57 replies to this topic

[Veranova]

Does anyone else feel that Ballistics are kinda the new cheese build?

I'm not saying they're massively OP.
But AC40 Jaegers are a force you don't want to contend with, within 400 metres.
UAC5's were the new meta for a while there, and now that's going to shift to AC2's which are arguably worse to have as a meta, because of their longer range and faster fire rate.
Energy weapons on the other hand are as usable as ever, but don't have the advantage of scaring the hell out of anyone getting hit by them.

This I feel is the major advantage Ballistics get. The fact they cause enemy mechs to shake, and often obscure their vision too. It breaks moral and makes aiming difficult.
Obviously a great tactical advantage, however these weapons can sustain a higher DPS than lasers on top of this, and ammo limitations don't seem too much of an issue as half your team is dead by the time ballistic builds run out and switch to secondaries..

What does everyone think?

Edited by Veranova, 18 September 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[Amsro]

Considering they are extremely heavy, ammo dependant (BOOM!) and either hot or fragile (gauss). It seems logical that these weapons are the highest damaging weapons.

SRM's 2.0 need a buff to compete better. The last of the major balance tweaks needed I think.

Some energy weapons need a bit of tweaking but at least they all have benefits over each other in someway that resembles balance. I still use PPC's and single ERPPC's but I also run Large Laser's, Mediums and Small Lasers all of them being useful in their builds. Pulse Lasers need a little bit of love to make them a worthy upgrade to regular lasers.

My energy only mechs don't seem to be at a disadvantage in matches.

Edited by Amsro, 18 September 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[Cerlin]

Lasers are good. Ac are good. LRMs are good. Only SRMs feel sub par to me at the moment. They may need a slight damage buff, or a better fire pattern.

[Shadey99]

Ballistics will always dominate, that is simple math. A AC2 compares roughly equally with a Large Laser.

Given one cycle (4.25 seconds):
AC2 fires 8 times, does 16 damage max, generates 8 heat, and has a longer range with 2000ms speed.
Large Laser fires in pulses for 1 second, does 9 damage max, generates 7 heat, and has a shorter range with 'instant' speed.

PPCs look good versus larger ballistics(4 second period):
AC10 fires once, does 10 damage, generates 3 heat, 450/1350 range, 7 slots, 12 tons, speed 1.1k
PPC fires once, does 10 damage, generates 10 heat, 540/1080 range (90m min), 3 slots, 7 tons, speed 1.5k

However heat per second becomes a big issue. The AC10 with 10 engine DHS generates 1.2 h/s with a dissipation of 2 h/s. The PPC in a equal mech generates 2.5 h/s and dissipates 2.0 h/s. A pair of each is 2.4 h/s (2.05 mins to hit 100% heat) vs 5 h/s (15 seconds to hit 100% heat). Also with a 2.5 second cooldown if we expand our time window to 5 seconds the AC10 will have fired twice to the PPCs 1. Now expand it again to 8 seconds: 3 AC10 shots, 2 PPC shots.

However most mechs have way more energy hard points than ballistic hard points and size and weight keep you from mounting that many ballistics.

Edited by Shadey99, 18 September 2013 - 06:37 AM.

[Itsalrightwithme]

Considering ballistic weapons are heavier -- especially when you factor in the required ammo -- they should outperform energy weapons in terms of DPS vs. HPS. However, in terms of pinpoint damage this is a bit more complicated, because let's be honest that the hit detection system needs a lot of work. Not just in terms of improving HSR but also in terms of fixing mech hitboxes.

Spiders are still damn hard to kill, many mechs are known to have wonky hitboxes, etc.

One other aspect that may need a revisit is ammo per ton for ballistic weapons. Too many -> swing advantage toward ballistics, too few -> swing advantage away from ballistics.

It will take a few days for the "community" to find their favorite Cheese of the Month but I am hopeful that this time we won't see one build dominate others as we have had to put up with in the past.

[UnwantedProblem]

it's a trade off.

Ballistics weight much more than any energy weapon (LRM20 weight is between ac5 and ac10). (Machinguns aside)
Even ac2 weights more than any energy weapon (considering 2 tons of ammo).

The desired trade off in ballistics is more weight for less heat, which makes them "balanced". They do more damage, and etc.

In a light mech, you can't mount a heavy ballistics weapons (at least, not until lb5 comes, or another form light ballistics).

