70 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Hythos, on 16 September 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

In lore, a Gauss Rifle is different. Game-play mechanics of L1 Battletech, it literally is an AC/15 with special functions & weapon detonation vs Ammo Explosion.
L2 rules allow for usage of different ammunition.
L3 rules allow for improvised munitions (jamming in a piece of steel to use as ammo), discharging capacitors, and the good 'ol melee-strike + fire with the gun-barrel burried into the chest of the target.

While the 'creative' parts wouldn't work without extensive programming, I'd really like to see the proper FASA-intended rules.

"This is a FPS game that needs to break the rules of Battletech Lore".
F--- that. Make it work. All we'll end up with, is a game that's leached the good parts of Battletch + Mechwarrior with a faint visage of what it was to its' entirety.

The issue is a Sniper rifle does not need a charge before it fires. The idea is counter intuitive for a weapon that needs split second reaction for accuracy. For a strictly long range weapon that is not the case. So is a Gauss a "Sniping weapon" or a long range gun?

[Odins Fist]

Killkie, on 15 September 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

First, before anyone accuses me of being a newb, I submit the following

Haven't seen you or played against you, but decent PUB score...
.
.
Try 12 mans ... Mixed bag of Pirates and Mercs 12 man versus Davion 12 man, it was a fun match


.
Pubbing is fun as well


and "YES", MWO is a (First Person Shooter)...

Edited by Odins Fist, 16 September 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Hythos]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 September 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

The issue is a Sniper rifle does not need a charge before it fires. The idea is counter intuitive for a weapon that needs split second reaction for accuracy. For a strictly long range weapon that is not the case. So is a Gauss a "Sniping weapon" or a long range gun?

Yep, I agree that Gauss weaponry shouldn't require a charge-time like they've implemented, which I implied - it should fire just like a ballistic (AC/15) under the current L1 rules.
However, once developers got ahold of LosTech blueprints, a Gauss Rifle was considered as a direct upgrade to the AC/20 without changing the role, but rather doubling the range for its 'main gun'. Other instances, the AC/20 was kept because the extra range wasn't needed (IE, Axman).

The idea of a Gauss Rifle being purely for sniping purposes, came from their misinterpretation of the description of the Hollander (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hollander) and transcribed that to the purpose of the weapon, not the 'Mech.

[Lightfoot]

MWO's mechs just don't work. I am sorry, but after playing all the Battletech related interactive games for the past 15 years I can tell you the MWO Mechs are just too weak for the weaponry they will be forced to face in a game related to MechWarrior and Battletech. The Gauss Rifle shouldn't have to be made unusable to 70% of players to cover-up for this.

I switch around looking for players with a Gauss Rifle and rarely find one, but when I do they never fire it while I am watching, sometimes they have never been able to fire it the entire match because they still have 30 rounds and don't fire the Gauss when it is their only weapon in range.

So the Gauss Rifle charge and discharge mechanic does not work for most players and especially new players who used to rely on the Gauss to be competitive.

MechWarrior relies on group-fire, MWO had to nerf that to two-fire.

This is the wrong direction to solve the problem of Mechs being destroyed too fast because you need to use the Battletech lore and tech for the game.

Inner Sphere weapons are weak anyway, Clan tech are the real damaging weapons. You can nerf them too, but you can't nerf them enough and still have any resemblance to classic MechWarrior content and lore. How would you nerf a Clan ER Medium Laser? You would need to make it into an Inner Sphere Medium Laser or it would likely be coring MWO mechs in a few seconds at 360-450 meters.

It would be the same with every Clan weapon. How would the Clans keep their lore qualities after each weapon is nerfed?

Back to the Gauss Rifle, the correct balancing for the Gauss is a longer recharge 5-6 seconds, since the AC20 is 4 seconds. This enables it's availability to all of MWO's players, not just a select few.

