense.

Tiger tanks was the most feared back in WW2, but it was slow and hard to maintain.

However, M4 Sherman had crappy armor and 75mm can't even pen German tanks front armor, but it was the main workhorse because it was easy build and maintain.

Why don't nations who design tanks don't make heavy tanks these day, but main battle tanks ( upgrade of medium tanks ) ? Because big and slow is only a target, and no matter how much armor you have, there will still be a point when it breaks.

What about making light class XL engines for lights, so they can have lower repair cost just for lights ?

How about giving 2 months "newbie time" to new players ? So they can have free R&R while they try to learn the game.

Can we give some bonus to heavy and assault tanks for the damage they take when they "got the attention" ?

Things don't always work perfectly, but if we are willing try and make changes, there will be chance to find some happy mediums even it may not be perfect.

There are so many different things we can try to improve gameplay balance, and that is much better than keep making different kinds of premium mechs.

Edited by Devil God, 10 September 2013 - 11:04 PM.

[IllCaesar]

lunticasylum, on 10 September 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Dedication is the key. Pick one title and stick to it.
Why did I try Mechwarrior Online? I am an old fan of the series.

I wasn't doing it to look for a game I'd like, I was doing it because I was interested in the concept of a free-to-play game, and wanted to see how well they were implemented. For the most part, it was rather poorly. I'm playing MWO because I'm a big fan of the Battletech universe and the MechWarrior games, and I would've started months ago if I had internet at home.

Devil God, on 10 September 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

R&R is not just a neat concept, it is one of gameplay balance feature, at least, I believe is necessary, and it makes sense.

Tiger tanks was the most feared back in WW2, but it was slow and hard to maintain.

However, M4 Sherman had crappy armor and 75mm can't even pen German tanks front armor, but it was the main workhorse because it was easy build and maintain.

Why don't nations who design tanks don't make heavy tanks these day, but main battle tanks ( upgrade of medium tanks ) ? Because big and slow is only a target, and no matter how much armor you have, there will still be a point when it breaks.

Okay, how is that relevant, let alone useful for implementation in the game? I understand what your point is, but how is that a justification for taxing players, many to the point that the game becomes a chore of playing keep-up rather than an enjoyable experience? How is that a justification for creating a entire class of mechs where only those who have premium accounts can really play with them?

Quote

What about making light class XL engines for lights, so they can have lower repair cost just for lights?

How about giving 2 months "newbie time" to new players ? So they can have free R&R while they try to learn the game.

Can we give some bonus to heavy and assault tanks for the damage they take when they "got the attention" ?

What about just not implementing repair-and-reload? I could poke holes in all of those, but instead, just answer me this - what is actually gained from repair and reload? In the short run, you'll see more people using lighter mechs than they normally would, but how is that good for the game? Artificially phasing out an entire class of mechs because its just not financially feasible to keep using them, rather than creating a genuinely balanced game where there's actually real advantages in the battle to using the smaller mechs - that doesn't improve anything. You're just changing the metagame so it forces a large amount of the community into using a mech they don't want to use because they can't play keep-up. This is a game, you know, fun, right? This is starting to sound like EVE Online, which a lot of players only continue playing because they don't want to feel as though their financial investment was a waste, rather than because the game is, you know, fun. Doing what you suggests will over time decimate the playerbase, as more and more players will leave. R&R was unnecessarily taxing players enough as it was months ago, imagine the toll it'll take on players now after the C-Bill nerf. We already have players playing the game because the small gains aren't "worth it", imagine when most players are actually losing money every single match? People will leave the game en-masse, as only those above a certain skill level will be able to continue playing the game without having to shell out more money to buy a mech to sell for C-Bills every time they go bankrupt. Remember, this is a game - fun, not a chore. As only the best-of-the-best players remain, say, the top 10%, those who are in the lower segments of that population will see less earnings, and they too will end up like the lower skill players, not making enough C-Bills in a match to make up for costs. The only way to circumvent this is to either spend an excess of MC to buy stuff and sell it for C-Bills, or for basically everybody to start running light mechs not because they're good with light mechs, or because they like them, but because its the only way a game can be "worthwhile". The game will become a chore. Those people will leave. Nobody continues to play a game that has become a completely unfun, boring chore if they are sane without some sort of coercion, such as only staying because of the community. Buying Premium Time would make playing easier, for a while, but as more and more players get culled and the skip gap is widened, premium time will only make the deficit less painful, and does nothing but delay the inevitable. MechWarrior Online will slowly become a desert if you put a tax on players that makes the literally not worth playing. What you're describing is a model I've seen before, and nothing good comes from it. Everybody will move onto something else, something better. The model you describe is cannibalistic towards all other players and masochistic towards yourself to continue playing.

Quote

Things don't always work perfectly, but if we are willing try and make changes, there will be chance to find some happy mediums even it may not be perfect.

I already see medium mechs fielded quite often. Rather than taxing players and forcing the death of MWO by creating is a barren wasteland, how about instead we, you know, just buff the medium mechs? No threads popping up every hour saying "Its literally not worth my time to play." No players leave en-masse because the game has become an addictive chore rather than an actually fruitful use of time spent. Maybe a few threads whining about "nerf this, buff that", but metagame sorts out the majority of gameplay kinks without even needing developer interference.

Quote

There are so many different things we can try to improve gameplay balance, and that is much better than keep making different kinds of premium mechs.

Yeah, there are so many different things - so why are you suggesting something that'll destroy the playerbase in the long run so the game will have to be shut down?