22 replies to this topic

[CrashieJ]

I decided to do a bit of research within my clan mates who still play this game about which type of heatsinks they use (20 people were asked)

19 people play their mechs with Double Heatsinks
1 plays their mech (Atlas K) with single Heatsinks

yeah, I would say that SHS at their current form is OBSOLETE, even with their "wet feet" bonus (I don't even know what the bonus IS)

SHS should be buffed to keep on par with DHS, either by increasing threshold or giving a different sort of bonus with the Heatsinks going out before a weapon in an event of a hit (sort of like a "shield").
---

oh and that math where DHS is 2.0 in the Engine, 1.6 in the engine's compartments, and 1.4 everywhere else is lazy, and hurtful.

1.5 or 1.6 DHS for the whole shabang.

problem solved

[MadPanda]

DHS is an upgrade. That's why it costs 1.5 million. Why on earth would they need to be 'equal'?

[Archio]

Exactly, I dont understand why they should be on the same footing.

[Sheraf]

gavilatius, on 14 September 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

I decided to do a bit of research within my clan mates who still play this game about which type of heatsinks they use (20 people were asked)

19 people play their mechs with Double Heatsinks
1 plays their mech (Atlas K) with single Heatsinks

yeah, I would say that SHS at their current form is OBSOLETE, even with their "wet feet" bonus (I don't even know what the bonus IS)

SHS should be buffed to keep on par with DHS, either by increasing threshold or giving a different sort of bonus with the Heatsinks going out before a weapon in an event of a hit (sort of like a "shield").
---

oh and that math where DHS is 2.0 in the Engine, 1.6 in the engine's compartments, and 1.4 everywhere else is lazy, and hurtful.

1.5 or 1.6 DHS for the whole shabang.

problem solved

DHS is an upgrade, why should SHS is better?

[Conan Librarian]

SHS make all trial/fresh bought 'Mechs suck really bad - making new players quit the game.

Edited by Groovy4life, 14 September 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[zagibu]

The tradeoff between SHS and DHS should be Tonnage vs. Slots. But look at this table displaying the situation for a 250 engine:

SHS	    DHS
HE T  S    HE    T   S
20 10 10   20    0   0
21 11 11   21.4  1   3
22 12 12   22.8  2   6
23 13 13   22.8  2   6
24 14 14   24.2  3   9
25 15 15   25.6  4  12
26 16 16   25.6  4  12
27 17 17   27    5  15
28 18 18   28.4  6  18
29 19 19   29.8  7  21
30 20 20   29.8  7  21
31 21 21   31.2  8  24

HE = Heat efficiency, T = Tonnage, S = Slots

Only at a total of 29 single heat sinks do the SHS start getting the slot advantage. This is because of the 10 free heatsinks you get in a 250 engine, which are doubled in the DHS situation, meaning with 0 external DHS you have the same heat household like a SHS user with 10 external heatsinks. What this means is that single heatsinks are only useful when you need the slots AND roll with engines below 250. Or when your arms and torsos don't have three slots free.

Edited by zagibu, 14 September 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[MadCat02]

I actually agree .

While double heatsinks should stay better ton for ton single heatsinks should also be viable . Perhaps they should weight 0.75

[ferranis]

Double Heat Sinks are and should be better, so why not give shs a quirk? I mean you suck heat wise if you take them, might as well make your mech a bit more durable for that ('shield' for components) or something completely different.

[Grrzoot]

i was going to say whaaaaaaat, but then i thought about it and other than a c-bill sink, there is really no reasons shs should be soo much behiond dhs. I do think a little buff is in order so you can at least play a loadout somewhat more conservative, but not completely devoid of usefullness if you have shs,

they dont need to be even that is for sure, but maybe some type of multiplier effect where if you have 10/15/20 etc shs you get a little buff, as it stand now, it makes mainly for horrible mechs.

[Wolfways]

Groovy4life, on 14 September 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

SHS make all trial/fresh bought 'Mechs suck really bad - making new players quit the game.

No, it's the heat system and DHS that are broken.

[AnnoyingCat]

This is why we can't have nice things

[FupDup]

I have yet to see a single argument that can convince me as to how making noobs play ~15-20 more matches to become viable is somehow good for gameplay in the long run.