Good luck with the launch, and everyone have fun.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Lightfoot, on 16 September 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

MWO's mechs just don't work. I am sorry, but after playing all the Battletech related interactive games for the past 15 years I can tell you the MWO Mechs are just too weak for the weaponry they will be forced to face in a game related to MechWarrior and Battletech. The Gauss Rifle shouldn't have to be made unusable to 70% of players to cover-up for this.

I switch around looking for players with a Gauss Rifle and rarely find one, but when I do they never fire it while I am watching, sometimes they have never been able to fire it the entire match because they still have 30 rounds and don't fire the Gauss when it is their only weapon in range.

So the Gauss Rifle charge and discharge mechanic does not work for most players and especially new players who used to rely on the Gauss to be competitive.

MechWarrior relies on group-fire, MWO had to nerf that to two-fire.

This is the wrong direction to solve the problem of Mechs being destroyed too fast because you need to use the Battletech lore and tech for the game.

Inner Sphere weapons are weak anyway, Clan tech are the real damaging weapons. You can nerf them too, but you can't nerf them enough and still have any resemblance to classic MechWarrior content and lore. How would you nerf a Clan ER Medium Laser? You would need to make it into an Inner Sphere Medium Laser or it would likely be coring MWO mechs in a few seconds at 360-450 meters.

It would be the same with every Clan weapon. How would the Clans keep their lore qualities after each weapon is nerfed?

Back to the Gauss Rifle, the correct balancing for the Gauss is a longer recharge 5-6 seconds, since the AC20 is 4 seconds. This enables it's availability to all of MWO's players, not just a select few.

Good luck with the launch, and everyone have fun.

Gauss rifle works fine, it is fulfilling it's role as a primarily sniper based weapon. If people would just work on their timing it'd be used more often, also I have to disagree I see gauss, and I see it used well in my games. I myself use gauss, and I can consistently get, on my worst games, at least 2 kills and 400-500 damage, some of my better games I'm getting 3 kills and 600-800 damage. If your in disbelief that I can actually used the Gauss decently, I can most certainly show you a few videos as proof. Gauss is a monstrous weapon learned to be used correctly, people need to just have patience with it.

Also I have a feeling clan tech will be segregated into a separate queue, along with IS being their own queue, so I doubt there will be huge nerfs to clan tech. The correct balance to gauss is already here, though they could do well to replace the ammo explosion with a minimum range, but aside from that, the weapon is pretty close to properly balanced, just a bit too strong imo.

[Hythos]

PalmaRoma, on 16 September 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Gauss rifle works fine, it is fulfilling it's role as a primarily sniper based weapon.

The rest is irrelevant because you said "sniper based weapon", and that, the Gauss Rifle is not.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Hythos, on 16 September 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

The rest is irrelevant because you said "sniper based weapon", and that, the Gauss Rifle is not.

Yes it is, it is a weapon that excels at long range, as in, you will perform way better at 900-650 than anything lower.

[Lightfoot]

Hythos, on 16 September 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

The rest is irrelevant because you said "sniper based weapon", and that, the Gauss Rifle is not.

QFT

PalmaRoma, on 16 September 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Yes it is, it is a weapon that excels at long range, as in, you will perform way better at 900-650 than anything lower.

Gauss is just a long range weapon. It has no Sniper Scope and it does less damage/tonnage than any other Ballistic weapon. Sniper weapons do more damage than any other single shot weapon. By the standards you and others claim the UAC-5 and AC-5 are also Sniper weapons since they have the same range, and do more DPS damage per payload ton than the Gauss. So they are super-sniper weapons, like sniper weapons with automatic firing, and shouldn't work at all except on tuesday, when the moon is full and the game is being patched, the new nerf.

That's a good analogy really because the UAC-5 and AC5 used in pairs and threes have always been out there doing double-gauss damage, they just don't make a distinctive sound or kill abruptly, but they kill twice as fast. I guess no one checked the actual DPS data?

