24 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

A lot has been talked about how the heat system in MW:O is flawed - no heat penalties, a high heat threshold but a dissipation that doesn't match the heat generation of weapons enabled by their fire rates.


Here are some thoughts about how alternate heat systems could look like.

TL;DR:
1) Heat Theshold halved, heat dissipation doubled. No special penalties from heat.
2) Heat Threshold is fixed at 30, heat dissipation doubled. No special penalties from heat.
3) Heat Threshold as now, dissipation doubled, but heat penalties based on the 1-30 "bonus threshold" (subtracting out bonus threshold from sinks in your favor)
4) Heat Threshold as now, dissipation doubled, but heat penalties based on the full scale
5) Heat Threshold no longer with a fixed value, dissipation doubled, heat penalties based on full scale.
To nerf DHS in such a system, engine sinks should always be treated as standard heat sinks.

Notes

The heat penalties were all chosen to have no element of randomization, since many people dislike this, and I personally also doubt it's a good idea.
The penalties might be needlessly specifically defined here, the values are probably subject to experimentation and not final.


Model 1 - Simple Reduction in Threshold and Increase in Dissipation
This is really the most barebone, that I presume would consist mostly of changing a few (probably currently hard-coded) values in the game system.

Lower the heat capacity in half, e.g. instead of 30 + heat sink bonus it becomes 15 + 1/2 heat sink bonus. Increase the heat dissipation by 100 %.

The objective here is to discourage alpha strike builds somewhat and enforce more chain-firing, but also give players the opportunity to build more sustainable mechs.


Model 2 - Fixed Threshold, Increased Dissipation
Heat Threshold sits fixed at 30 points. Heat Sinks give no bonus to the threshold at all.
Dissipation is doubled.


Model 3 - Heat Penalty System based on 30-point base heat threshold
The heat threshold for shutdown ist he same as now: 30 + heat sink bonus.
We still increase the heat dissipation by 100 % in this mode, and we add heat penalties.
I use the term "critical heat" to make talking about the system a bit easier. Critical Heat is any heat that exceeds your heat sink bonus worth in heat. So if you have 10 single heat sinks and are at 12 heat, you have 2 critical heat.
The heat penalties are determined by critical heat. This models the TT heat penalty closest in that you don'T suffer any penalties if you can generate less heat then you can sink.
1+ Critical Heat: -3 % movement speed penalty for every point of critical heat above 0. (Maximum -90 %)
6+ Critical Heat: -3 % torso twist speed and arm movement speed per point of critical above 5. (Maximum -75 %)
11+ Critical Heat: -3 % torso twist range and arm movement range per point above 10 (Maximum -60 %)
16+ Critical Heat: 3 % cooldown increase on all weapons per point above 10.
21+ Critical Heat: Electritical System disturbance. ECM, BAP, HUD and Radar fall out for 1 second every (11 - Point per Critical Heat seconds)
26+ Critical Heat: Minimap disabled, 3PV Drone contact breaks off
30 Shutdown, internal damage as presently.

Summary
Heat Threshold 30 + [Bonus from Heat Sinks]
Penalty start occuring on: Heat > [Bonus from Heat Sinks]

Model 4 - Heat Penalty based on percentage of full heat threshold
We base the heat penalty on the total heat threshold, without trying to distinguish between base heat threshold and bonus threshold from heat sinks. Heat dissipation rate is still doubled.

This doesn't model the TT system well, because you now suffer heat penalties even if you're not actually running a hot build. I think that might be okay. Because there is still a fixed heat threshold component in this model, there is a certain benefit to mechs with few heat sinkis and low amount of weaponry. To make 4 PPCs heat neutral, you would need roughly 25 True DHS, which would give you a heat threshold of 80. 4 PPCs make out 50 % of that threshold now per alpha. If you on the other hand only need to keep 4 MLs heat neutral, that is only 10 True DHS, which would give you a heat threshold of 40, so a 4ML alpha would only make out 40% of your threshold. This benefit might be good to compensate heavier mechs tonnage advantage.

