231 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

scJazz, on 12 September 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Not that I really feel like defending PGI but...

As for Aiming and Movement penalties, seriously, you do not want to do that stuff in a MOBA with a Server Authoritative Architecture! With network latency and server side time slicing the effects would be seriously random appearing and would blow all the HSR work they have done right out of the water.

Not that I really like pretending that the current movement penalties are working as intended, but we already have movement penalties for terrain. Apart from the fact that the maps are completely ruining a rather good idea by having random angles and tiny impassable rocks, this suggests that the same could be done based on a mech's heat. In regards to aiming penalties, I don't see why it would be so difficult to adjust the arm aiming speed, convergence or torso twisting speed, considering that this is adjusted easily and automatically through piloting skills.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Dimento Graven, on 12 September 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

I don't invest time and/or money in purchasing a 'mech to NOT be able to pilot it when I want.

What a giant F-YOU to the players THAT would be eh?

So at the swim park because you paid the admission fee and bought a sno-cone, you're allowed to urinate in the pool if you want to. That's your prerogative, and posters like myself are going to the management requesting more chlorine for the pool along with separate Jacuzzi's for VIP members who want to urinate all they want so the rest of us can enjoy a fun swim.

Edited by lockwoodx, 12 September 2013 - 04:12 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

The heat system does encourage alpha striking to shutdown instead of managing the trade-offs of sustainability and burst DPS, and alpha striking with identical weapons is the best way to maximize precision and minimize your exposure to enemy fire, by allowing you to spend most of your time either in cover or at least torso twisting away so your enemies damage doesn't hit vital spots while you only need a brief moment of exposure to target an enemies weak spot.

I feel cheating by creating this long run-on sentence, but I wanted to be specific enough to be meaningful.

I could have said
"Convergence + Heat System".
But maybe the above sentence is wrong and I should say:
"PGI lacks sufficient experience, training or manpower in game design to analyse their game and understand its balance or create a balanced design."

[Dimento Graven]

scJazz, on 12 September 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Not that I really feel like defending PGI but...

The TT Heat table translates very poorly to a FPS where players enjoy and are allowed to customize their Mechs.

Ammo explosion
Aiming Modifier
Shutdown
Movement Modifier

Ammo Explosion is easiest to comment on... taduh the new Meta becomes no one pilots anything that includes anything but Energy Weapons and Gauss Rifles.

Shutdown... not so difficult but is it really worth it? People hate random stuff happening to them. The new complaint of the month becomes "I've shut down early everytime in the last 47 matches!!! PGI's RNG sucks!"

As for Aiming and Movement penalties, seriously, you do not want to do that stuff in a MOBA with a Server Authoritative Architecture! With network latency and server side time slicing the effects would be seriously random appearing and would blow all the HSR work they have done right out of the water.

You are incorrect in ALL your assumptions.

1. Custom 'mechs have been in existence, even since TT days (and in fact TT 'mechs are orders of magnitude more customizable than MWO 'mechs), and the heat affects table has done a great job for 30 years in balancing them.
2. Other computerized iterations have had some level of customization AND a heat affects table and have done well without some of the bastardized kludges we've had to suffer through in MWO.
3. So what if the "new meta" changes and no one carries weapons with ammo? Actually, only the less skilled player would go that route. The SKILLED player would just quickly learn to avoid overheating while they have ammo.
4. The current shut down mechanism works just fine and supposedly PGI has stated that the current mechanism equates to the first shut down roll on the TT table (hence my picture representing it), that can be continued, only in a more built out table the time available to press that "O" key to over ride would need to be halved at each level of potential shut down. Simulating the 'randomness', relying on your own awareness and reflexes to hit it.
5. We already have aiming penalties while jumping, or being hit with AC and missiles. The same sort of mechanisms could be adapted to be activated, and increased at specific heat levels.
6. We already have movement penalties when traversing terrain beyond specific angles. The same sort of mechanism could be adapted to decrease movement at specific heat levels.
7. You assume the heat affects table has to match affect for affect between TT and this game. It does not. In fact this game could have additional heat affects like weapon misfires, increased jamming percentages for ALL ballistic weapons, things not easily implemented in TT, but much more easily doable in a computer sim.

Every person I've come across who fights adding heat affects table is typically someone who I've found out later is either a boat pilot, or a light pilot. In boats and lights a more robust heat affects table with movement and aim modifiers scares the living pee out of...

What's your primary ride in game?

[Joseph Mallan]

lockwoodx, on 12 September 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

So at the swim park because you paid the admission fee and bought a sno-cone, you're allowed to urinate in the pool if you want to. That's your prerogative, and posters like myself as going to the management requesting more chlorine for the pool along with separate Jacuzzi's for VIP members who want to urinate all they want so the rest of us can enjoy a fun swim.