Edited by Lightfoot, 16 September 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Lightfoot, on 16 September 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

QFT



Gauss is just a long range weapon. It has no Sniper Scope and it does less damage/tonnage than any other Ballistic weapon. Sniper weapons do more damage than any other single shot weapon. By the standards you and others claim the UAC-5 and AC-5 are also Sniper weapons since they have the same range, and do more DPS damage per payload ton than the Gauss. So they are super-sniper weapons, like sniper weapons with automatic firing, and shouldn't work at all except on tuesday, when the moon is full and the game is being patched, the new nerf.

That's a good analogy really because the UAC-5 and AC5 used in pairs and threes have always been out there doing double-gauss damage, they just don't make a distinctive sound or kill abruptly, but they kill twice as fast. I guess no one checked the actual DPS data?

No, the Gauss has the quick projectile speed to back up its huge range. On top of that it does 15 damage to a single component and has an additional 60 range. Compare it to a UAC5, yes it has faster dps, but each shot is far slower, does only 5 damage per hit and has a good chance of jamming if your intending to use it as a"super sniping weapon" it does alot of dps, but hitting the same component consistently at 600 plus range is quite difficult, and assuming the enemy is going to stand there and let you hit the same area over and over is ludicrous, the gauss has the advantage of striking harder and faster, and after you take your shot, you can slink back into cover (like an actual sniper) and fire form another unexpected location.

This same thing applies to AC5, it's projectile is slow, and requires significantly more leading for each shot, again compared to a gauss which just needs one just with slight leading depending on range, where as if you wanted to do the same amount of damage to the targeted component, you'd have to stand for a prolong period of time in the open and somehow hit the same area three times, all the while your enemy will torso twist and by the time you landed a second shot he'll probably have been in cover by then. These weapons are not the essence of a sniper weapon to be honest. this is why the gauss is a clear sniper weapon and the autocannon 5 family is not. Yeah you can mount 3 of them, but getting that second salvo to hit the same component, I'd like to see somebody do that on a consistent basis at a range of 900, let alone a range of 600. This is assumign they can even land all of their ac shots at a 600 range on a consistent basis.

Aside from all of that, the UAC5 will be getting a nerf tomorrow in terms of jamming I believe, making them even less likely to get more than half the damage done by a dual gauss combo, let alone being able to hit the same component with it at 900-600 range.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 16 September 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[Hythos]

PalmaRoma, on 16 September 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Words

Wrong. The Gauss Rifle deals flat damage with its difference being the propulsion mechanism.
A 'sniper weapon' in practically at FPS would allow for a difference in damage - IE critical damage to vital areas, head, and deal either a multiplier in damage, or apply specific state-effects.

The Gauss Rifle deals flat damage just like any other AC in Battletech L1 rules (INCLUDING the LB/10X solid-shot.) Additionally, what Sniper Rifle/ weapon allows someone to fire fletchet munition? Doesn't make sense to fire bird-shot from a .50, does it?
While the http://www.sarna.net...let_Gauss_Rifle was designed from the exact same weapon (notice the range) the barrel was designed to fit a different cartridge (aside of simple details, read the game notes. While the SBGR references the LB-X, the relationship between a Gauss and AC is also true).

[Core2029]

Waking One, on 15 September 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

one decent game in a jager doesn't mean you're particularly good

more weapon variety is good

your wall of text is pointless, it works fine

also lol at wanting refunds for hero mechs due to nerfs

I swear you just wander the forums all day with posts just like this. I could replace you with a 10 line script.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Hythos, on 16 September 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Wrong. The Gauss Rifle deals flat damage with its difference being the propulsion mechanism.
A 'sniper weapon' in practically at FPS would allow for a difference in damage - IE critical damage to vital areas, head, and deal either a multiplier in damage, or apply specific state-effects.

The Gauss Rifle deals flat damage just like any other AC in Battletech L1 rules (INCLUDING the LB/10X solid-shot.) Additionally, what Sniper Rifle/ weapon allows someone to fire fletchet munition? Doesn't make sense to fire bird-shot from a .50, does it?
While the http://www.sarna.net...let_Gauss_Rifle was designed from the exact same weapon (notice the range) the barrel was designed to fit a different cartridge (aside of simple details, read the game notes. While the SBGR references the LB-X, the relationship between a Gauss and AC is also true).