All heat penalties are now based on the percentage of your heat.
0-20 %: No penalties
21+%: You lose 1 % speed per percentage point above 20. (maximum 80 %)
41+ %: You lose 1.25 % torso torso twist speed and movement speed per percentage point above (maximum 75%)
51+ %: You lose 1.5 % torso twist range and arm movement range per point above 50. (Maximum -75 %)
61+ %: All weapon cooldowns increase by 1 % per point above 60. (maximum +40 %).
81: Electrical Systems disturbance. ECM, BAP, HUD and Radar fall out every second every (21-percentage above 80)/2 seconds for 1 second.)
100%: Shutdown. Beyond internal damage as presently.

Summary
Heat Threshold 30 + [Bonus from Heat Sinks]
Penalty start occuring on: Heat > 20 % of heat threshold.

Model 5 - Heat Penalty based on percentage of completely heat sink derived threshold
As Model 3 in terms of penalties before, but the base heat threshold is now heat threshold bonus * 2. A 10 heat sink mech would have a range from 0-20, while a 25 True DHS mech would have a range of 0-100. (Please note that with the Bonus Tweaks to balance DHS vs SHS described below, 25 "True DHS" would only be 15 "True DHS" + 10 "Standard HS", so the value of such a theoretical mech would "only" range from 0-80.)

In this model, there is no benefit left for low heat sink mechs. It all depends on what you equip your mech with.

Summary
Heat Threshold: 2 x [Bonus from Heat Sinks]
Penalty start occuring on: Heat > 20 % of heat threshold.


Bonus Tweaks - Balancing DHS vs SHS
If we want to "nerf" DHS and make single heat sinks and double heat sinks competitive:

The free Engine sinks all act like standard heat sinks, regardless of whether you use the DHS or SHS upgrade. (Keep in mind that all the alternative models pretty much double dissipation, so SHS will be closer in performance to how DHS are right now when it comes to dissipation).

The free engine sinks are the biggest part of the DHS upgrade, and removing that would probably be all that is needed to make SHS and DHS competitive against each other.


Opinions?
What would be the model you start with from the ones presented?
Or would you start with one of those models, but tweak it in some way (say, a hybrid of two models?)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 20 September 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[dustd212]

model4, because this will most likely work as intended, if i get the intention right that Heat Management has to be mor important, and these Hiogh Alpha Builds should have a penalty...

[MustrumRidcully]

Ah, I forgot to make the poll public.

Thanks for the reply dustd212 - you think that having the full heat threshold depend on a static and a dynamic (based on heat sinks installed) component is best, or do you have no preference between 4 and 5?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 September 2013 - 01:49 AM.

[Asmosis]

where's the option for "fine as is"? needs some tweaks but its doing a pretty good job of what its supposed to, not counting the bugs.

[Cybermech]

I do and have always thought that the skill unlocks are to blame for things being out of wack so much.
Reduction in those skills with the system we have now would be a very solid game pace and play.

[dustd212]

I would prefer a full heat threshold depending from a static threshold. That mean no difference between the base threshold and the threshold of additional heat sinks...

[MustrumRidcully]

Asmosis, on 18 September 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

where's the option for "fine as is"? needs some tweaks but its doing a pretty good job of what its supposed to, not counting the bugs.

The last two options should be for you. This isn't really a "should we do anything" poll, but a "if we'd do anything, what would you want to try out?" poll. Also, I made the poll unintentioinally worthless by forgetting to make it public.

Cybermech, on 18 September 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

I do and have always thought that the skill unlocks are to blame for things being out of wack so much.
Reduction in those skills with the system we have now would be a very solid game pace and play.

I think they just add a tiny bit to the problem, but the fundamental issue is that the heat threshold is too high (or heat drawbakcs happen to late). One certainly can't underrate the ability to add another alpha strike to the (pre-ghost heat nerf) Quad PPC Stalker, but it only adds another alpha strike because the threshold is so high in the first place.