This is just silly.

I have 3 Assault Mechs and a Light. If the Match maker cannot place me in a PUG group that needs one of those classes, the game is in more trouble than we are led to believe.

[Dimento Graven]

lockwoodx, on 12 September 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

So at the swim park because you paid the admission fee and bought a sno-cone, you're allowed to urinate in the pool if you want to. That's your prerogative, and posters like myself as going to the management requesting more chlorine for the pool along with separate Jacuzzi's for VIP members who want to urinate all they want so the rest of us can enjoy a fun swim.

Wow... You equate being able to pilot a 'mech you invested time and/or money in, when you want to, to public urination?

Man someone got hit by the Obama-drama-llama big time didn't they?

I'm sorry but that's just idiotic. Try a REAL argument please.

Those of us who may have purchased hero 'mechs or donated for the Sarah Jenner might find it offensive that you compare our desire to pilot these paid for 'mechs as 'peeing in a pool'.

You just come off sounding like such an [noble mechwarrior]

Edited by Dakkath, 12 September 2013 - 06:32 PM.
language.

[Matthew Craig]

A couple of items I can speak to, disconnects are a pain and they did increase in the last patch prior to the hotfix as a bug was introduced that was serializing bad data over to other clients causing them to disconnect, this is what the hotfix addressed. Though sadly disconnects are for the most part not going away with online gaming. Potentially when we have lobbies we may see a reduction as players can come and go in the lobby; however, its not a guarantee. Users with poor connections can still disconnect during the launch phase or at any time during the game itself, and its very difficult to counter players who actively try to cable pull to avoid losing. Thankfully in this respect MWO works pretty well as your Mech remains in game to be blown up even if your pilot goes inactive.

Something that has been considered is upon detecting a disconnect shifting the reward balance for the outnumbered team such that there are greater c-bill rewards for the team down a man, this is potentially something we could do if the community agreed it was a good option.

With regards to the match maker matching up too broad a range of skilled players; as stated in my last technical update we're addressing this and the changes are coming in the next patch. The range that the match maker pulls from for weight class and Elo are tightening up significantly which should make it much harder to get a game with too wide a range of Mech weights or pilot skills, the downside may be slightly longer wait times, we'll see when the patch goes live.

On a general note there is little that the community points out that is wrong with the game that we aren't well aware of, be it technical bugs, gameplay balance, or missing features. We generally just have to make daily trade-offs about what issues we address next i.e. we can't do everything at once. If there is something you think we're not aware of just file a support ticket its still the best way of ensuring we're aware of all issues and as always were grateful for your patience while we get around to the various issues.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Matchmaking needs firm Elo and weight class boundaries, and preferably a seperate PUG queue; additionally ECM needs to be completely retooled or removed until informational warfare can be implemented in a comprehensive fashion; and finally the shotgun approach to weapons balance need to stop, if you significantly nerf the current 'meta' weapon, do not simultaniously buff otherweapons, do one or the other.

[3rdworld]

Dimento Graven, on 12 September 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

You are incorrect in ALL your assumptions.

1. Custom 'mechs have been in existence, even since TT days (and in fact TT 'mechs are orders of magnitude more customizable than MWO 'mechs), and the heat affects table has done a great job for 30 years in balancing them.
2. Other computerized iterations have had some level of customization AND a heat affects table and have done well without some of the bastardized kludges we've had to suffer through in MWO.
3. So what if the "new meta" changes and no one carries weapons with ammo? Actually, only the less skilled player would go that route. The SKILLED player would just quickly learn to avoid overheating while they have ammo.
4. The current shut down mechanism works just fine and supposedly PGI has stated that the current mechanism equates to the first shut down roll on the TT table (hence my picture representing it), that can be continued, only in a more built out table the time available to press that "O" key to over ride would need to be halved at each level of potential shut down. Simulating the 'randomness', relying on your own awareness and reflexes to hit it.
5. We already have aiming penalties while jumping, or being hit with AC and missiles. The same sort of mechanisms could be adapted to be activated, and increased at specific heat levels.
6. We already have movement penalties when traversing terrain beyond specific angles. The same sort of mechanism could be adapted to decrease movement at specific heat levels.
7. You assume the heat affects table has to match affect for affect between TT and this game. It does not. In fact this game could have additional heat affects like weapon misfires, increased jamming percentages for ALL ballistic weapons, things not easily implemented in TT, but much more easily doable in a computer sim.

