25 replies to this topic

[Jonas]

So to day like many others I got my Mech shot out from under me. It was late in the match so I decided to spectate a bit. I for get what Mech I was watching out of but they had UAC 5 and well it just seemed to jam a whole lot. Got me thinking is the UAC really that much faster than a AC.

So I went to MWO wiki and looked at the rates of fire :

AC/5: 1,5 seconds
UAC/5: 1.1 seconds

.4 seconds doesnt seem to be worth the threat of jamming? Or is it ?

Now I haven't used ether weapon system lately I don't have a Mech that even has 2 Ballistic slots for me to try them again at the moment

The question is on a pure rate of fire vs. jam rate which is the better weapon I know you can strafe a little with the UAC and snipe a little better with AC

Bonus Question the AC 2 has a rate of fire of .52 that is about 3 rounds ( 6 damage ) to the AC 5 1 round ( 5 damage ) or 2 ( 10 damage ) rounds of the UAC 5 wouldn't be better to run say 2 AC2 in stead of a AC5 ?

[Wascot]

I run the UAC/5 every now and then on my CDA-M for giggles and my experience with the gun is that it jams...a lot. Now I had the pleasure of spectating a JM6-DD with 4xUAC/5 and that guy was a beast! I mean yeah he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, but man seeing a macro fire that thing perfectly is a thing of beauty. Saw the CT armor of an Atlas melt against that pure DPS.

Moral of the story? If you want to use the UAC/5, go use a macro. Seriously PGI actually allows this kind of {Scrap}? The 'jamming' function of the UAC only affects players who are dumb enough to play fair. Pretty useless to have a feature that only affect players who play fair...oh well?

[Kekkone]

Jonas, on 13 September 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

So to day like many others I got my Mech shot out from under me. It was late in the match so I decided to spectate a bit. I for get what Mech I was watching out of but they had UAC 5 and well it just seemed to jam a whole lot. Got me thinking is the UAC really that much faster than a AC.

So I went to MWO wiki and looked at the rates of fire :

AC/5: 1,5 seconds
UAC/5: 1.1 seconds

.4 seconds doesnt seem to be worth the threat of jamming? Or is it ?

Now I haven't used ether weapon system lately I don't have a Mech that even has 2 Ballistic slots for me to try them again at the moment

The question is on a pure rate of fire vs. jam rate which is the better weapon I know you can strafe a little with the UAC and snipe a little better with AC

Bonus Question the AC 2 has a rate of fire of .52 that is about 3 rounds ( 6 damage ) to the AC 5 1 round ( 5 damage ) or 2 ( 10 damage ) rounds of the UAC 5 wouldn't be better to run say 2 AC2 in stead of a AC5 ?

Yes, it is worth it. It only has a chance to jam when double firing (2 shots in 1.1 s). Firing it at the recycle rate doesn't jam the UAC. At it's current implementation, it is quite OP compared to other ballistics.

Wascot, on 13 September 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

I run the UAC/5 every now and then on my CDA-M for giggles and my experience with the gun is that it jams...a lot. Now I had the pleasure of spectating a JM6-DD with 4xUAC/5 and that guy was a beast! I mean yeah he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, but man seeing a macro fire that thing perfectly is a thing of beauty. Saw the CT armor of an Atlas melt against that pure DPS.

Moral of the story? If you want to use the UAC/5, go use a macro. Seriously PGI actually allows this kind of {Scrap}? The 'jamming' function of the UAC only affects players who are dumb enough to play fair. Pretty useless to have a feature that only affect players who play fair...oh well?

No, you don't need a macro to use it effectively. Group double firing even 2 UAC's at the current jam rate will melt anything most of the time. Timing them at around 1.1 s thus avoiding jamming isn't that hard, it has a nice sound effect for recycle.

[Wascot]

I was spectating the guy throughout the match since I got cored early on by a sniper, and the guy was firing all 4 of them separately at perfect intervals. Now I don't know about you, but I think that is beyond the capabilities of normal humans to fire all 4 guns separately perfectly to avoid jam times. I do agree that it sounds pretty nice with the macro. Four of them firing at regular intervals sound like a more menacing 4xMG.

