52 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

What they need is a tonnage reduction. Given as that won't happen, we need to hack them into something worthwhile as best as possible.

Currently they pay a fair amount of tonnage, and range, and heat for a sorter beamtime and a tad more damage.

Right off the bat, one of those downsides needs to go, or the advantages need a big boost. Tonnage is a sacred cow, and heat is difficult for PGI to baseline properly. Ergo, matching their range to that of standard lasers would mean you're paying a ton and some heat for the improved damage profile. That's probably sufficient, and the remaining numbers are easily modifiable.

[stalima]

another solution to make pulse lasers more desirable is to actually nerf standard lasers, particularly the beam duration on them. part of the reason why pulse lasers arent often used is because large lasers dont really have that much more beam duration than them while also providing a massive increase to their range.

there is a fair bit of explaining as to why this would make alot more sense but just a quick summary:

-longer beam would make standard lasers less effective vs faster targets and less effective when used by faster mechs while still being strong against slower mechs.

-currently an ER large laser pretty much the go-to alternative to a PPC being better in almost every way... ppc should be used for fast damage alpha not ER large lasers.

-right now there is almost no difference between a small pulse laser and standard small laser except pulse being double the weight


in addition to a standard laser duration nerf, a slight ballistic weapon projectile speed nerf may also be in order, big cannons for destroying big mechs etc... sometimes the easiest buff to something is just to nerf everything else in comparison in slight ways but anyway, im pretty sure pulse lasers are the ones that are supposed to be the go-to weapon when charging around at 150kph or when shooting at them rather than large standard lasers being to hit just fine at those speeds

Edited by stalima, 19 September 2013 - 07:55 AM.

[The Boz]

I voted "other" for all because reasons.

My idea:

The goal is to turn them into good, reliable brawling weapons that are effective against all targets. All targets includes lights, so some functionality needs to change to make that happen. To make them effective at efficient and economical damage dealing under pressure, they need to be accurate, and not phased much by moving targets or the mech's own maneuvering.
In order to attain those goals, I put forth the following idea.
Shooting a pulse laser generates a transparent beam, not unlike that of a TAG laser. The beam has a minimum "identification" time of 0.15 seconds and a maximum "scan" time of 0.9 seconds. If at any time during that interval the beam intersects with the body of an enemy mech, the weapon immediately fires one pulse. The pulse is instant (no beam duration) and hitscan (no flight time), dealing the weapon's full damage in one packet. Only the actual firing of the pulse laser generates heat; the TAG-like beam does not. Upon firing the beam or missing the window, the weapon goes on a full cooldown.
Advantages:
1. Tripwire functionality against light mechs.
2. No damage spread caused by beam duration.
3. Identification beam prevents friendly fire.
4. No heat generation on missing a shot.
The overall DPS of this weapon should be comparable to that of a normal laser of the same size (if used optimally), but with much less DPT and slightly less DPH. The range should be limited to short; the current SPL and MPL are at the right place, the LPL needs to be slightly nerfed in that regard.
Doing this will ensure that the pulse lasers have a viable niche (close range brawling), but they don't encroach on to other energy weapons' territories.

Anyone like?

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 19 September 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

I voted "other" for all because reasons.

My idea:

The goal is to turn them into good, reliable brawling weapons that are effective against all targets. All targets includes lights, so some functionality needs to change to make that happen. To make them effective at efficient and economical damage dealing under pressure, they need to be accurate, and not phased much by moving targets or the mech's own maneuvering.
In order to attain those goals, I put forth the following idea.
Shooting a pulse laser generates a transparent beam, not unlike that of a TAG laser. The beam has a minimum "identification" time of 0.15 seconds and a maximum "scan" time of 0.9 seconds. If at any time during that interval the beam intersects with the body of an enemy mech, the weapon immediately fires one pulse. The pulse is instant (no beam duration) and hitscan (no flight time), dealing the weapon's full damage in one packet. Only the actual firing of the pulse laser generates heat; the TAG-like beam does not. Upon firing the beam or missing the window, the weapon goes on a full cooldown.
Advantages:
1. Tripwire functionality against light mechs.
2. No damage spread caused by beam duration.
3. Identification beam prevents friendly fire.
4. No heat generation on missing a shot.
The overall DPS of this weapon should be comparable to that of a normal laser of the same size (if used optimally), but with much less DPT and slightly less DPH. The range should be limited to short; the current SPL and MPL are at the right place, the LPL needs to be slightly nerfed in that regard.
Doing this will ensure that the pulse lasers have a viable niche (close range brawling), but they don't encroach on to other energy weapons' territories.