Yes it deals flat damage, because its mechwarrior online, not Call of Duty, not Battlefield 3 or any other generic fps. This is mechwarrior. PGI decided not to go the route of yet another game that will be dominated by those with twitch aiming ability, they decided the game will instead have require tactics and strategy first, while having timing, and a steady aim be the important skills that are also a deciding factor for success in game. Does that mean the Gauss rifle is not a sniper weapon? Nope. Just means twitch aiming isn't going to give you those one shots. Though, the gauss rifle is probably the most reliable long range weapon in game to core cockpits with, being that it's projectile is both the most damaging and the quickest and has one of the best ranges in game.

A sniper weapon doesn't have to do extra damage to vital areas, it has to be a long range weapon that excels at long range to be qualified, just cause mechwarrior went the route of encouraging things other than twitch aiming doesn't mean the gauss is automatically not a sniper weapon, because you can still core a cockpit with steady aim at long range. That is what a sniper is, a skilled marksmen firing a primarily long range weapon from afar, and your saying a long range weapon that is most suited for coring cockpits out of any other weapon is not a sniper weapon? What? Since when did a weapon need to deal critical damage to the head to be a sniper weapon? Are games that allow critical damage headhosts with normal weapons mean that all these weapons are sniper weapons now?

Edited by PalmaRoma, 16 September 2013 - 06:18 PM.

[Core2029]

PalmaRoma, on 15 September 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

The PPC is like less than half the tonnage than gauss and generates alot more heat, the gauss on the other hand, generates none at all, its projectile is much faster, and it does 5 more damage than ppcs, both weapons are in a decent place now. The charge mechanic is honestly, a very light nerf, and the buffs far outweigh the nerf, it is actually pretty easy to use the gauss once you get used to the new mechanic.

The gauss didn't need a speed increase. That was an extended olive branch due to the severity of the nerf. I've made no bones about hating the change to that weapon mechanic. Regardless of it being "pretty easy" to use now it's still radically and needlessly different from how all other weapons function, including the removal of the ability to naturally chain fire it - (which only I seem to care about).

[ColourfulConfetti]

Core2029, on 16 September 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

The gauss didn't need a speed increase. That was an extended olive branch due to the severity of the nerf. I've made no bones about hating the change to that weapon mechanic. Regardless of it being "pretty easy" to use now it's still radically and needlessly different from how all other weapons function, including the removal of the ability to naturally chain fire it - (which only I seem to care about).

Didn't they mention somewhere that they did the speed buff to make it more like a sniper rifle? Wether the whole thing was to intentionally build it like a sniper rifle or not, I think the change does seal it as a more sniper-like weapon. I do think it needs a minimum range though, I think it is still to strong when you brawl with it. Though I'm otherwise content with how it works, I mean, 15 instant damage, no heat and insane projectile speed make it a scary weapon, and I'm telling you the charge time is really barely even a hindrance once you get some practice with it. As I said I personally feel it is too strong as is, cause you can get some insane results once you actually get acquainted to the timing. I've been seeing myself landing more cockpit shots actually once I gotten to the proper range. It will flat out beat any other sniper weapon at proper range (vs ppcs you should be at about 900 m) and you can brawl with it reliably alongside other weapons, you just need to practice with the process. I like to think of the gauss as having a hard-ish learning curve but high reward factor.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 16 September 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[Core2029]

PalmaRoma, on 16 September 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

Didn't they mention somewhere that they did the speed buff to make it more like a sniper rifle? Wether the whole thing was to intentionally build it like a sniper rifle or not, I think the change does seal it as a more sniper-like weapon. I do think it needs a minimum range though, I think it is still to strong when you brawl with it. Though I'm otherwise content with how it works, I mean, 15 instant damage, no heat and insane projectile speed make it a scary weapon, and I'm telling you the charge time is really barely even a hindrance once you get some practice with it. As I said I personally feel it is too strong as is, cause you can get some insane results once you actually get acquainted to the timing. I've been seeing myself landing more cockpit shots actually once I gotten to the proper range. It will flat out beat any other sniper weapon at proper range (vs ppcs you should be at about 900 m) and you can brawl with it reliably alongside other weapons, you just need to practice with the process. I like to think of the gauss as having a hard-ish learning curve but high reward factor.