Every person I've come across who fights adding heat affects table is typically someone who I've found out later is either a boat pilot, or a light pilot. In boats and lights a more robust heat affects table with movement and aim modifiers scares the living pee out of...

What's your primary ride in game?

So the heat effects table would work, but PGI will need to balance it.

What thread are we in again?

I think heat penalties won't work because of the nature of heat generation ie instantaneous, or would need to be balanced by mech which again requires PGI to do it, and I have no faith in their abilities. They could possibly work with an overhall of the heat system, lower cap + more dissipation. But they have said numerous times that isn't going to happen.

My main ride is a stalker:

3LL + AC/20
1PPC,1ERPPC, gauss
3LL + Gauss
2PPC, 2LL, 2MLs
2PPC + 3LLs

are the builds I generally use.

Matthew Craig, on 12 September 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

A couple of items I can speak to, disconnects are a pain and they did increase in the last patch prior to the hotfix as a bug was introduced that was serializing bad data over to other clients causing them to disconnect, this is what the hotfix addressed. Though sadly disconnects are for the most part not going away with online gaming. Potentially when we have lobbies we may see a reduction as players can come and go in the lobby; however, its not a guarantee. Users with poor connections can still disconnect during the launch phase or at any time during the game itself, and its very difficult to counter players who actively try to cable pull to avoid losing. Thankfully in this respect MWO works pretty well as your Mech remains in game to be blown up even if your pilot goes inactive.

Something that has been considered is upon detecting a disconnect shifting the reward balance for the outnumbered team such that there are greater c-bill rewards for the team down a man, this is potentially something we could do if the community agreed it was a good option.

With regards to the match maker matching up too broad a range of skilled players; as stated in my last technical update we're addressing this and the changes are coming in the next patch. The range that the match maker pulls from for weight class and Elo are tightening up significantly which should make it much harder to get a game with too wide a range of Mech weights or pilot skills, the downside may be slightly longer wait times, we'll see when the patch goes live.

On a general note there is little that the community points out that is wrong with the game that we aren't well aware of, be it technical bugs, gameplay balance, or missing features. We generally just have to make daily trade-offs about what issues we address next i.e. we can't do everything at once. If there is something you think we're not aware of just file a support ticket its still the best way of ensuring we're aware of all issues and as always were grateful for your patience while we get around to the various issues.

And reconnect is generally a feature of any modern game.

Edited by 3rdworld, 12 September 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[SiriusBeef]

The Vocal Minority is largely ignored when game mechanics and weapons balance are concerned. It's insane to me that PGI would not used past projects, like the NBT-Hardcore project, as a starting point for weapons/mech balancing.  IMHO HC was the closest to real balance in an MW game ever...

Edited by SiriusBeef, 12 September 2013 - 09:24 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Matthew Craig, on 12 September 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

...
On a general note there is little that the community points out that is wrong with the game that we aren't well aware of, be it technical bugs, gameplay balance, or missing features. We generally just have to make daily trade-offs about what issues we address next i.e. we can't do everything at once. If there is something you think we're not aware of just file a support ticket its still the best way of ensuring we're aware of all issues and as always were grateful for your patience while we get around to the various issues.

Not that I expect a response, but I'll 'shoot for the moon' anyway:

How in the heck do you START OUT designing a game based on BattleTech, WITHOUT a robust Heat Affects Table?

As I've indicated, ad nauseum in this and other posts it's been printed on EVERY SINGAL 'MECH SHEET EVER PRODUCED FOR THE PAST 30 YEARS!

How do you miss that? That's worse than having the match activation button labeled "launch". Every MechWarrior of any knowledge knows that 'mechs are DROPPED into battle, not "launched"...

Anyway the tripod of balance in BT has always been, weight, weaponry, heat.

We got the first two, but the last one is lacking...

[Biglead]

Only three posts in before the reading comprehension failed this thread.

[stjobe]

Matthew Craig, on 12 September 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

Something that has been considered is upon detecting a disconnect shifting the reward balance for the outnumbered team such that there are greater c-bill rewards for the team down a man, this is potentially something we could do if the community agreed it was a good option.

While I can't speak for the community as a whole, I do think this is a fantastically good idea and should be implemented ASAP.

[Navy Sixes]

Any single mech, weapon, or system that is so clearly advantageous all the time that to not use it is stupid..

ECM warrior online is still very much in effect.

Macro warrior online is following close behind.