I agree that you don't need to use a macro to use the gun effectively (especially if you can aim), but why in the hell would you not use a macro after seeing the results?

[Kekkone]

Wascot, on 13 September 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

I was spectating the guy throughout the match since I got cored early on by a sniper, and the guy was firing all 4 of them separately at perfect intervals. Now I don't know about you, but I think that is beyond the capabilities of normal humans to fire all 4 guns separately perfectly to avoid jam times. I do agree that it sounds pretty nice with the macro. Four of them firing at regular intervals sound like a more menacing 4xMG.

I agree that you don't need to use a macro to use the gun effectively (especially if you can aim), but why in the hell would you not use a macro after seeing the results?

And the guy could've double group fired 4 UAC's to dish out ~40 DPS to a single component. 40 DPS! A 100% Atlas has about 5 seconds to live at that rate. In that 5 seconds the jamming dice are rolled 4 or 5 times. It is improbable, but not impossible to just hold down the mouse button and succeed.

I'm not trying to debate whether a computer is better at timing the shots. I'm debating its significance. Macros aren't an automatic win button, they cannot circumvent recycle time. Any mech carrying 36 tons of weapons + ammo is a walking menace, and a glass cannon at the same time.

EDIT: To emphasize my point on chain fired ballistic macros:

Annoying? Yes
Disorienting? Yes

Magically increase damage? No
Impossible to deal with? No

Edited by Kekkone, 13 September 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Wascot]

I agree that a macro cannot circumvent recycle times (to the best of my knowledge anyway), but it did circumvent the only downside to using the UAC/5. What's the downside to the weapon if you can circumvent any possibility of jamming?

I can only speak from my own experience, but firing just ONE UAC/5 by holding down the mouse button jams without fail. You mean to tell me by some stroke of luck this guy managed to fire off 125+ rounds without jamming once? It's not impossible, but there must be a reason why that Jaeger was running 4xUAC/5 right?

Kekkone, on 13 September 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Magically increase damage? No

Actually it does (macro) increase overall damage output as there is no lag between recycle times and the utter lack of weapon jam.

[Modo44]

The UAC5 shreds on its own, even if you simply hold fire (use the jams for defensive twisting). The macro slightly decreases the maximum DPS, but removes all jams, which many people value more.

[S3dition]

With 2 UAC and no macro I actually have to TRY to get less than 500 damage per match. It's pretty insane. Even with the jam it does beast DPS.

It honestly makes me wonder about the RAC's and pure ballistic assault builds like the Kraken. Things could get very scary.

Edited by S3dition, 13 September 2013 - 04:18 AM.

[stjobe]

Yes, the UAC/5 is worth the jam rate; even with it and constantly double-firing, it out-DPS's the AC/5. See this thread for an in-depth analysis: http://mwomercs.com/...amage-analysis/.

In fact, it out-DPS's the AC/20, and every single other weapon in the game at 5.23 DPS - and that's with double-firing and jamming.

That said, be prepared for it to be nerfed next tuesday; its cooldown will be increased to match the AC/5's (up to 1.5s from 1.1s), according to a tweet from Russ.

Edited by stjobe, 13 September 2013 - 04:20 AM.

[VXJaeger]

stjobe, on 13 September 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

That said, be prepared for it to be nerfed next tuesday; its cooldown will be increased to match the AC/5's (up to 1.5s from 1.1s), according to a tweet from Russ.

Russ should get atomic wedgie for trying to balance things that were never meaned to be balanced.

[stjobe]

VXJaeger, on 13 September 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

Russ should get atomic wedgie for trying to balance things that were never meaned to be balanced.

You don't think the highest-DPS weapon in the game could use a little tweak downwards?

AC/5: 3.33 DPS
AC/20: 5 DPS
UAC/5: 4.55 DPS single-fire, 5.23 DPS double-fire

[Elyam]

I agree with tuning it down a bit. The ultra is largely a player style issue. I won't use it since I do not want to spend any of my wits paying attention to it's quirks and timing. I prefer concentrating on maneuver and precise shots and use choice.