I appreciate how you feel about it, I just don't feel the same.

[Hythos]

PalmaRoma, on 16 September 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Yes it deals flat damage, because its mechwarrior online, not Call of Duty, not Battlefield 3 or any other generic fps. This is mechwarrior. PGI decided not to go the route of yet another game that will be dominated by those with twitch aiming ability, they decided the game will instead have require tactics and strategy first, while having timing, and a steady aim be the important skills that are also a deciding factor for success in game. Does that mean the Gauss rifle is not a sniper weapon? Nope. Just means twitch aiming isn't going to give you those one shots. Though, the gauss rifle is probably the most reliable long range weapon in game to core cockpits with, being that it's projectile is both the most damaging and the quickest and has one of the best ranges in game.

A sniper weapon doesn't have to do extra damage to vital areas, it has to be a long range weapon that excels at long range to be qualified, just cause mechwarrior went the route of encouraging things other than twitch aiming doesn't mean the gauss is automatically not a sniper weapon, because you can still core a cockpit with steady aim at long range. That is what a sniper is, a skilled marksmen firing a primarily long range weapon from afar, and your saying a long range weapon that is most suited for coring cockpits out of any other weapon is not a sniper weapon? What? Since when did a weapon need to deal critical damage to the head to be a sniper weapon? Are games that allow critical damage headhosts with normal weapons mean that all these weapons are sniper weapons now?

Only, PGI has made the Gauss Rifle a sniper-weapon all on their own, and specifically for their target market:
http://mwomercs.com/...aphic-argument/
You and I are arguing the same for the Gauss mechanic, save the purpose. If it were intended to be used as a pure Sniper weapon, it would have had bonuses in Battletech - and not virtually identical to-hit probability as an ERPPC... which by your definition, would also be a Sniper weapon (in BT).

If the modification is due to balance, they need not insult us by making up a story about it being a sniper weapon, because it will have other consequences with that classification. It's plainly clear to me, that they're forcing mechanics onto us all in favor of inspiring more Bukakefield/ModernBorefair/FPS players to find something they're familiar with in MWO.
Absolutely insulting to at least I, whom wants the best for a Battletech/Mechwarrior title to NOT suck and ruin its good name (like MW:Dark Age had done).

[Devils Advocate]

It's a sniper rifle and MWO is an FPS. There's no such thing as too diverse a field for a weapon to shoot at, one-shot-kills are not a requirement for sniper rifles in the vast majority of FPS games, you don't lose your shot if you don't take it you just have to prepare it again (breathing mechanic), limitations on reticle speed are irrelevant, being out in the open doesn't mean you aren't sniping, anybody out in the open is putting themselves at risk.

Take a breath and read the things you write down, man. None of that made any sense at all. You're trying to compare... what, giant robots to the dudes in real life as they are simulated through games in Battlefield? A sniper rifle is just a long range weapon and one that often requires a setup. Tribes has a sniper rifle that requires you to make a charge shot to and I don't hear anybody yelling up and down that it isn't a sniper rifle or tribes isn't an FPS because you have to be out in the open to shoot at dudes. Just another in a very, very long list of the same thread over and over.

But if you REALLY feel that badly about it you can tell people it's a "long range gun that you have to charge up to shoot and if you charge too long it loses the ability to shoot and you have to charge it again and it can't really get headshots because people in this game that it's in don't have heads you can headshot unless you have two or something but then it's not really a sniper rifle because real sniper rifles require you to use two hands to shoot them and jagers don't even have hands but they can use them anyway."