Anyone like?

ridiculously op

suddenly it's pinpoint damage and far less heat due to your plan.

Nope.

[Felio]

I would also say the large and medium pulses are too heavy.

[tigerija]

Pulse lasers should probably have shorter range because we do not want LPL and LL being same.

I think that current problem is that LL are more effecient at short range than LPL.

LPL have more damage but also weight more and they heat faster (also because they have faster fire rate). So they are not effecient. If you are able to get in close range you should benefit with short range weapons against long range ones.

[The Boz]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

ridiculously op

suddenly it's pinpoint damage and far less heat due to your plan.

Nope.

1. Why should it not be pinpoint damage with laughably low range?
2. It's only less heat if you keep missing. Per damage delivered it is still more heat than comparable lasers. That's what DPH stands for: Damage Per Heat.

Edited by The Boz, 19 September 2013 - 10:16 AM.

[Kissamies]

Carlyle, on 19 September 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

In close combat MMP are the best weapon (TT, solaris rules), as they have a -2 Modifier on the hit chance (you need to roll -2 at
2W6, which is a lot). The problem is to implement that in MWO, one option would be a way of little auto-aim/aim support (maybe if the enemy is within a circle around the crosshair they they will hit one zone of the enemy, or increase the radius they hit.

The TT implies that the standard lasers are instant burst or close so, while the pulses are more continuous weapons, which allows the gunner to adjust fire. We are never going to get them to change all the lasers to comform that this late in the development, so I think the "making it easier to hit" idea shouldn't be pursued. The Boz's idea is interesting, though.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 19 September 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

1. Why should it not be pinpoint damage with laughably low range?
2. It's only less heat if you keep missing. Per damage delivered it is still more heat than comparable lasers. That's what DPH stands for: Damage Per Heat.

yes, except now you can pray n spray and never have to look back, as there is no wasted heat, ever, unlike every other weapon in the game. You take a lot of the skill out of it, because now you just whoosh your mouse all over the screen and when you happen to cross the path of another mech, ZOT, insta pinpoint, especially since you list no "cooldown" between attempts (and why not, after all a TAG generates no heat, so no cooldown) so a person ca simply keep clicking, or set a macro to set a new click ever .9 seconds.

Especially in light mechs, who generally are not worried about causing friendly fire issues, all one now does is set those 6 pulse lasers on their Jenner to a macro, and go hunting. Circle of death, you now end up with a weapon that makes the old SSRM look weak at scout killing.

Not to mention adding many more layers of complication to the coding, when in real world, a simple slight reduction in heat fixes most of the issues. (In the case of the Large Pulse, maybe a moderate reduction in heat, because for their use, and weight, they are laughably short range)

[Carnelian]

Slightly lower duration, slightly higher damage. No need go all PGI on the weapons.

[The Boz]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

yes, except now you can pray n spray and never have to look back, as there is no wasted heat, ever, unlike every other weapon in the game. You take a lot of the skill out of it, because now you just whoosh your mouse all over the screen and when you happen to cross the path of another mech, ZOT, insta pinpoint, especially since you list no "cooldown" between attempts (and why not, after all a TAG generates no heat, so no cooldown) so a person ca simply keep clicking, or set a macro to set a new click ever .9 seconds.

