26 replies to this topic

[CrashieJ]

Convergence in Mechwarrior is a "gimme" where weapons shooting from 800 meters can instantly pinpoint 2 AC20s on the next target "point blank" within milliseconds.

in a Singleplayer game, it's a way to give players a bit of breathing room.

in an Online game, it's a gateway to abuse the system.

SOLUTION: not so instant convergence
---

the Jagermech is probably the best example of what I'm trying to talk about, engaging targets at 200 meters is a breeze, but when a faster mech gets in your face, you can see weapons missing completely and "criss-crossing" behind your target.

yeah, that's actually a great mechanic, LETS MODIFY IT.

---
if you're spinning around trying to spread damage out... you can still shoot, but your shots will probably not hit anything over 300 meters. If you do hit something, it will hit an arm, or a leg, or if you're lucky... it may hit the thing your aiming at.

but if you take your time, track that target, and then fire... BLAM, CONVERGENCE!
---
in summary, by adding a mechanic that gives convergence a time based on both target distance and other factors ALREADY IN GAME, adds a layer of Risk-and-Reward (that little thing that makes the awesome games awesome to play). Consistent Aiming is actually being rewarded MORE than "snap shots".

should I target that Atlas in front of me or re-converge my weapons to fight that Catapult a little ways out?

Aiming is a tactic, tactics win battles, winning battles is a strategy, and using strategies wins wars.
---

Also, what happened to chassis "stats"? I see some remnants around like on the stalker's torso twist, but I don't know why they didn't either clear it out, or expand on it

[Scav3ng3r]

gavilatius, on 14 September 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Convergence in Mechwarrior is a "gimme" where weapons shooting from 800 meters can instantly pinpoint 2 AC20s on the next target "point blank" within milliseconds.

in a Singleplayer game, it's a way to give players a bit of breathing room.

in an Online game, it's a gateway to abuse the system.

SOLUTION: not so instant convergence
---

the Jagermech is probably the best example of what I'm trying to talk about, engaging targets at 200 meters is a breeze, but when a faster mech gets in your face, you can see weapons missing completely and "criss-crossing" behind your target.

yeah, that's actually a great mechanic, LETS MODIFY IT.

---
if you're spinning around trying to spread damage out... you can still shoot, but your shots will probably not hit anything over 300 meters. If you do hit something, it will hit an arm, or a leg, or if you're lucky... it may hit the thing your aiming at.

but if you take your time, track that target, and then fire... BLAM, CONVERGENCE!
---
in summary, by adding a mechanic that gives convergence a time based on both target distance and other factors ALREADY IN GAME, adds a layer of Risk-and-Reward (that little thing that makes the awesome games awesome to play). Consistent Aiming is actually being rewarded MORE than "snap shots".

should I target that Atlas in front of me or re-converge my weapons to fight that Catapult a little ways out?

Aiming is a tactic, tactics win battles, winning battles is a strategy, and using strategies wins wars.
---

Also, what happened to chassis "stats"? I see some remnants around like on the stalker's torso twist, but I don't know why they didn't either clear it out, or expand on it

Yeah, it would be nice if it took longer for weapons to converge, especially if you are moving. You can even make it so walking backwards at full throttle, or walking forwards at half throttle, gives you a faster convergence time, then running full speed, or torso twisting around, or jump jetting. It also makes sense. Yeah, it would be a pain in the butt going from long distance to short, or short to long, but it will also make weapons like the LBX-10 more viable, and it would also cause you to compensate for the convergence, so you could still score a CT hit when changing ranges, you'd just have to over exagerate your angle when you first open fire, which is fine imo.

[Sheraf]

gavilatius, on 14 September 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Convergence in Mechwarrior is a "gimme" where weapons shooting from 800 meters can instantly pinpoint 2 AC20s on the next target "point blank" within milliseconds.

in a Singleplayer game, it's a way to give players a bit of breathing room.

in an Online game, it's a gateway to abuse the system.

SOLUTION: not so instant convergence
---

the Jagermech is probably the best example of what I'm trying to talk about, engaging targets at 200 meters is a breeze, but when a faster mech gets in your face, you can see weapons missing completely and "criss-crossing" behind your target.

yeah, that's actually a great mechanic, LETS MODIFY IT.

