37 replies to this topic

[Lynx7725]

My opinion at the moment is that energy weapons are getting a bit too badly hit by heat to be a choice in most builds. I'm not talking PPCs/ ER PPCs or ghost heat, I'm saying as a whole, energy weapons doesn't have that much to recommend it IMO.

Yes, it doesn't need ammo. However, the current heat system hurts energy weapons to the point where they are more of adjunct weapons, and not primary systems. In a game system where games last less than 15 minutes, having no ammo dependencies is not actually that big an advantage. Comparatively, in order to bring the heat of a medium-class energy weapon down to an rough practical equivalent of a B or M weapon takes a lot of tonnage and critical space.

While I'm definitely not in favour of improving E weapons to the point where everyone boats them, I think at the moment, the balance is such that E weapons are at a disadvantage when people make choices. I like Dakka Dakka and Missile Massacres like any other mechhead, but I also do like having the option to use energy boats if I want to, and right now it's almost always a negative when I consider builds.

The usual suggestions apply -- a general reduction in heat per E weapons, perhaps, or a slight tweak to DHS dissipation rates to encourage E weapon usage (but not too much as that would increase B and M weapon usage too).

[FupDup]

For most energy weapons this is most likely a heat system problem instead of an energy weapon problem. The exclusions are MPL and LPL, which are just too hot for their relatively rewards.

A proper high dissipation + low capacity heat system would work wonders for energy weapons in general. However, PGI currently thinks that heat neutral mechs are exploitable so they gave us low dissipation + high capacity; this was done in order to promote firing off a few alphas and then waiting behind cover to cool down.

Edited by FupDup, 15 September 2013 - 08:14 PM.

[Lynx7725]

FupDup, on 15 September 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

A proper high-dissipation + low-capacity heat system would work wonders for energy weapons in general. However, PGI currently thinks that heat neutral mechs are exploitable so they gave us low dissipation + high capacity; so that we fire off a few alphas and then wait behind cover to cool down.

Interesting perspective. That does however makes E weapons more of sniping weapons, rather than brawling weapons. No cover to cool down behind in a brawl, after all.

I'll be concerned about the impact to B and M weapons if we directly tweak the heat system (not that IMO it doesn't need tweaking, but it's best to compartmentalize changes to limit the impact and have observable results). If it's possible, I'll like to constrain any changes to E weapons, but if it's a fundamental issues then we'll need to address the root.

[Mister Blastman]

Medium lasers need to be dropped by 1 pt of heat as well as medium pulse lasers need a further buff.

[FupDup]

Lynx7725, on 15 September 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

Interesting perspective. That does however makes E weapons more of sniping weapons, rather than brawling weapons. No cover to cool down behind in a brawl, after all.

I'll be concerned about the impact to B and M weapons if we directly tweak the heat system (not that IMO it doesn't need tweaking, but it's best to compartmentalize changes to limit the impact and have observable results). If it's possible, I'll like to constrain any changes to E weapons, but if it's a fundamental issues then we'll need to address the root.

B and M weapons don't generate very much heat most of the time, so they wouldn't be affected a whole lot. For E weapons, what fast cooling and low capacity does is basically allows you to fire E weapons a lot faster but you can't fire as many at one specific time. In the current game, E weapons tend to be fired in large quantities up until you reach near max capacity, and then you have to wait for quite a long while before it's safe to resume firing. That actually promotes sniping because snipers can afford to wait out the heat from behind cover.

Fast cooling would actually allow E weapons to have a lot more endurance in a brawl than what they have now due to being able to fire them a lot more often. It also has the nice side-effect of making the very big E weapons hard to boat with because firing them all at once would result in instant shutdown (capacity locked somewhere around 30, compared to current ~50-70). People could still boat PPCs, but they'd have to space out their shots in a volley instead of an alpha in order to not shut down (such a system would also give us another good reason to remove ghost heat...).


.........