[Deathlike]

Matthew Craig, on 12 September 2013 - 09:16 AM, said:

A couple of items I can speak to, disconnects are a pain and they did increase in the last patch prior to the hotfix as a bug was introduced that was serializing bad data over to other clients causing them to disconnect, this is what the hotfix addressed. Though sadly disconnects are for the most part not going away with online gaming. Potentially when we have lobbies we may see a reduction as players can come and go in the lobby; however, its not a guarantee. Users with poor connections can still disconnect during the launch phase or at any time during the game itself, and its very difficult to counter players who actively try to cable pull to avoid losing. Thankfully in this respect MWO works pretty well as your Mech remains in game to be blown up even if your pilot goes inactive.

The irony of that statement is that I got a "session lost" from the hotfix which wasn't related to my connection being lost (I still had a stable connection)... this hadn't happened before.

[TheBossHammer]

Lostdragon, on 12 September 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Time to kill is too low by a factor of at least two, ghost heat is a terrible system that needs to go away, heat capacity is too high and dissipation too low, hit registration still has some issues, lack of integrated voip is frustrating for pugs, and many mechs are either useless or OP due to hitboxes and/or scaling.

He's really, really wrong about the first part.

Coordinated fire kills too quickly, one on one kills too slowly, and it is impossible to carry a team without a build that breaks the game because hit detection is borked.

[Dimento Graven]

TheBossHammer, on 12 September 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

He's really, really wrong about the first part.

Coordinated fire kills too quickly, one on one kills too slowly, and it is impossible to carry a team without a build that breaks the game because hit detection is borked.

I disagree, coordinated fire kills at the right rate of speed, based on the skills of all the pilots involved.

One on one kills happen as quickly as the two pilot's skills will allow it. When I fight against a skilled pilot it takes a while, sometimes I even die... When I fight a poorly skilled pilot, I can typically eviscerate them in 2 or 3 shots, unless they're in an Atlas and/or NOT running an XL engine.

But, I do agree hit detection is borked, and HSR has some issues. I was in a match earlier today where I was just "close" to another 'mech and I started having rubber banding issues. This only happens when I get close to SOME enemy 'mechs, not all, so maybe it's a ping/latency issue confusing the server causing my location to be reset over and over, but it's a big *** pain for sure.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 12 September 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

3rdworld, on 12 September 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

So the heat effects table would work, but PGI will need to balance it.

What thread are we in again?

Yes. And what's great about it is, that even allows for differing heat affects tables between clan and IS, and even down to certain chasis having their own heat related quirks too. Lots and LOTS of flexibility available when you have a robust heat affects table.

Quote

I think heat penalties won't work because of the nature of heat generation ie instantaneous, or would need to be balanced by mech which again requires PGI to do it, and I have no faith in their abilities. They could possibly work with an overhall of the heat system, lower cap + more dissipation. But they have said numerous times that isn't going to happen.

Yes, it's "REAL TIME", both heating and cooling, and they've already got a heat affects mechanism in place, that's why we shut down and/or take some heat related damage now. The issue is the implementation is SO weak it does not do the intended job of affecting balance.

Quote

My main ride is a stalker:

3LL + AC/20
1PPC,1ERPPC, gauss
3LL + Gauss
2PPC, 2LL, 2MLs
2PPC + 3LLs

are the builds I generally use...

And now I see why you don't want a robust heat affects table. Your builds for the most part have heat intensive alphas and a robust heat affects table would reduce your effectiveness if you were to rapid fire your alpha, which I'm sure you do like 99% of everyone else out there.

I own ~50 'mechs all weights and build outs from an ERPPC carrying spider to a missile boat Atlas, and I can tell you how I pilot the 'mechs now is a direct result from the weakness of the current heat affects table. My style would change a fair amount if I had to worry about slowing down, being able to aim, whether or not one of my weapons would fire, so on and so forth...

And PGI has said a LOT of things weren't going to happen:

3rd Person
Cooling pods

Are two that come to mind almost immediately, and yet, they're there. Never say never, the real world has a way of making you pay for it...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 12 September 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[Sephlock]

"Dev's don't listen, or listen to the loudest and most unskilled people".

[Lostdragon]

TheBossHammer, on 12 September 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

He's really, really wrong about the first part.

Coordinated fire kills too quickly, one on one kills too slowly, and it is impossible to carry a team without a build that breaks the game because hit detection is borked.

I disagree with you, I think FF kills are way too quick and 1v1 kills are also too quick in most cases. Pretty much the only 1v1 fights that I find fun are light vs. light. Anything else is usually over in seconds. Currently for the vast majority of mechs the best strategy is to just try to destroy their CT. Attempting to disarm an opponent is pretty pointless since with only slightly more time invested you could destroy him/her. What's the point in having armor sections or crit weapons if the only thing worth shooting at is the CT on most mechs and engines can't be crit?