---
if you're spinning around trying to spread damage out... you can still shoot, but your shots will probably not hit anything over 300 meters. If you do hit something, it will hit an arm, or a leg, or if you're lucky... it may hit the thing your aiming at.

but if you take your time, track that target, and then fire... BLAM, CONVERGENCE!
---
in summary, by adding a mechanic that gives convergence a time based on both target distance and other factors ALREADY IN GAME, adds a layer of Risk-and-Reward (that little thing that makes the awesome games awesome to play). Consistent Aiming is actually being rewarded MORE than "snap shots".

should I target that Atlas in front of me or re-converge my weapons to fight that Catapult a little ways out?

Aiming is a tactic, tactics win battles, winning battles is a strategy, and using strategies wins wars.
---

Also, what happened to chassis "stats"? I see some remnants around like on the stalker's torso twist, but I don't know why they didn't either clear it out, or expand on it

Don't have to worry much about 2x AC20 at 800m pin point, just kill the enemy and move on to next target.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Here is some light reading about how good CURRENT technology is at automatically aiming a cannon at a target, up to 8000m away. I somehow think that by 3050 they would be able to do this technology one better especially since they only have to hit targets out to 1000m or so maximum.


http://defense.about...s-M1-Tank_2.htm

An on board fire control computer coupled with laser rangefinder computes angle and velocity of the shell to ensure an accurate hit on the target. The tank is accurate targeting to 8,000 meters with an error of less than 35 meters. Turrent stabilization system allows for firing while moving over even rough terrain.

http://www.fprado.co...site/abrams.htm
http://www.army-tech...rojects/abrams/

The Abrams also has an onboard digital fire control computer. Range data from the laser rangefinder is transferred directly to the fire control computer, which automatically calculates the fire control solution. The data includes 1) the lead angle measurement, 2) the bend of the gun measured by the muzzle reference system of the main armament, 3) wind velocity measurement from a wind sensor on the roof of the turret and 4) the data from a pendulum static cant sensor located at the center of the turret roof.

http://www.calguns.n...ad.php?t=302066

When the gunner (or commander) engages a target, he will place the reticle on the target and then lase the target. This laser will give the ballistics computer a range to target. The computer will then take the range data plus such variables such as cross wind, barometric pressure, outside air temperature, ammunition tempurature, vehicle cant, and gun turret slew speed (which is a measure of how fast the target vehicle is moving in relationship to the tank), and come up with a ballistic solution. The cannon will then move inducing lead and hold over based on the ballistic solution. The gunner then has only to make sure the reticle is still on the target and fire. The ballistic computer also will correct for such things as barrel wear, and measured ammunition lot variances. As mentioned, a Muzzle Reference Sensor (MRS) will measure for any warp in the gun tube due to unequal heating of the tube and this information is fed to the ballistic computer periodically.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 14 September 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[CrashieJ]

Viktor Drake, on 14 September 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

M1 Abrams stuff

yeah but this is CURRENT technology, BattleTechnology is basically 80's Technology in a Scifi setting (that means 100 times larger and with 50% more blinking lights).

Command Console? C3 Computer? these are things that are used in CBT to add accuracy, but here in MWO... it's just non-existent or collecting dust

[Scav3ng3r]

Yup, and if the Inner Sphere still wasn't recovering all it's lost technologies from over 220 years of blowing all it's technology up, I'd completely agree with you Viktor Drake.

There are still some planets within the IS that WISH they had our current real life level tech in the BattleTech universe thanks to those 228 years of war. You have to understand, Mankind almost destroyed itself, and all that was left over were these hulking beats, and enough tech to keep them going until the Helm Memory Core was discovered, and since then the IS started to slowly rebuild all it's LosTech, which it still is rebuilding during this time line.

[Truesight]

You guys seem to forget, that sometimes you have to lead your target to hit it. Now if you couple convergence with that lock on (Hello ECM, Hello Cover), and it takes some time, you could actually get an interesting mechanic.

[hashinshin]

Weapons that use modern day technology in the year 3050? Arcadey!

Weapons that use 1940s technology in the year 3050? What a simulator!

[Jestun]

hashinshin, on 14 September 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Weapons that use modern day technology in the year 3050? Arcadey!

Weapons that use 1940s technology in the year 3050? What a simulator!

What it's simulating it is a very dated view of a sci-fi universe. Lacking many technologies we have today because they didn't have then when the lore was created and they didn't think of them. So there's a nugget of truth in your post.

But lets face it... we have arm lock & throttle decay to simplify, 3PV to allow looking over / around cover and they are currently working on the planned respawn mechanic. Simulation is not the way they are going.

Edited by Jestun, 14 September 2013 - 11:19 PM.

