17 replies to this topic

[Prawfutt]

I am still fairly new to MWO, playing a little over a month, but I believe one of the biggest things lacking in game is an actual economy.

(Summary)
Early in the game there was a repair/equip function which I assume tracked spent ammo, armor, and component destruction. I suggest a rework of that feature to allow a winning team to salvage components and pieces from the losing team. A "Loot" type system would greatly appeal to the RPG gamers out there. It would also allow you to introduce salvaged mechs. which could be an alternative to the cbill grind (and the cbill nerf which has so many people angry about). And lastly it could lead to a "black market" which could function as an auction house for parts and pieces sold between players.

(Full Idea)
1: SALVAGE
First off remove the Cbill salvage. Replace it with a Salvage Rights system that is tied to match score. Something like 25 match score = 1 Right, 75 Match score = 2 Rights, 110+ MS = 3 Rights.

At the end of the match, the winning team gets to spend whatever salvage rights they have earned on "looting" the enemy teams mechs. Each mechwarrior is only able to "loot" a mech that he helped to kill and only the components that are NOT destroyed are lootable.

Example: I help to kill a Jenner7-F who dies due to loss of both legs, and a Catapult A1 who died when his XL was destroyed from Left Torso destroyed. After winning the match I had a match score of 31 which results in 1 Salvage Right. I get to choose between the 7-F, and the A1. I choose the 7-F and then the game randomly generates 1 non destroyed component for me to salvage.

Quality of Salvage: Universal, Chassis/Variant specific, Rare pieces, and Premium Salvage.
Universal weight class pieces would be "common" loot and consist of things like
"Light Mech Hand acctuator" or "Heavy Mech Hip" All the Internal goodies that a mech requires to operate. These types of things would have a 65% drop rate.

Chassis and Variant specific pieces would be "uncommon" loot and be things like,
"Jenner7-F Right Arm" or "Catapult - A1 Right Torso" These pieces are the shell of the mechs. These items would have something like a 20% drop rate.

Rare pieces could be something like a variant specific intact cockpit and have around a 10% drop rate.

Premium Salvage is whatever extra rare goodie you may salvage, a non destroyed XL engine for example and have a drop rate of 5%.

All salvage is stored in your mech lab untill used or sold.

2: SALVAGED MECH CONSTRUCTION
Add an option in an empty mech bay to "Construct" a mech. When selecting the construct button you then are shown what mechs you may begin construction on based off of what components you have in storage. You are required to have at least one chassis/variant specific piece (arm, leg, torso, etc) to begin construction.

After you have collected and assembled all required pieces both internal and external you then pay a finish construction fee to finalize the build and the mech becomes a playable but empty version. (need to install an engine and weapons) The construction fee would likely be the same or slightly lower than the cbill amount you would receive for selling a stripped mech of the same variant.

3: BLACK MARKET
Simply put, an auction house to sell components and/or unwanted equipment. The in game economy this would create would more than supplement the drop in Cbills earned per match from the loss of Salvage Cbills bonus. With the Quality of Salvage idea, items like cockpits are going to be fairly rare and for someone who salvages one it would be a great way for him to turn the rare salvage into a nice cbill boost.

I REALLY hope my idea appeals to the PGI and the fans. I am a huge BattleTech fan and would love to see this game succeed. This idea would add a whole new and very big dimension into the game which I feel it is currently lacking. The ability to construct your own mech from the broken pieces of your enemy is very enticing!

Thanks!

[Munk8]

Salvage and loot roulette are sure fire ways to keep that gambling center firing in gamer's minds!

[twiggets]

The drops rates could be enhanced using MC or premium time. So really it's win-win for everyone.

If you wanted to make it truly crazy when you blow off a mech's arm or leg or explode his engine you have to walk/run up to it and "claim" it .. Which could cause ppl to camp dead bodies and stuff! Ha, fun!

[Johnny Z]

Didnt read the whole topic, but i am all for a virtual store or two with some immersion and hot virtual chic's selling me stuff.

I also hope they add some kind of loot like lost tech and so on, the game play stands on its own after the game has a couple additions, but some loot would be great.

Also it would be cool if in Solaris for instance, there are some high stakes matches where looting after battle is allowed. Again this is a great addition to the game. This isnt a battle i would like maybe, but i think alot of players would like such a match and would make any spectating more interesting knowing that the players have alot of their mech at stake

[Veranova]

I could foresee 2 major problems with this.
Firstly the F2P model doesn't really work with the old salvage system. PGI wants us to spend Cbills on our equipment, not be able to salvage it all.