[VXJaeger]

stjobe, on 13 September 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

You don't think the highest-DPS weapon in the game could use a little tweak downwards?

AC/5: 3.33 DPS
AC/20: 5 DPS
UAC/5: 4.55 DPS single-fire, 5.23 DPS double-fire

I think that PGI should pull the plug from developing this game, because all weapons are one by one nerfed to shitness and any edges will not be found anywhere. All mediocre {Scrap} and that is good for those "GI players".
Last patch PPCs and gauss, now UACs, next heat scaling to AC5s etc and it never stops until everything is same beige & light gray BS.

Edited by VXJaeger, 13 September 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[B1zmark]

VXJaeger, on 13 September 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I think that PGI should pull the plug from developing this game, because all weapons are one by one nerfed to shitness and any edges will not be found anywhere. All mediocre {Scrap} and that is good for those "GI players".
Last patch PPCs and gauss, now UACs, next heat scaling to AC5s etc and it never stops until everything is same beige & light gray BS.

The primary issue is the net code. I've come from an FPS Background (CS 1.5, Q3, MOHAA, CoD1) - so being rewarded for a well placed shot is valued above 'spray and pray'. Now I come to this game and I'm met with this situation:

Me, YLW, XL-300, AC20 - well place shot against spider with AC20 in the leg, another in the arm - big explosions on my screen. Damage done is negligable according to target data? I die to 3 of these guys drilling me with MG's and MPL after 30 seconds. and 4 solid hits on 2 of them apparently vanish into the ether.

Me, ILYA, XL-280, 3x UAC5 - Aim roughly at a spiders body, hold down the fire button and after 5-6 seconds a leg is destroyed and hes down to core on 3 body parts.

Which mech would you rather pilot?

Each weapon has very real qualities, but most of the time this is lost due to bad net code. The weapons that perform well under the lag-shield scenarios are the ones that are nerfed. If net code gets fixed, you'll see a lot of mediocre weapons start to shine and realise that the nerfs to other weapon groups where un-necesary.

Instead you get Phoenix mechs

[stjobe]

VXJaeger, on 13 September 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I think that PGI should pull the plug from developing this game, because all weapons are one by one nerfed to shitness and any edges will not be found anywhere. All mediocre {Scrap} and that is good for those "GI players".
Last patch PPCs and gauss, now UACs, next heat scaling to AC5s etc and it never stops until everything is same beige & light gray BS.

PPC change was a very good and most needed change, as was the Gauss one; the upcoming UAC change is just as good.

Remember, this is a PvP game; Player versus Player, not OP weapon versus UP weapon. The better they get the weapon balance, the more player skill enters into the equation, and the more interesting the game becomes.

And just to fend you off at the gate; no that doesn't mean make every weapon the same, it means balance every advantage with a disadvantage so that picking weapons become meaningful instead of just going with the currently OP weapon.

High-damage, pin-point weaponry should be balanced by slow fire rates, high weight, high heat, and/or ammo dependency. The less damage or accuracy a weapon has, the more those drawbacks can be eased up on.

The UAC/5 is currently the highest-DPS weapon in the game at a 5.23 DPS. It needs to be toned down, as anyone playing the game the last week or two can attest to - it's where everyone that did the dual PPC+GR went when that was toned down.

Edited by stjobe, 13 September 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Punk Oblivion]

I wonder if I was the one Wascot was watching? I was running 4 UAC5 on my Jager the last two days for fun before they get nerfed. Probally was not me, I am a decent shot with ballistics Anyways I guess I will address a few things being a ballistics user.

1) Macros. I occasionally use EvilC's Firectrl program. The thing with Macros is that some people can afford fancy keyboards and mice that have macros built into them. Which is "not cheating", but if I use a program to even things out then I am cheating? no way. The way MWO is, they should have the ability for everyone to customize each weapon groups chain fire rate in the UI (I am hoping they add this function in UI 2.0) Then no one has any advantage over anyone else.