[DocBach]

Overview:

The largest problem in this game stems from the fact that PGI has kept certain traits and rules from the board game such as the separate location damage models, then added the ability to group several weapons together and shoot them all at one location. These damage models were balanced for a board game in which weapons hit completely random locations; now that where they go can easily be selected we have created an environment that rewards boating the biggest alpha strike as possible as they are superior in nearly every way to other weapon systems.

To fix it PGI needs to make a decision; is this going to be a simulation of the board game, or a first person shooter skinned with the lore?

If the former, they need to relook how they allow alpha strikes to work. If you fire a single weapon you should have accuracy. If you want to fire off all your guns at once, don't expect the bullets to all fly through the same little hole without some work.

Homeless Bill's system was a good idea, but it was incredibly complicated and over complex when the system has been in the book already the whole time; El Bandito referenced the novels for the feel and I think that a combination of the actual rules and the fluff material would make the convergence issue much better. It would require changing the reticule's behavior somewhat depending on combat conditions.

A New Reticle For Group Fired Weapons:

The original reticle would be retained for the purposes of providing the player an aiming reference point for single fired weapons. An additional expanding and contracting reticle would be added around the existing reticle to serve as a group firing reticle. Instead of having the center of the reticule be the point of convergence for grouped weapons, each location of the 'Mech will have its own focus point to where weapons fired from that location would be converged to:






(thank you Unbound Inferno for creating the original reticle graphic)

The player would still have a reference on where his shot would go, because the various stadia line on the reticle would remain the same.

A Reactive Reticle That Adjusts to Combat Conditions:


To achieve a group to pinpoint precision, the firing 'Mech would have to target a 'Mech and then hold its reticle over the 'Mech for a time determined by combat factors such as heat, target movement speed, and range; if the target 'Mech breaks line of sight and the target information is lost, or the reticle is removed from the vicinity of the target, convergence begins to deconverge, much like missile locks currently do.

Pulse lasers would have quicker convergence than ballistic weapons and could continue to converge as the shooter fires them; this accuracy bonus would help differentiate them from other weapons and give them a slight advantage as lasers are a high skill weapon, but have the potential to spread their damage as they are damage over time.

C3 could be added as equipment, as its function in the board game was to allow 'Mechs on a network to use other 'Mechs in the network's targeting data to reduce the penalty of firing at longer ranges; this could be added to this system as well, so having a spotter at close range with C3 could allow a 'Mech at longer ranges to gain tighter convergence. This would allow snipers to still be accurate, if a team mate acts as a spotter, making coordination and team play more of a factor for long range direct fire support, much like LRM fire requires a spotter currently. C3's functionality would be negated by ECM.

This system would require the player to obtain a lock on the enemy by hitting R. Convergence for group fire would not occur until the player selects a target and holds the reticle over the enemy; the reticle would visibly constrict over the target, giving the player clear reference where the various locations weapons would hit if fired at the target. This would require a work around for how ECM currently works; perhaps ECM protected 'Mechs would still be non-targetable by the R key, but if the open a player could manually target them by placing their reticule over an enemy in visual line of sight.

Factors Affecting The Speed of Convergence:

The rate in which the lock constricts would be governed by several things:

- Player's Heat Level - the hotter the 'Mech is, the slower convergence would be applied, giving a real downside to running hot.

- Target 'Mechs movement speed: the faster the enemy is moving, the harder it is to hit. This speed is based on the actual movement speed of the 'Mech, not the rate of the throttle so a 'Mech moving 54kph would be easier to converge your weapons on than a 'Mech moving 90 kph. A 'Mech running 120+ would take a bit of tracking with the reticle to gain pinpoint convergence. This would help the survivability of faster 'Mechs, especially medium 'Mechs who are especially vulnerable in the current meta

- Pilot Tree Skills - give Pinpoint something to do, dammit

- Damage to Actuators - critical hits to actuators in the arm would slow convergence

- Pulse lasers - to represent the accuracy bonus pulse lasers have in the source material, pulse lasers would enjoy a quicker convergence speed than other weapon systems.