[Tezcatli]

zagibu, on 14 September 2013 - 02:39 PM, said:

The tradeoff between SHS and DHS should be Tonnage vs. Slots. But look at this table displaying the situation for a 250 engine:

SHS		DHS
HE T  S	HE	T   S
20 10 10   20	0   0
21 11 11   21.4  1   3
22 12 12   22.8  2   6
23 13 13   22.8  2   6
24 14 14   24.2  3   9
25 15 15   25.6  4  12
26 16 16   25.6  4  12
27 17 17   27	5  15
28 18 18   28.4  6  18
29 19 19   29.8  7  21
30 20 20   29.8  7  21
31 21 21   31.2  8  24
 
HE = Heat efficiency, T = Tonnage, S = Slots

Only at a total of 29 single heat sinks do the SHS start getting the slot advantage. This is because of the 10 free heatsinks you get in a 250 engine, which are doubled in the DHS situation, meaning with 0 external DHS you have the same heat household like a SHS user with 10 external heatsinks. What this means is that single heatsinks are only useful when you need the slots AND roll with engines below 250. Or when your arms and torsos don't have three slots free.

So then it takes 29 tons to take advantage of smaller slots. They should increase the efficiency at least enough to make taking advantage of the slots reasonably viable.

[Kaijin]

Back when the heat system was simply screwed up rather than really screwed up, there were some builds that benefited more from mounting SHS than DHS. Too, there was a time when DHS really were DHS, but because the heat system has always been screwed up, that was deemed overpowered by the devs. >.>

[Devils Advocate]

DHS made SHS obsolete in the original game. I'd love to see SHS be made more viable but that's asking for a lot considering how much work the rest of the game needs. Don't SHS still get some kind of bonus when they're in your legs and you're in water?

The thing really borking them right now is the engine DHS being true double heat sinks. It doesn't make any sense and clearly wasn't intended but seems to still be in place from the original botch when they first fixed the first implementation of DHS. If the engine DHS were 1.4 we'd have to rebalance energy weapons again so I'm not exactly on board with them screwing around with the whole system again to make SHS more viable but if they ever did make them 1.4 it'd at least make SHS significantly less horrible. And would also reduce the advantage of using a bigger engine instead of adding more heat sinks.

[Tezcatli]

Devils Advocate, on 14 September 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

DHS made SHS obsolete in the original game. I'd love to see SHS be made more viable but that's asking for a lot considering how much work the rest of the game needs. Don't SHS still get some kind of bonus when they're in your legs and you're in water?

The thing really borking them right now is the engine DHS being true double heat sinks. It doesn't make any sense and clearly wasn't intended but seems to still be in place from the original botch when they first fixed the first implementation of DHS. If the engine DHS were 1.4 we'd have to rebalance energy weapons again so I'm not exactly on board with them screwing around with the whole system again to make SHS more viable but if they ever did make them 1.4 it'd at least make SHS significantly less horrible. And would also reduce the advantage of using a bigger engine instead of adding more heat sinks.

So then wouldn't the easiest thing be increasing the internal singles?

[aniviron]

To the "It's an upgrade" crowd:

Artemis, Endo, Ferro, and XL Engines are also upgrades, but while they do useful things, they are not better than their standard counterparts. They all have advantages and drawbacks that are not related to the price, like taking more weight, crit slots, or making the mech more vulnerable. For all of those upgrades, there are plenty of viable or better builds that don't have all or even any of them; that's because there is a choice to be made where you get something but it has a cost. Single heatsinks, however, are viable on about three builds out of the millions of possible permutations. There is absolutely no reason not to take double heatsinks; any mech that doesn't is going to perform severely worse for it.

And that's part of what makes this game cool. In theory, every single weapon and equipment system is viable; they all have advantages and drawbacks. Even the newer tech has drawbacks; see lasers vs pulse lasers, or PPC vs ER PPC. I don't see why everything else is a choice but DHS are mandatory.

[Kaijin]

aniviron, on 14 September 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

I don't see why everything else is a choice but DHS are mandatory.

DHS are only mandatory because the MWO heat system is screwy. There was a time in this game's development when there was an advantage to carrying SHS instead.

[Kaspirikay]

Hey guys, how about SHS get affected by the environment way more than DHS?

So if you drop in a cold place, SHS will cool you off more than a DHS, and if you drop in a hot place, it'll cool you less than a DHS would but not by a lot.

If you stand in water, you get cooled off really quick when equipped with SHS.

Basically, DHS for constant cooling amount, SHS for risky cooling amount.

[Wolfways]

SHS (and many other problems) would be fixed if PGI fixed the crappy heat system.

Remove ghost heat, and change heat generation so that the amount of heat generated is reduced by the same percentage that the weapons fire rate is increased.

Edited by Wolfways, 14 September 2013 - 09:52 PM.