[Solis Obscuri]

I like the idea of movement penalties etc, but the thresholds you set seem terribly low - it would be impossible to fire anything much past an MG or Gauss Rifle without being subjected to immediate penalties. With a higher percentage threshold, I think it could work well, though.

[Corvus Antaka]

Current model works fine option?

[Xanquil]

I like model 3 except I would reduce the max crit heat to 15 and add a chance for ammo explosions/mech damage for going past 15.

[MustrumRidcully]

Solis Obscuri, on 19 September 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

I like the idea of movement penalties etc, but the thresholds you set seem terribly low - it would be impossible to fire anything much past an MG or Gauss Rifle without being subjected to immediate penalties. With a higher percentage threshold, I think it could work well, though.

Don't be so scared of some heat penalties, is my advice. They will be as much part of firing your guns as consuming ammo or producing heat in the first place, and they are not necessarily crippling, especially since you will recover quickly.

Let's say you'd build a Triple PPC Awesome and equip it with 20 DHS. Let's say even with the engine heat sinks are all single heat sinks, so effectively only 10 SHS and 10 DHS, a +30 to threshold (total 60) and 6 dissipation per second.
First alpha builds up 30 heat, that 50%. Your speed would be lowered by 30 %, your torso movement speed lowered by 12.5 %, you're down to 40 % heat, so only 20 % speed less. You will feel your mech getting slower for a moment, basically meaning that after an alpha strike, you are harmstrung the most, but you quickly recover.

But if that is not for you, check out model 3. The example Awesome would suffer only a penalty on the 2nd alpha (6 points of critical heat (3 % torso speed movement range, -18 % mech movement, and on the 3rd alpha it would be at 12 heat, it would suffer a 21 % torso movement speed penalty, a 36 % speed penalty, and a 6 % penalty to torso movement range.).

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 19 September 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[Dyson Ring]

I like Model 3 out of all the the ones presented.

One thing I'd tweak about DHS would be to make them all around 1.7 - 1.75 efficiency, change Cool Run and Heat Containment's bonuses (when at X2) to improve DHS to equivalent to full 2.0 DHS.

[FireSlade]

Model 3 and 4 are the same thing really with the only difference being the display of numbers. Because model 4 shows it from 0% - 100% I think that makes it quicker to comprehend then seeing 28 and trying to think 28/30=93%. We need some soft heat penalties like the ones you mentioned to get people to start thinking, “Should I throw that LL on or go with 2 MLs with some heat sinks?” and maybe we would start seeing some balanced builds in the upper tiers of the ELO bracket.

My other idea for the system would be to give each type of heat sink a purpose. If you run SHS then they would add a point to the 30-point max heat, but also cool slightly faster than they do now. If you decide to upgrade to DHS then you are locked at the 30-point max heat but instead of adding to the cooling capacity, it adds to the cooling dissipation. This would give SHS a niche role allowing people to Alpha 3-4 PPCs but they would instantly run too hot making them suffer the soft penalties while they wait to cool off or they can fire one at a time and run cooler but not be able to deliver pinpoint damage.

The other thing that I would like to add is that when you hit 95% (can be adjusted) heat then some low random chance of an ammo explosion and the hotter that the mech gets then the higher that chance becomes with it being 100% chance at 125% heat. The current chance now being that the ammo takes damage at 100% heat and after the 10hp is gone, it has a 10% chance to explode.

Maybe with a balanced heat system PGI never would have had to use a ghost heat system, but then that would mean that they would have to admit that they were wrong and have to redesign their whole system for it to work.

[MustrumRidcully]

Model 3 and 4 differ in that Model 3 only applies heat penalties once you go beyond your heat sink capacity. Of course, Model 4 has that 20 % area where you suffer no heat penalties, but even a bog standard 10 heat sink mech would in Model 3 be able to avoid any heat penalties on up to 25 % heat, and this only increases as you add more heat sinks.