I actually DID list cooldown between attempts.
"Upon firing the beam or missing the window, the weapon goes on a full cooldown."
See? It totally lists a cooldown. If you use the beam and it doesn't get intersected, weapon goes through cooldown as if it had fired.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Especially in light mechs, who generally are not worried about causing friendly fire issues, all one now does is set those 6 pulse lasers on their Jenner to a macro, and go hunting. Circle of death, you now end up with a weapon that makes the old SSRM look weak at scout killing.

Wrong. See above.

Bishop Steiner, on 19 September 2013 - 10:45 AM, said:

Not to mention adding many more layers of complication to the coding, when in real world, a simple slight reduction in heat fixes most of the issues. (In the case of the Large Pulse, maybe a moderate reduction in heat, because for their use, and weight, they are laughably short range)

The weapon still has no PURPOSE. I'm not going to sacrifice 50% of range, 50% of weight and 20% of heat for a 10% damage increase, that is ridiculous!

[NRP]

While I'm generally of the opinion that heat is too high in general in MWO, I went with the "range is too short" option.

Because I like to change it up every once in a while.

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 19 September 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

I actually DID list cooldown between attempts.
"Upon firing the beam or missing the window, the weapon goes on a full cooldown."
See? It totally lists a cooldown. If you use the beam and it doesn't get intersected, weapon goes through cooldown as if it had fired.



Wrong. See above.


The weapon still has no PURPOSE. I'm not going to sacrifice 50% of range, 50% of weight and 20% of heat for a 10% damage increase, that is ridiculous!

and shorter beam duration, and shorter cooldown. From large lasers.

[Wolfways]

Felio, on 19 September 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I would also say the large and medium pulses are too heavy.

I didn't add weight/crit slot choices because (imo) changing those from their original stats would probably cause a huge mess, especially taking stock mechs into account.

[Aluminumfoiled]

It's all about the range for me. Voted so on all three even though I bought a Spulse and don't remember ever using it. Extra heat and wt and shorter range is how I always thought of them but with a faster recycle time than in MWO.

LPL is has a high opportunity cost for only 600m.

[Simbacca]

My only complaint is with the Large Pulse Lasers - they run just too hot.

My suggestion:
Reduce damage from 10.6 to 10.5, and drop heat from 8.5 to 7.5.

[King Picollo]

Range, i use LPL's because they match range with AC20 which i use most. But i won't take MPL's because the range is just too short where the standard ML's are sit perfectly.

[Miss Hannigan]

I dont comment much but pulse lasers have bugged me since i started playing this game. They need to totally re-work them. I dont care about heat or range. Pulse lasers should work more like machine guns with heat. each bolt would do some damage with over all dps identical to what they are now. This would give them something unique and would not hurt overall balance. They shouldnt be regular lasers with shorter cooldown and beam duration, they shouldnt be a beam at all.

just to add an: im thinking more inline with a ppc but with much higher fire rate and much lower damage per bolt.

Edited by Dephik8, 03 October 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Fut]

Alistair Winter, on 18 September 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

It's the heat. The heat of the pulse lasers is now so high that it's basically impossible to combine them with anything except maybe MGs and AC5s. Anything more than that, and your mech bursts into flames as soon as you power up.

Try firing your weapons in smaller groups, or individually.
Seriously, too many people play this game like there's only one trigger in the Mechs.

[Rowanas]

I've got to say that the reason I don't like the Pulse line is simply because they're even more inefficient than regular lasers. We're already talking about the weapon line with the worst heat/damage ratio, and the Pulse variations are just horrendous. When I need to do all my damage in one go, I turn to SRMs, because all the damage happens at once. Sure, it's spread out a bit at distance, but at least you hit, and you can keep firing those suckers as long as the ammo holds out.

I would support a move to reduce Pulse laser range in return for a bigger damage payoff, because then they could really pull their weight on shoot-and-scoot light mechs, or as last ditch defences on heavier mechs. They're missing one of the major features from TT because of the way lasers have been implemented, and something desperately needs to be done if i'm ever going to mount one. I'm a one-shot laser nut and Pulse weapons are unappealing even to me.