Edited by Devils Advocate, 16 September 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Hythos, on 16 September 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Only, PGI has made the Gauss Rifle a sniper-weapon all on their own, and specifically for their target market:
http://mwomercs.com/...aphic-argument/
You and I are arguing the same for the Gauss mechanic, save the purpose. If it were intended to be used as a pure Sniper weapon, it would have had bonuses in Battletech - and not virtually identical to-hit probability as an ERPPC... which by your definition, would also be a Sniper weapon (in BT).

If the modification is due to balance, they need not insult us by making up a story about it being a sniper weapon, because it will have other consequences with that classification. It's plainly clear to me, that they're forcing mechanics onto us all in favor of inspiring more Bukakefield/ModernBorefair/FPS players to find something they're familiar with in MWO.
Absolutely insulting to at least I, whom wants the best for a Battletech/Mechwarrior title to NOT suck and ruin its good name (like MW:Dark Age had done).

Hmm, I feel a bit divided on this one, I'm not sure they were making the gauss more sniperish for that sake of it's target audience but the quote from the PGI dev does annoy me a bit. I do like that they are reaching to all sorts of players, but at the same time, I don't want this game to be an "action gamer game". I was wondering why it took them so long to nerf the ppcs and gauss, I suppose now it makes sense. I feel the Gauss was going in a good direction in terms of the charge though, the minimum range for it also needs to be added as well, but the charge was a good direction for balance so I don't want to see it go. Though the point about the gauss in battleteh I can't agree with, some thing do have to actually change when you go from TT to fps, the gauss I felt was a pretty decently handled imo. Though as I said, that quote from the PGI dev, does give me a bad taste in my mouth, 6 months to fix the ppcs, that cannot be a coincidence. In all honesty though I feel the gauss wouldn't fit the role of a traditional role of a sniper weapon with that charge up thing, I'd want to say that they made a pretty unique version of a MW sniper weapon, it is different enough from a normal sniper weapon to be unique imo.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 16 September 2013 - 08:55 PM.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I think everyone seems to be skirting around a pretty simple point here.
The Gauss Rifle has basically been fixed into a long range weapon, where it performs optimally at long range, though it is still useable in CQC.

Low health, highly explosive, charge to shoot. It's been niche'd. I think this is a good thing, and theres enough people using it to say that it isnt a bad weapon at all. If you want a snapshot long range weapon use an ERPPC.

The trade off is that the ERPPC has infinite ammunition and high heat.

Trade offs.

[Hythos]

Devils Advocate, on 16 September 2013 - 08:11 PM, said:

It's a sniper rifle and MWO is an FPS. There's no such thing as too diverse a field for a weapon to shoot at, one-shot-kills are not a requirement for sniper rifles in the vast majority of FPS games, you don't lose your shot if you don't take it you just have to prepare it again (breathing mechanic), limitations on reticle speed are irrelevant, being out in the open doesn't mean you aren't sniping, anybody out in the open is putting themselves at risk.


But if you REALLY feel that badly about it you can tell people it's a "long range gun that you have to charge up to shoot and if you charge too long it loses the ability to shoot and you have to charge it again and it can't really get headshots because people in this game that it's in don't have heads you can headshot unless you have two or something but then it's not really a sniper rifle because real sniper rifles require you to use two hands to shoot them and jagers don't even have hands but they can use them anyway."

That's kind of it, though. Were PGI to say that, or "We feel it must have X,Y,Z changes" - it'd be an entirely different story. But instead, they're changing something significant in Battletech to fit their 'vision', and are pointing back to the origin in their defense - which is false. They're not owning up to their decisions on this, and other issues (PPC, CWx10, GHOST HEAT, Clans, 3PV, ECM, UAC/5--finally recognized properly, Spider Hit-box, HSR and Spiders/Jenners, Rubber-banding, Gauss 'fragility', "Paper Doll" update-lag, Ben Afleck as Batman, LRMs being OP, SStreaks, JumpSniping reticle-shake, 135kph almost = 152kph, Catapult head hit-box - to name a few), in attempts to avoid backlash.