Yyour idea is an interesting variation of Model 3 and how to "nerf" DHS.

I think you don't need any special heat capacity rules anymore if you just use the tweak I suggest - the engine never holds double heat sinks
Example:
Trying to fit 10 DHS outside the Assault engine when that Assault is also bristling with weapons isn't easy, that's 30 Crit Slots. It can be easier to use 20 SHS, that's only 20 Crit Slots, and you can even equip them in your CT, legs or head slot, where you often could only fit ammo.

[Gaan Cathal]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 September 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Don't be so scared of some heat penalties, is my advice. They will be as much part of firing your guns as consuming ammo or producing heat in the first place, and they are not necessarily crippling, especially since you will recover quickly.

Let's say you'd build a Triple PPC Awesome and equip it with 20 DHS. Let's say even with the engine heat sinks are all single heat sinks, so effectively only 10 SHS and 10 DHS, a +30 to threshold (total 60) and 6 dissipation per second.
First alpha builds up 30 heat, that 50%. Your speed would be lowered by 30 %, your torso movement speed lowered by 12.5 %, you're down to 40 % heat, so only 20 % speed less. You will feel your mech getting slower for a moment, basically meaning that after an alpha strike, you are harmstrung the most, but you quickly recover.

That's very nice for the Awesome but, frankly, movement/twist penalties for heat will murder the Light game. It's already gone from the most intense, wire-tight part of the game to being the mole in a game of whack-a-mole over the course of Open Beta, they don't need anymore kicking. All it will do is introduce the "true to TT" game some what where a Light or Medium is just fodder for anything heavier and we all end up in Atlai. Other penalties may work, but hooking movement into the mix punishes faster mechs unreasonably and also encourages stationary camping in a similar way to movement-hooked inaccuracy.

I've voted for option one because, frankly, if this were ever implemented, it would have to be in a staged process, and that would be the first. I personally think that a change in the capacity/disspation relationship would probably suffice, although some weapon tweaks would likely need to come out of it (lasers come to mind). I'm a big advocate simply because it would reward good piloting and aiming more than getting the cursor in the right place once and clicking. Dual gauss would still have it's terrifying 30-pt long ranged pinpoint alpha but frankly I think the weapon pays enough in weight, ammo constraints and blowing-up-when-looked-at-funny that it deserves the niche.

[Solis Obscuri]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 September 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

Don't be so scared of some heat penalties, is my advice. They will be as much part of firing your guns as consuming ammo or producing heat in the first place, and they are not necessarily crippling, especially since you will recover quickly.

Let's say you'd build a Triple PPC Awesome and equip it with 20 DHS. Let's say even with the engine heat sinks are all single heat sinks, so effectively only 10 SHS and 10 DHS, a +30 to threshold (total 60) and 6 dissipation per second.
First alpha builds up 30 heat, that 50%. Your speed would be lowered by 30 %, your torso movement speed lowered by 12.5 %, you're down to 40 % heat, so only 20 % speed less. You will feel your mech getting slower for a moment, basically meaning that after an alpha strike, you are harmstrung the most, but you quickly recover.

But if that is not for you, check out model 3. The example Awesome would suffer only a penalty on the 2nd alpha (6 points of critical heat (3 % torso speed movement range, -18 % mech movement, and on the 3rd alpha it would be at 12 heat, it would suffer a 21 % torso movement speed penalty, a 36 % speed penalty, and a 6 % penalty to torso movement range.).

I'm a little fuzzy on how you're defining "threshold", which I think its part of the problem... you initial post made it sound like the threshold was equal to your total number of HS, which concerned me a bit. If it's 30+HS, that's a much more generous threshold.

[MustrumRidcully]

Solis Obscuri, on 19 September 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

I'm a little fuzzy on how you're defining "threshold", which I think its part of the problem... you initial post made it sound like the threshold was equal to your total number of HS, which concerned me a bit. If it's 30+HS, that's a much more generous threshold.