Modifiers to Convergence Speed:

The base modifier for convergence speed is based on the level of experience tier;


Basic Qualified 'Mechs have a 4 second to maximum convergence base time
Elite Qualified (Pinpoint Skill) have a 3 second to maximum convergence base time
Master Qualified have a 2 second to maximum convergence base modifier


Long Range adds 4 to the modifier
Medium Range adds 2 to the modifier
Minimum Range adds 1 to the modifier for each 30 meters of minimum range, ie a weapon with a minimum range of 90 would have a 2 modifier or being 30-60m

Firing at a 'Mech that is stationary to 10kph subtracts 4 from the modifier
'Mechs moving 10-20kph have no modifier
'Mechs moving 20-50kph have a +1 modifier
'Mechs moving 50-70kph have a +2 modifier
'Mechs moving 70-90kph have a +3 modifier
'Mechs moving 90-120kph have a +4 modifier
'Mechs moving > 120kph have a +5 modifier

Heat Level at 20% adds a 1 modifier
Heat Level at 40% adds a 2 modifier
Heat Level at 60% adds a 3 modifier
Heat Level at 80% adds a 4 modifier

Pulse Lasers Subtract 2 from the modifier

C3 would allows a spotter to remove the range modifier, 'Mechs in the C3 network would use the range modifier for the 'Mech in the closest range of the target.

Clan Targeting Computers provide a -2 second modifier to convergence time.

The time to gain maximum convergence is this formula

Base Skill Time + Modifier/3= amount of seconds required to gain complete convergence

So an Elite Tier Stalker that is stationary at long range decides to try to use group fire to attack a Centurion 9D moving 108kph at 30% heat. To gain maximum convergence it would take

3 seconds Elite base time to maximum convergence + 4 for long range + 3 for target movement speed + 1 for heat/3 = 5.6 seconds to gain maximum convergence.

The Centurion is moving at full throttle so convergence of attacks against it are much slower; he is returning fire at the stationary Stalker.

3 + 4 for range - 4 for firing on a stationary target = 3 seconds to absolute convergence.

This means that firing a group of weapons against a 'moving 'Mech takes much longer to converge weapons to pinpoint precision like we have now; an alternative would be to firing in chain fire mode if accuracy at long range is desired, without necessitating the firing 'Mech expose themselves for long periods of time.



What It Could Look Like:



This picture is a mock up of what the convergence would look like - he is moving and though he is at close range for his weapons, his high heat level slowed the convergence spreed of his groups down but he chose to fire a group of weapons anyways - see how the damage would be spread over the enemy 'Mech? Nearly every other shooter has similar systems of expanding reticules to display inaccuracy caused by running, ect so new players familiar with shooter games should have no problem adapting to it, especially as it is not a randomized cone; the reticule has the points of aim for the locations with the stadia lines of the crosshairs.

Group fired snap shots or shots fired at non-targeted enemies would be fired at an accuracy penalty as the targeting computer did not have time to converge properly. However the reticle would still provide the pilot with an idea where his shots will go, and since shooting errors are angular in nature the effective of shooting a group with the larger, unconverged reticle at short ranges would be much less severe then attempting to shoot at an unconverged target far away, and the player always has an option for single fired weapons, which are not affected by convergence and have a separate, constant aiming point.



In this picture we see where left/right torso point of impacts will be, even if the reticle converges fully. Even with full convergence achieved, there is some deviation between the points of impacts of weapons in opposite torso locations.

The new system would force the player to have to choose - if he wants precision when firing a group of weapons he either has to offer himself up as a stationary target which would allow the enemy's computer quicker convergence on him, or fire a single weapon rather than a large alpha strike. If he wants to put out brutal force, he can fire a group, but the damage would be spread over the 'Mech.

This new system would not be a random cone of fire; the player has very distinct points of aim at all times for his weapon systems, and is in control of managing his speed and heat to achieve maximum potential for firing weapon groups, but in general should mitigate the trends we have been seeing where 'Mechs are being cored completely to the center torso by large, long range alpha strikes -- sometimes in a single volley.

TL;DR

Add a reticle for grouped weapons fire that converges like a missile lock; the the different stadia (crosshair) lines on the reticle would be the points of convergence for different locations. The speed on which the reticle converges is based on combat conditions such as heat level or target speed. Chain fire would be unaffected, group fire before convergence lock is gained still does damage to a target, just not concentrated to a single location. Pinpoint convergence is still possible if you hold your sights on a target long enough and don't break the lock either by moving your crosshairs off the target (ie torso twisting, engaging a new target, the target breaking line of sight, ect).

Edited by DocBach, 15 September 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

It's official Doc, you are a m a s o c h i s t. Why is that word bleeped?

They will not be adding non-instant convergence. They cannot do it. They are not good enough programmers to do it.

Paul said it in an ATD.

This game is launching in two-ish days with two modes, less than 10 maps and a smattering of mechs that all essentially fulfill the same roles because of the lax hardpoint system.

Their concept of balancing is adding hard to explain mechanics which do not address the issue that using the same weapons is the best way to go, thus doing away with the original intent of Mechwarrior/Battletech (with some exceptions).

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 September 2013 - 11:33 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

No. You have a tanks game already.