And yes, some E weapon heat reductions would be good to have regardless. Namely, the ML and SL don't need to be hotter than their TT heat values (3 and 1, respectively). This also lets us comparatively reduce the heat on the MPL and SPL (their BT stats are +1 heat compared to standard lasers, so they go down to 4 and 2 heat respectively). The LPL needs to go down to ~8 heat, and [ER]PPCs should probably be kept hot so that they have a true downside to using them (which they used to lack). The LL seems to be pretty close to where it should be, so I wouldn't make any changes to it other than a heat system reform. I'm not sure about the ERLL (it seems fine for the most part).

Edited by FupDup, 15 September 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[hashinshin]

Pulse lasers suck, that we know.

Medium lasers are INCREDIBLY spammable though, and large lasers are probably the best weapon in the game right now.

Lasers as a whole might suck, but they have 2 of the best weapons in the game. Right now you pretty much have UAC5, Large lasers, and medium lasers as thje best.

[Applejack]

Energy weapons are ideal for light 'mechs. Improving them improves the lights because they don't have enough tons for the big guns.

With that said, I don't think energy weapons need a rework. Small lasers, medium lasers, and large lasers are all eminently functional both as primary and secondary weapons. Pulse lasers do need some attention though.

[RandomLurker]

Pulse lasers (and small lasers) need more falloff range. PPC's need their velocity back (ok, I just suck with them), and the flamer needs a ground-up redesign.

Other than that, I think they are great as they are.

[RiceyFighter]

MPL got the worst in my opinion because the obvious choice is ML. ML vs MPL in terms of tonnage, damage, and heat, the ML always going to win.

I am sacrificing: range, heat, and tonnage for .42 more DPS and 1 more damage.

MPL needs some kind of buff, I am all in favor for 1 more damage or .5 heat reduction.

[Grits N Gravy]

The only reason the heat got upped was back in closed beta, there were no engine restrictions and everyone was running around in 220kph hunchback laser boats. They nerfed the heat on mediums and everyone boated smalls. Then we got engine restrictions, and the medium laser settled into it's current role as a secondary weapon.

Double heat sinks came and people though this might make medium laser builds viable again. Then a dev stated reason why the double heat sinks had only 1.4 heat dispersion was that, on the dev server with true 2.0 heat, he cored out an atlas way to fast and they didn't want the game to return to laser warrior online. With all the other subsequent changes, I doubt we'll ever see to medium lasers change. I get the sense that pgi is happy where they are at now.

[MustrumRidcully]

Well, thanks for FuDup, now I don't have to explain that the problem here is not energy weapons per se, but the heat system.

Heat is not meant to act as regenerating ammo, it's a system to create a trade-off in mech build and mech play.

Mech Build: Choose between a cool and a hot build based on whether you want more firepower at the expense of sustainability and various heat penalties, or a cool build for less firepower but longer sustainability and more reliable performance.
Mech Play: Deliver a massive, hot blow now, because you believe it's your best time to do so, risking that you can't be as effective next turn, or deliver only a lighter blow so you can still deliver a powerful one next turn when your situation is better.

[Wolfways]

If you believe that certain energy weapons (i.e. pulses) need a buff to make them more useful then i agree.
If you believe that energy weapons are currently useful (as other than backup weapons) then i disagree.
The worst ballistic weapon in the game (AC5) has a higher dps than the best energy weapon (LPL). Energy weapons are useless when ballistics have been given a vastly increased rate of fire.

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

The plethora of "hot maps" we currently have in the rotation adds one more reason to avoid using energy weapons if you can...I especially dread getting Terra Therma (which comes up more often than others), Caustic, or Tourmaline with my BJ-3 and BJ-1X that I'm leveling up (all energy hardpoints).

[Khobai]

Quote

Medium lasers need to be dropped by 1 pt of heat as well as medium pulse lasers need a further buff.

It would be better to try them at 3.5 heat. Medum lasers used to be at 3 heat and were nerfed to 4 heat for a reason.

[D A T A]

heat system is completely broken, all the system need to be watched again, the fist madness is the ghost heat, the second one are the underpowered ppcs, the third load time to gauss......