Yes.

To rephrase things:
Current Threshold is 30 + 1 point per standard heat sink, or +2 per engine double heat sink, +1.4 per out-of-engine double heat sink. (Simplified version)

Variant Threshold with my suggested tweak would be: 30 + 1 per standard heat sink, +1 per engine heat sink (regardless if double or standard), +2 per out-of-engine double heat sink.

Model 1)
Threshold is 15 + 1/2 [heat sink bonus]

Model 2)
Threshold is 30. No penalties.

Model 3)
Threshold is 30 + [heat sink bonus]. Penalties occur once your heat goes beyond current heat sink bonus, and are scaled over the remaining 30 points.

Model 4)
Threshold is [30 + heat sink bonus]. Penalties are determined by percentage of total threshold.

Model 5)
Threshold is [heat sink bonus] x 2 (or different multiplier we deem appropriate). Penalties are determined by percentage of total threshold.


Lights wouldn't suffer any penalties immediately. From the heat penalty variations, Model 3 might be nicest towards lights. while their base heat sinks isn't that much, they also will not generate that much heat compared to the 30 points base, their heat load per weapon cycling will be relatively low compared to those 30 points, so they are not that likely to go deep into the penalty range. (Example: 4 ML Jenner: 16 heat per weapon cycle or alpha. With 10 standard heat sinks, that puts him 6 points into the penalty range on the first alpha, and to 14 on the second. A 4 PPC Stalker with 20 DHS (+30 to threshold from sinks) would be 10 points into the penalty on the first alpha or weapon cycle, and at 26 on the second. So the mech with ~2.5 times the tonnage and twice the firepower also gains almost twice as hefty heat penalties)

[Gaan Cathal]

MustrumRidcully, on 20 September 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Lights wouldn't suffer any penalties immediately. From the heat penalty variations, Model 3 might be nicest towards lights. while their base heat sinks isn't that much, they also will not generate that much heat compared to the 30 points base, their heat load per weapon cycling will be relatively low compared to those 30 points, so they are not that likely to go deep into the penalty range. (Example: 4 ML Jenner: 16 heat per weapon cycle or alpha. With 10 standard heat sinks, that puts him 6 points into the penalty range on the first alpha, and to 14 on the second. A 4 PPC Stalker with 20 DHS (+30 to threshold from sinks) would be 10 points into the penalty on the first alpha or weapon cycle, and at 26 on the second. So the mech with ~2.5 times the tonnage and twice the firepower also gains almost twice as hefty heat penalties)

My concern is less that lights/mediums would hit penalties early, more that a speed/maneuverability penalty means very little to an Atlas or Stalker, whereas you only need to compare the RVN-3L and -2X ingame to see the difference even a relatively minor speed difference makes to a light.

[MustrumRidcully]

Gaan Cathal, on 20 September 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

My concern is less that lights/mediums would hit penalties early, more that a speed/maneuverability penalty means very little to an Atlas or Stalker, whereas you only need to compare the RVN-3L and -2X ingame to see the difference even a relatively minor speed difference makes to a light.

I think they mean a lot to heavies, too, because if you're getting even slower, and even worse in your torso twist rate and speed, you have no chance of tracking a light mech.

(I generally think that this is one thing to tweak lights or mediums vs assaults - ensure that lights and mediums also have the best torso twist rates and ranges and turning radiuses, ensuring that they can really outmaneuver mediums and assaults. Currently heavier mechs benefit a lot from the larger engines they automatically require.)

[Skoll Lokeson]

Voted 3. But I would like to see the penalties adjusted per class. Less movement penalties for light and mediums who need their speed more than assaults, and usually don't pack very high alphas w/o serious trade offs anyway. The problem with lights and mediums isn't their high heat/high alphas IMO (except the old Laserback). They don't need to get "fixed" as much as heavies and assaults. Messing with their electronics, cool down and such is fine, I think.