Secondly, something PGI's worked hard on is building a game that doesn't promote legging or other monotonous tactics.
Since there are few components on the legs, this would lead to everyone going for legs to increase salvage for the upper mech. Info on this is in the latest interview with Russ Bullock: http://www.nogutsnog...opic,999.0.html

[HammerSwarm]

Veranova, on 18 September 2013 - 05:02 AM, said:

I could foresee 2 major problems with this.
Firstly the F2P model doesn't really work with the old salvage system. PGI wants us to spend Cbills on our equipment, not be able to salvage it all.

Secondly, something PGI's worked hard on is building a game that doesn't promote legging or other monotonous tactics.
Since there are few components on the legs, this would lead to everyone going for legs to increase salvage for the upper mech. Info on this is in the latest interview with Russ Bullock: http://www.nogutsnog...opic,999.0.html

Those are valid criticisms. I would love to see the OP address them.

Additionally, how doesn't salvage just replace the Cbill economy? I see that you get equipment both ways, and mechs both ways. What would differentiate this system from the one we have now? If I am playing X# of matches to salvage all of the parts for a Jenner F how would that relate to playing X number of matches for the cbills to buy a jenner F? An atlas and so on? Hero Mechs?

I like the idea of loot, and I would love PGI to put in more variations of weapons to simulate different manufacturers. This could be done with CW to reward sides, like Side A can buy from A shops, and side B can get A items only by defeating As.

Flesh this idea out more and you can earn my support.

[Veranova]

Just to clarify, I would love to see this personally.
However as per my criticisms. I don't think it's going to happen in any degree.

Saying this. I would love to see clan weaponry emerge through Salvage.
The devs start with it, and then anyone who kills one of them salvages a copy of their weapons. Then anyone who kills a mech that has a clan weapon mounted gets a copy of it, and so on.

I believe there's real opportunity to draw in a LOT of players who just want to hunt clan weapons. It would certainly pull back a lot of Battletech people who have left the game during Beta.

[Prawfutt]

@Veranova
I have to admit I am not sure what you mean by F2P model, I am unaware of the term. The idea would not replace the current method of purchasing equipment with Cbills, but rather add an alternative.

Easy Solution- Remove the "Premium Salvage" part of the idea. you can only salvage mech internal structure pieces (shoulder actuator, etc) and mech external pieces (Left arm, etc)
You therefor can not salvage engines, weapons, equipment.
This solution provides people the opportunity to assemble a new mech from salvage but they still have to purchase or use equipment (engine, weapons) they already own to make the mech usable.

I see your concern about legging. I believe the removal of the ability to salvage equipment would alleviate the majority of that. There is another solution that could be included to further decrease the practice and that is changing the salvage to destroyed components rather than non destroyed components IE you salvage what is left behind. This would promote people targeting specific areas that they wanted to salvage but would still keep the people trying to leg an opponent minimal.

Also along the lines of your concerns about salvaging everything is the idea that you can just salvage a bunch of mechs then sell them to make bundles of Cbills. This is where the "Construction Fee" comes into play. When you finish construction of a mech you effectively get a stripped mech. If the fee is set to the same amount as selling a stripped mech then players actually make 0 cbills for constructing and selling mechs.

@HammerSwarm
I was meaning the specific "Salvage" cbill reward that is granted to the winning team currently, not the entire Cbill Economy. In my own observations the average "Salvage" reward for winning team is somewhere between 15,000 to 25,000 depending on how many opponents were destroyed. That reward specifically is what I am suggesting be replaced by the Salvage Rights idea that is tied to your match score.

Thanks for your comments everyone. I look forward to discussing my Idea further.

[Prawfutt]

@HammerSwarm

About Hero Mechs.

This is easily remedied. Introduce a identical non hero variant that is not available for purchase with cbills and can only be salvage built. The non hero would not have any of the benefits of the hero, 30%cbill boost 10%xp boost and custome paint job, but it would have the hard points.

Also, salvaging a mech would likely take longer than earning cbills to purchase one. Random salvage, enemy team composition, assisting with the kill, and having to win the match would likely mean you will be playing MANY matches to salvage enough pieces to construct a full mech. The up side is that you can be collecting pieces for multiple mechs at the same time. I would guess that giving a motivation to play more matches would be something PGI would like. Additionally you still have to use empty mech bays which requires people to either sell owned mechs or purchase new bays with MC.

Lastly they could remove the Black Market idea in favor of setting a standard price for each piece and the ability to sell the pieces in the mech lab similar to selling equipment is currently. Internal structures could sell for 5,000 while externals could sell for 15,000. As I mentioned the current salvage reward is 15000-25000 approximately. This would widen the range of salvage to 5,000 - 45,000.
Cbill gain would stay close to what they are currently. People would have the choice to grind and sell salvage to purchase new mechs or collect to construct.

Edited by Prawfut Bludskin, 18 September 2013 - 09:38 AM.