[RandomLurker]

Wolfways, on 16 September 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

If you believe that certain energy weapons (i.e. pulses) need a buff to make them more useful then i agree.
If you believe that energy weapons are currently useful (as other than backup weapons) then i disagree.
The worst ballistic weapon in the game (AC5) has a higher dps than the best energy weapon (LPL). Energy weapons are useless when ballistics have been given a vastly increased rate of fire.

There are more things to consider then DPS. Arm mounted laser weapons, combined with good mouse-fu, are a deadly accurate scalpel and light mech murderer. Pulse lasers even more so, since their duration is shorter. Or they would be if their range didn't suck.

I routinely get 500+ damage and multiple kills on my Treb 5J with 3 mlas and 2 llas. Light mechs rush at me anticipating an easy kill, and run away in fear a few seconds later. Heavies and assaults have lost many arms and legs to my skirmishing. You have to play to the strengths of the weapon.

[Wolfways]

RandomLurker, on 16 September 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

There are more things to consider then DPS. Arm mounted laser weapons, combined with good mouse-fu, are a deadly accurate scalpel and light mech murderer. Pulse lasers even more so, since their duration is shorter. Or they would be if their range didn't suck.

I routinely get 500+ damage and multiple kills on my Treb 5J with 3 mlas and 2 llas. Light mechs rush at me anticipating an easy kill, and run away in fear a few seconds later. Heavies and assaults have lost many arms and legs to my skirmishing. You have to play to the strengths of the weapon.

But lasers spread the damage, as do ballistics which also do a lot more damage per hit.

[xMEPHISTOx]

Regular lasers are not so bad, it is the pulse versions that are lacking. They provide very little incentive to use them at this time. As for lasers vs. ballistics...well that's going to depend on a persons play style and the type of mechs they build. I personally find both useful. LL and UAC5 on k2 ftw.

[RandomLurker]

Wolfways, on 16 September 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

But lasers spread the damage, as do ballistics which also do a lot more damage per hit.

Lasers only spread the damage if you have lousy aim. With arm mounted lasers and practice, I can keep 90% of the beam on one location even on a moving target. Much lower on light mechs ofc. And if I'm getting a lot of cockpit shake. And so on. Lasers are awesome in fact, because they are instaneous. You just need to practice holding them on target (turn off arm lock if you haven't already).

So, bottom line, regular lasers are fine. The small could use more falloff range. Pulse lasers NEED more falloff range, they are not worth the tonnage tax. PPC's are fine, although I personally miss the higher velocity. And flamers suck like a Hoover and need a ground up rework. Pretty much what everyone else has said for the most part.

[Qrbaza]

RandomLurker, on 16 September 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Lasers only spread the damage if you have lousy aim. With arm mounted lasers and practice, I can keep 90% of the beam on one location even on a moving target. Much lower on light mechs ofc. And if I'm getting a lot of cockpit shake. And so on. Lasers are awesome in fact, because they are instaneous. You just need to practice holding them on target (turn off arm lock if you haven't already).

O'really? If enemy do standard torso twist and believe you me most of people do that i must add, there is no way in hell you can hold 90% of the beam duration on one spot and you can be "master teach me aiming proffessional" for all i care!

The bottom line is that weapons are just fine and working okay except for pulse part. The problem would be stacking them due to gimpy hardpoint system of PGI's! Weight play great role here. Larger the mech more heatsinks means more stacking for them. Lighter the mech means less heatsinks and mostly 6 ML's are cooking your mech to death couse you cant put 2 LL + AC20 or LBX and have good armor + speed on medium. So you focus on maxing everything out and put puney little ML's on your mech! So there is the problem for medium and lights and some heavies if you want to compete you need to be hardcore abusive with fire groups to do some dmg. If you want to hold hands and do a singalong with 80 dmg at the end of the round you can shoot one ML at the time...!

Edited by Qrbaza, 16 September 2013 - 03:20 PM.