And also, you are trading dps for unlimited shots (in energy) and you gain dps, but have limited shots (ballistics).

I think they are balanced, because they have different roles.

And ac40 jaegger, well, that one has very low armor and surely a XL engine, a light mech would be able to backstabb the jaeger within seconds with no problem (aim to the rear side torso).

The problem was that 3 uac5 guys, that were very cheesy.

[Shadey99]

UnwantedProblem, on 18 September 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

And ac40 jaegger, well, that one has very low armor and surely a XL engine, a light mech would be able to backstabb the jaeger within seconds with no problem (aim to the rear side torso).

What XL engine...? AC40 Jager

[627]

with that engine you're slow and you have 10-14 points in the back.
low engine affect turning speed, too which is also low.

Yes you could get backstabbed by a jenner in 2-3 salvos

[Shadey99]

627, on 18 September 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

with that engine you're slow and you have 10-14 points in the back.
low engine affect turning speed, too which is also low.
Yes you could get backstabbed by a jenner in 2-3 salvos

2 issues with that...

1. I didn't really put the armor values where I would for a real standard engine build, it was a 30 second 'standard engine AC40' build for example purposes. I also didn't use a Jager variant I would usually use for that build.

2. Even if I left the rear armor the same I can make a point of simply standing in front of a hill so my back is basically unhittable. Any good player could and in fact is common practice for heavier mechs to keep from being circled...

Also ~62 kph isn't that slow. I routinely run 255 rated engines in my Jagers and that is 69.9 kph. I run Spiders, Cicadas, Catapults, Jagers, and Highlanders so I have a good idea of the strengths and weaknesses of multiple mechs...

Edited by Shadey99, 18 September 2013 - 08:54 AM.

[Veranova]

Shadey99, on 18 September 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

What XL engine...? AC40 Jager

That's also not a lot of ammo there either.
I run 5 tons on my Victor and that's just one AC20.
So I'd want to run 10-12 tons on this as it's my primary weapon.
XL is a must if you want to be in the game all match.

Edited by Veranova, 18 September 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Shadey99]

*Sigh* Should I repeat I made it in 30 seconds? And even with the ammo as is It can dish out 700 damage.An AC40 Jager is not a front line fighter, it is a 'turn a corner and get smashed' striker or a support to other mechs. ~40 shots is all it has to have.

Personally I've run XL AC40 Jagers just to test the effectiveness of dual 20s. I ran 8 tons of ammo and backup weapons. I never ran out of ammo and in fact had about half left over, so the quick build had about what I actually used in my few test runs...

[NRP]

Are people really surprised that everyone is favoring ballistics now? Between hotass maps, ghost heat, and individual weapon nerfs, energy builds have been nerfed to hell.

What else are we supposed to use, flamers?

[Nehkrosis]

Energy weapons are by no means nerfed to hell.
Wrongness.

[Veranova]

Shadey99, on 18 September 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

*Sigh* Should I repeat I made it in 30 seconds? And even with the ammo as is It can dish out 700 damage.An AC40 Jager is not a front line fighter, it is a 'turn a corner and get smashed' striker or a support to other mechs. ~40 shots is all it has to have.

Personally I've run XL AC40 Jagers just to test the effectiveness of dual 20s. I ran 8 tons of ammo and backup weapons. I never ran out of ammo and in fact had about half left over, so the quick build had about what I actually used in my few test runs...

The first two points I agree were moot and irelevent.
However I'm arguing that this build isn't a viable one due to its limited ammo, so it's not a great proof of concept that you can fit a Standard in there.

[Wolfways]

Veranova, on 18 September 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

Does anyone else feel that Ballistics are kinda the new cheese build?

I'm not saying they're massively OP.
But AC40 Jaegers are a force you don't want to contend with, within 400 metres.
UAC5's were the new meta for a while there, and now that's going to shift to AC2's which are arguably worse to have as a meta, because of their longer range and faster fire rate.
Energy weapons on the other hand are as usable as ever, but don't have the advantage of scaring the hell out of anyone getting hit by them.

This I feel is the major advantage Ballistics get. The fact they cause enemy mechs to shake, and often obscure their vision too. It breaks moral and makes aiming difficult.
Obviously a great tactical advantage, however these weapons can sustain a higher DPS than lasers on top of this, and ammo limitations don't seem too much of an issue as half your team is dead by the time ballistic builds run out and switch to secondaries..

What does everyone think?