[focuspark]

won't work, because it's either a zero sum (absolute winners and absolute losers) or a deflating economy (stuff breaks and new stuff only comes from salvaging old stuff). the only way to make an economy work is to have an influx of new materials, a method to processes them, and demand to for the results of the process (usually as a result of stuff degrading to uselessness and needing to be replaced).

today we only have the demand but none of the supply... and i for one don't want to shoot rats in a dungeon for their skins (or the BT equivalent) to get enough raw materials to power the economy.

The only way to make this work, that i can think of, is:

• Make mech loss permanent
  
• Return repair and reload costs
  
• Grant c-bills and salvage points after each match
  
• Make sure the value of the salvage points always exceeds the net value lost in the match (not per-pilot, but match total)
  
• Create a store where player can trade salvage points in for "lots" of goods; the content of which aren't known at purchase.
  
• Have multiple levels of lots, with more expensive lots have a better chance at having "rare" items (XL engines, mech chassis, etc)
  
• Have an auction house where players can trade specific items for c-bills
  
• Allow MC to be sold for c-bills on the auction house
  
• Invite the low-wage farmers

[Veranova]

Prawfut Bludskin, on 18 September 2013 - 09:04 AM, said:

@Veranova
I have to admit I am not sure what you mean by F2P model, I am unaware of the term. The idea would not replace the current method of purchasing equipment with Cbills, but rather add an alternative.

F2P = Free To Play

It's of course a front, as the game does need to make money.
And there are two break-offs from this:
1. Pay to Win - Where only those who buy in game currency can get the most useful/powerful items/avatars.
2. Pay for Convenience - Where all the most powerful items/avatars are available to everyone, but free players will have a moderate grind on their hands. However putting a bit of money in, buying premium time, and maybe buying the items with cash, alleviates the grind, so it's WIN/WIN.

Games that use the former tend not to be that popular, for obvious reasons, and the communities pretty strongly hold F2P devs accountable for P2W tactics.

By adding in game items as something you win by getting kills, this works against the model of grinding for earnings, to spend on these items, as a premium account can't give you 50% more of that Large Laser you salvaged. However it CAN give us 50% more of the CBill salvage bonus. It's all about making that premium time worthwhile.

Basically anything which gets in the way of F2P economies Pay For Convenience, isn't going to be picked up by a F2P developer.

[Prawfutt]

Ok I have some solutions then.
First off remember that this is not replacing the entire CBill earned per game, only the Cbill salvage bonus that is currently
only awarded to the winners which makes it an absolute winner absolute loser situation. They could even give the choice between the salvage cbill bonus (exactly as it is right now) and the chance to gamble for salvage. That is easily enough done with 2 buttons on the score screen for the winning team at the end of the match.
one says (SELL SALVAGE *$$$$$*, EXIT MATCH) *$$$$$*= Cbill amount currently awarded for salvage
the other says (USE SALVAGE RIGHTS, EXIT MATCH)


Pressing either button exits you from the match.
The SELL SALVAGE button would award you the Cbill bonus that is currently in game. Allowing players to grind cbills exactly as is in the current game.
The USE SALVAGE RIGHTS allows you to access the system for salvage as has been discussed so far.

Premium time could be used to give a 50% chance to salvage 2 components for 1 SR. Thus the Pay for Convenience is awarded to people spending money.

Now, I already stated that this system would very likely take MORE time to assemble a full mech. So I will attempt to crunch some numbers.

My profile (which admittedly uses mostly premium time) states my avg Cbill gain per match is 116,189
To make this easy ill round that down to 100,000.
the Price for an Atlas D-DC is 10,486,012. add DHS and its 11,986,012. again for ease we will round to 12,000,000

So effectively I need to play around 120 matches to purchase a new D-DC and equip with DHS.

The Salvage System.

An Atlas D-DC contains 20 Internal components. that are Universal weight class components
Assault - Shoulder (x2)
Assault - Upper arm actuator(x2)
Assault - Lower arm actuator (x2)
Assault - Hand actuator (x2)
Assault - Hip (x2)
Assault - Upper Leg actuator (x2)
Assault - Lower Leg actuator (x2)
Assault - Foot actuator (x2)
Assault - Gyro
Assault - Sensors
Assault - Life Support
Assault - Cockpit

It also has 8 External Variant Specific Pieces
D-DC - Left Arm
D-DC - Right Arm
D-DC - Left Leg
D-DC - Right Leg
D-DC - Left Torso
D-DC - Right Torso
D-DC - Center Torso
D-DC - Head

So you need to gather 28 Components to build a D-DC.
Using a W:L ratio of 1:1 you need to play 56 games. (only salvage on a win)
In every one of those games there has to be a D-DC on the enemy team, it has to die, you have to have killed or assisted the kill. and your luck must be astronomical for you to loot exactly the right pieces and no duplicates.