Go play it and let me have my minimally viable fun.

[Kahoumono]

You are beating a dead cat, this was brought up ages ago when you could stack 6ppcs. Their answer to this is ghost heat. I doubt they are going to do anything more about convergence.

[RandomLurker]

I really like DocBach's ideas. But I don't think there's any hope of them being implemented. PGI just isn't interested in putting that much work into something they can't sell for MC.

So I'll Self plug a bit with a coutner proposal that's easier to do and accomplish most of the same things- a convergence fix with no RNG and no cones of fire. http://mwomercs.com/...-with-no-cones/

[TOGSolid]

Viktor Drake, on 14 September 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Here is some light reading about how good CURRENT technology is at automatically aiming a cannon at a target, up to 8000m away. I somehow think that by 3050 they would be able to do this technology one better especially since they only have to hit targets out to 1000m or so maximum.


http://defense.about...s-M1-Tank_2.htm

An on board fire control computer coupled with laser rangefinder computes angle and velocity of the shell to ensure an accurate hit on the target. The tank is accurate targeting to 8,000 meters with an error of less than 35 meters. Turrent stabilization system allows for firing while moving over even rough terrain.

http://www.fprado.co...site/abrams.htm
http://www.army-tech...rojects/abrams/

The Abrams also has an onboard digital fire control computer. Range data from the laser rangefinder is transferred directly to the fire control computer, which automatically calculates the fire control solution. The data includes 1) the lead angle measurement, 2) the bend of the gun measured by the muzzle reference system of the main armament, 3) wind velocity measurement from a wind sensor on the roof of the turret and 4) the data from a pendulum static cant sensor located at the center of the turret roof.

http://www.calguns.n...ad.php?t=302066

When the gunner (or commander) engages a target, he will place the reticle on the target and then lase the target. This laser will give the ballistics computer a range to target. The computer will then take the range data plus such variables such as cross wind, barometric pressure, outside air temperature, ammunition tempurature, vehicle cant, and gun turret slew speed (which is a measure of how fast the target vehicle is moving in relationship to the tank), and come up with a ballistic solution. The cannon will then move inducing lead and hold over based on the ballistic solution. The gunner then has only to make sure the reticle is still on the target and fire. The ballistic computer also will correct for such things as barrel wear, and measured ammunition lot variances. As mentioned, a Muzzle Reference Sensor (MRS) will measure for any warp in the gun tube due to unequal heating of the tube and this information is fed to the ballistic computer periodically.

Seriously? You're bringing up current world tech in a Battletech discussion?

You'd think people would have learned their lesson about this **** ages ago.

[Imperius]

If we throw enough walls if text, topic posts, and cave drawings at the devs they will sure listen, and the masses will follow *sarcasm*

NO aiming is fine as is.

[vv3k70r]

Convergence is not a issue for todays ams or telescope. Why it should be in 3050?

[RandomLurker]

vv3k70r, on 15 September 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

Convergence is not a issue for todays ams or telescope. Why it should be in 3050?

It's specifically stated in the source material that computer technology has been all but lost. It's part of the feudal-knight-in-shining-battlemech theme of the universe. Everything comes down to the pilot. This is 100% why ranges are limited to 1km in the first place.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Imperius, on 15 September 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

If we throw enough walls if text, topic posts, and cave drawings at the devs they will sure listen, and the masses will follow *sarcasm*

NO aiming is fine as is.

Aiming is not fine, if we didn't have instant convergence Ultra AC/5's wouldn't be a problem right now. Once they nerf them in the next patch (after they tricked a bunch of suckers to buy Ilya's and whatever the hell the Jaeger is), large lasers will be the go to boat weapon.

The problem is, we are encouraged by the system to use similar weapon types. It leads to obscenely boring gameplay.

It's point and click.

Instead of getting a target lock with LRM's and firing, then following up with a well aimed PPC shot as you close into to use your SRM's and medium lasers. Which requires you to reaim as you move through the weapon systems.

What we have now is point at spot, click once (or once then .5 seconds later again to circumvent ghost heat) rinse and repeat (unless you are using the broken Ultra AC/5's).

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 15 September 2013 - 01:04 PM.

[vv3k70r]

RandomLurker, on 15 September 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

It's specifically stated in the source material that computer technology has been all but lost...

Mechs have extreme powerfull servosystems (they walk). They have powerfull gyroscope (they dont fall). So the issue with high speed, powerfull, precise actuators dosent exist in this universe.

Oh... and this does not need computers.

Edited by vv3k70r, 15 September 2013 - 01:22 PM.