2) UAC5's. As they are right now, I would use them. I like that I have the ability to almost always have a shot fire when I pull the trigger since the weapon has a very short cooldown. Sure there is a chance to jam, but it is a great weapon that has got me out of a lot more jams than screwed me BECAUSE of jams... Word play!

3) Nerfs? If the only Nerf to the UAC5 is raising the standard cooldown to 1.5, it is going to make things a LOT worse for everyone... Here is the thing with the UAC5's IMO, either you fire them at the 1.1 second rate to get the constant extra DPS, Or you fire them as fast as possible, because if you are going to jam the gun, it is dumb to jam it doing anything less then absolute maximum DPS. So raising the standard cooldown to 1.5 means either bring AC5's, or bring UAC5's for maximum burst damage.

By the way, after doing some testing, the full DPS of a non-jamming UAC5 at max fire is **12.5 DPS** (The UAC5 can re-fire at .4 seconds) So if you run 4 UAC5's on max fire macros, you do 50 DPS until the guns start jamming, There have been a few instances in last two days where they DIDN'T jam for a good 3 seconds...

[Dan Nashe]

Even with a jam, it does like 5.23 dps doublr firing. (It does 9 dps until it jams). The math is in a thread in the appropriate section.
So the macro is a dps loss.
Also, it's pretty easy to fire every 1.2 seconds with no macro. 1.25 seconds gives 4.00 dps, whichc is still a lot more than thae ac 5.

But yes, right now it's still 50 percent more dps than the regular ac 5 even f you always double fire and do nothing productive when jammed.

[Mordegar]

The problem that i see with the UAC5 is that it comes without a real penalty in mind compared to the other 600+ meter range ballistics like the insane heat buildups of the AC2 or the low hitpoints and charge mechanic of the Gauss. A jam with 2 UAC5 guns will rarely affect you even in brawls, cause you will have 1 of them almost always firing while the other unjams, dealing enough constant damage and cockpit shake to your target.
The UAC5 is the current *jack of all trades* ballistic weapon of MWO.

[Marmon Rzohr]

Ofc it's worth it. UAC5s are 1 ton heavier. For that you get a shorter cooldown AND the ability to fire more than twice as fast. Yes, jamming will hurt, but the extra DPS and more importantly, the burst of DPS UACs can deliver make them a superior choice in every situation. The UAC5 is an AC5 - Turbo. More weight for a clearly better version of the weapon.
(not to mention that you can fire UAC5s at the same rate as the AC5s with no chance of jamming)

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 14 September 2013 - 09:26 AM.

[BOWMANGR]

VXJaeger, on 13 September 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

I think that PGI should pull the plug from developing this game, because all weapons are one by one nerfed to shitness and any edges will not be found anywhere. All mediocre {Scrap} and that is good for those "GI players".
Last patch PPCs and gauss, now UACs, next heat scaling to AC5s etc and it never stops until everything is same beige & light gray BS.

Wow, couldn't disagree more. So for a game to be fun, there should be 20 weapons in a game, 3 of them should be overpowered in order to be fun, and all others are for newbies and troll builds. That's your vision for the game? To play with the OP weapons? This is the only way to have fun? Exploitation?

I surely hope that PGI tries to make ALL weapons a viable choice and if that means destroying some OP builds and wrecking the 'fun' of those players who exploit them then by all means do it, I really REALLY don't care if they don't have fun anymore.

I want balance and multiple choices, not a broken game where those 'in the know' use the OP weapons to stomp newbies who try to use all the other non-OP weapons.

I liked it when they finally nerfed the PPC, it was ridiculous before the nerf. I found the Gauss idea, giving it a specific role, a nice touch and now the UAC5 much needed change is also coming. ALL those changes were needed. We have a game with so many weapons, having 2-3 of them being WAY OP because it's 'fun' is a thing that PGI should continuously try to eliminate as fast as a weapon becomes a a 'weapon of choice' for everyone.