Just slightly more realistic. We will keep the 1:1 W:L ratio but you only see a D-DC 1 game in every 2
you now have to play 112 games (nearly our 120 cbill grind mark already) and again you have to have killed or assisted the kill on the D-DC whenever it shows up. And still have extreme luck when looting. (you can still loot internal assault weight class components from other assaults in the matches where a D-DC does not show up)

With the random drop rates you are more likely to double or even triple the number of matches you need to play in order to salvage all the correct pieces to build one specific mech.


Again PREMIUM TIME could easily be incorporated to this as a 50% chance at 2 for 1 salvage. decreasing the amount of games needed by 1/4.
Additionally as stated before you still need to purchase Mech Bays in order to construct mechs, which requires real money flowing into the game.

The purpose of this is NOT to replace the current system it is to give the players options and to provide further immersion into the game. Players who want to grind the 120 games required to buy a D-DC are not hindered in the least.

Edited by Prawfut Bludskin, 19 September 2013 - 09:32 AM.

[Prawfutt]

Another way to include Premium time into the mix is threw the Black Market.

Anyone can purchase items from the Black Market using Cbills.

To LIST an item for sale on the black market requires a Fee of MC (10-50 MC per listing or something similar) That is waved for people who List item while on Premium Time.

This allows people who have purchased time or MC to generate extra cbills from selling unwanted / duplicate salvage. It provides an actual in game economy between players (while still rewarding paying players)

Alternatively players who do not pay or do not want to list items can sell unwanted items / duplicate items in their MechLab at set prices. Internals sell for 5k externals sell for 15k. Similar to selling an item to a vendor in WoW rather than placing it on the auction house.

Edited by Prawfut Bludskin, 19 September 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Munk8]

Will delve into this whole topic, time permitting. From what i've speed read through, i'm all for the winning team being granted the salvage rights. I think this would be great overall to inspire players to focus on winning vs on KDR's and selfishness of the like.

[Jess Hazen]

from first glance salvaging any piece of equipment seems way to lucrative to the players from pgi's standpoint. they want to keep you grinding forever and spending those cbills so you don't have any to spend on mechs. so that when you want one you are forced to buy their currency to have it now instead of saving for it. because saving is hard when everything costs an arm and a leg in this game.

especially the modules where the hell do they get the audacity to sell a module for 6M cbills from?

Edited by Jess Hazen, 19 September 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[Strayed]

Salvage is a big part of the economy in the mechwarrior universe. Killing was never really the primary focus of combat usually, taking resources and material was. Be also interesting to add a pilot ransoming mechanic as well since often or not, captured mechwarriors were ransomed, could encourage a more interesting "honour" system.

[CyclonerM]

Well,after a finished battle you should do things quickly , so the salvage mechanics should be simple and quick,but not too much. Salvage is really interesting, but this would be a total change in the economy of the game, and the 'Mech construction as well. It would also need more work on the mechlab.

I think PGI is thinking about the "black market" idea to let IS players buy Clan tech (and i do not like it very much)..

[Cimarb]

First, I think the idea is great. It actually will supplement my idea at http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3498001 quite well, and I will add a link there to refreshen this topic.

CyclonerM, on 20 September 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Well,after a finished battle you should do things quickly , so the salvage mechanics should be simple and quick,but not too much. Salvage is really interesting, but this would be a total change in the economy of the game, and the 'Mech construction as well. It would also need more work on the mechlab.

I think PGI is thinking about the "black market" idea to let IS players buy Clan tech (and i do not like it very much)..

One of the things that I would change to the OP would be the black market should be a way to purchase individual components, chassis sections, ammo, and other things for MC. It is in place solely to allow a mechwarrior down on his luck (or very short on time) to get that elusive item he needs to complete his collection or offset his dwindling cbill funds.

In addition, as my proposal is in regards to CW and the imminent faction restrictions, this salvage system is used more for unlocking cross-faction mechs and equipment, not just as another way to "get stuff". Currently in the Davion faction, but want that Dragon they make deep in Kurita space? Just farm the components until you have salvaged enough to make your own!

Also, I don't want to have ten minutes of "loot roles" after every match - that is NOT something I miss from my MMO days... Instead, the salvage should be based upon what is available in disabled mechs on the losing team, but and only assigned to the winning team. Having it based upon match score is a great idea, but we need to have proper rewards for role warfare before I can agree to do loot based upon that (it would be like having WoW base loot on how much DPS you did... Poor healers would never get loot). Have it dispersed automatically and displayed on the after-action report instead of the lame "salvage reward" line we currently have.