I've been saying this for ages but hardly anybody seems to agree.
My advice is to just play with the OP ballistics (if you prefer ballistics) and enjoy the easy XP/C-Bills. And try a Jager with 2xAC2's, 2xAC5's, and 2xML's for backup.

[Karpundir]

I think balance is at an all time high right now. There is no singular OP weapon anymore and it comes down to more skill to get that DPS (holding targets with AC or lasers are important) and ability to spread damage across your mech and manage heat.

Once people get the gauss mechanic down, it could become the more powerful weapon thanks to the much improved Adv. Zoom, where you can actually pinpoint aim at range, provided you can allow for movement tracking at the same time.

I really hope to see X-pulse lasers in the game down the road, 'cause those would be a great alternative to ballistics for continuous DPS.

Edited by Karpundir, 18 September 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Shadey99]

Veranova, on 18 September 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

The first two points I agree were moot and irelevent.
However I'm arguing that this build isn't a viable one due to its limited ammo, so it's not a great proof of concept that you can fit a Standard in there.

Well this XL AC40 JM6-S is basically what I ran during my tests. This XL max ammo JM6-S is about all I'd be willing to strip off in terms of armor for one to max ammo. This Standard AC40 JM6-S is probably a slightly more optimized standard AC40 Jager. You just are not fitting 10 tons of ammo comfortably in a Jager, in fact the only way I could even squeeze 10 tons of ammo in was this 10 ton ammo JM6-S or the XL 11 ton ammo JM6-S. I however would not be caught dead running either of those.

Edited by Shadey99, 18 September 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Amsro, on 18 September 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Considering they are extremely heavy, ammo dependant (BOOM!) and either hot or fragile (gauss). It seems logical that these weapons are the highest damaging weapons.

SRM's 2.0 need a buff to compete better. The last of the major balance tweaks needed I think.

Some energy weapons need a bit of tweaking but at least they all have benefits over each other in someway that resembles balance. I still use PPC's and single ERPPC's but I also run Large Laser's, Mediums and Small Lasers all of them being useful in their builds. Pulse Lasers need a little bit of love to make them a worthy upgrade to regular lasers.

My energy only mechs don't seem to be at a disadvantage in matches.

Agreed.

I think they need to swap damage scale between SRM (2.0) and the SSRM (2.5) as SRMs do not get "auto-hit". This will become more obvious with Clan SSRM racks.

The other weapons, IMO in need of proper passes, are the Flamer (still useless) and the Large Pulse Laser (slightly less heat). The LPL was always a red headed step child, even in TT, as it's range to weight has always been hard to overcome when compared to PPCs and even standard (and cooler) Large Lasers.

I would LIKE them to return the sub-90 meter damage mechanic to PPCs, and maybe reduce ER PPC beat by 1, but neither are BAD where they currently are. (And I think the full heat on the ER PPC will be very important when the lighter Clan Tech one appears, doing 50% MORE damage).

And yes, I would actually still LIKE to see a PROPER UAC5 represented in the game with simple tap or double tap, not tap or full auto burst. (Again, the difference will become very apparent with Clan versions. Does anyone REALLY wan't to be on the receiving end of a 5-7 round burst from a UAC 20, or TWO?!?!?!?!. Also, the current UACs mimic the RAC from later Btech lore, meaning either the RAC will be OP as heck or unrecognizable)

And I would like NARCS hit points buffed. They are actually pretty handy if you know how to use them and have a good 4 man with LRMs going, but they get destroyed easy. That Said, for all the haters saying they are worthless, why you run so fast when the NARC hits ya and you see 100 plus LRMS coming over the horizon then?

But just fixing the SRM/SSRM dynamic, Large Pulse and Flamers would put the CURRENT game in a pretty good weapon balance place.

Just my 2ct.

[Highlet]

Shadey99, on 18 September 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

What XL engine...? AC40 Jager

How many matches does 35 rounds get you through?

[Shadey99]

Highlet, on 18 September 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

How many matches does 35 rounds get you through?

Um... Do you mean 'engagements'? The end of a match includes re-arming... If you mean 'engagement' then it can deal 700 damage figuring you hit with each round. If you have good aim you can mess up an enemy mech in 1 shot (headshot). If not you can take out a enemy Jager by shooting it in the torso 3-4 times or if it's an XL go for the side torso and that's 2-3 shots. It's even less shots from behind at 1-2.