24 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

OK so as things sit NOW, today, the UAC and the Streaks feel pretty good. SRMs generally are felt to need a buff, especially in light of hit detection issues.

That said, the problem is that Gamers, and yes, even Devs often fall into a trap of becoming myopic. Feeling balanced NOW, does not actually equate to BEING balanced, and as has been demonstrated over the last year, usually that approach leads to a constant yo-yo of Nerf and Buff.

Here are the Issues, as I see them:

THE ULTRA-AUTOCANNON;
On the surface, aside from some QQing from the usual suspects about having their EZMode button removed, post patch, the UACs are in a pretty good place, very effective, but not OP. Problem is, this is an ILLUSION.

Why?

Simple. Shortly (in theory, but work with me here) we will be having the Clans. They too have UACs. Not just UAC5s, but 2s, 10s and 20s. Now ask yourself this: IF you didn't enjoy being on the receiving end of triple UAC5s for the last week, how will you feel about Mechs carrying 1-2 UAC10s or 20s, firing off burst of 4-7 rounds EACH before jamming? (and eventually, the Inner Sphere develops their own versions)

Oh, and they will weigh less and take up less critical space, to boot, so yay, more ammo!

So, at that point, PGI will either tweak jam rates for each individually, in a stream of yo-yo nerf/buffs, as has been their pattern, or add them to their much beloved "Ghost Heat" scales. A more sensible and proactive solution, would be to actually return UACs to the design they were intended to be from the start, which is an improved version of the Autocannon, able to fire double taps for emergency use in sticky situations, but at the risk of jamming. Yes, UACs were NEVER meant to be continuous burst fire weapons!!!! They were always meant to be used as normal ACs with an emergency double-tap!

So return them to that, PGI. Allow them to function in all regards like an AC, but if you double tap the trigger, it fires twice, with attendant jam chance, and then follows the normal cooldown rules for an AC5.

Not only is this important in light of keeping Clan UACs from getting ridiculous, but it also is keeping in mind that in the future, there will also be ROTARY AUTOCANNONS, which actually do function essentially the way the MW:O UACs do right now.

Think about it, please.

Similarly, the SRM/SSRM PARADIGM;
Again, right now, having SSRMs doing 2.5 damage per missile seems hunky dory. Thing is, their ammo has the exact same number of shots per ton as the normal SRM, which do 2.0 per missile. No big deal, after all, you only get TWO SSRM, while SRM Launchers can fire 2-4 or even 6 missiles. But those missiles don't get to "Auto-hit", either. And generally they are very ammo inefficient compared to SSRMs because of that.

And again, the future: Clans have SSRM4, and SSRM6. That's 4-6 missiles, doing 2.5 each, that for all practical purposes, don't miss, and don't waste ammo. For the same weight as Inner Sphere dumbfire SRMs. (and again, eventually, the Inner Sphere recreates their own version).

Common sense approach would be to swap the damage numbers, allowing dumbfire SRMs to be the bludgeon, doing 2.5 damage per missile, whereas the same weight projectile SSRM, being the "elegant" fire and forget missile, gets the 2.0 per missile damage.

IN SUMMATION:

While PGI has had a lot on their plate trying to essentially re-code the Cryengine to make it work, the most consistent in-game balance issue has been short sighted balance attempts that deal with the NOW, instead of the big picture. The first step in weapons should have been to balance, then set in stone, all the basic level 1 weapons, and then introduced, and balanced, the second generation (Gauss, DHS, XL engines, Endo, Ferro, LB-10X, Pulse Lasers, ER Weapons, UACs) AROUND those existing weapon models. Instead, in an apparent rush to add content, we had new tech added before the game had a base line, and we have seen a constant stream of buff and nerfs since then. Instead of continuing to follow this very inefficient model, please PGI, instead of having knee-jerk "fixes" based on Forum QQ, please take a Big Picture look, have a solid game plan, and stick to it, making less, and less radical balance swings along the way, going into the future.

TL;DR... too bad. Don't have time to read it, don't waste our time commenting, either. K? Thanks.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 September 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

That's a common suggestion for fixing UACs long-term, and would not be bad.

My preference is to make UACs function entirely differently from standard ACs. Have them fire one shell per rating, at 1 damage per shell, and give them a cool down a good bit shorter than the standard version. Total dps would thus be quite high, but damage would not be concentrated unless the enemy is standing really still or you're really accurate. Remove jamming altogether and rely on lower ammo count and damage-over-time performance (along with sacrifices in weight and space) to balance them with standard ACs.

SSRMs and SRMs are in a rough spot for long-term balance. SSRMs I think will be fine, due to the new tracking mechanic. Even large numbers of SSRMs will have trouble focusing targets down efficiently. If they do prove to be too strong, then increase their reload time. This would lower their dps and would be a value that'd be very easy to tweak to bring them in to line with the standard SRMs and other brawling weapons.

As for SRMs, until hit registration is working smoothly for them (it seems improved, but still not as good as other weapons), then we can see what happens. I suspect they might see another damage boost (2.5 each) to match them to SSRMs (or a damage reduction on SSRMs to match SRMs if they prove to be too strong in larger launcher sizes). The new spread pattern (only a couple months old IIRC) really limits their ability to concentrate damage, with Artemis being necessary for real accuracy with them (which is very expensive for SRMs). I like the pattern, but think that it should enable PGI to boost the damage to 2.5 (especially since bugged splash damage has apparently been dealt with).

Edit - If you think that makes UACs and RACs too similar, don't worry. RACs would be continuous-fire with a "jam" meter that fills up the more you shoot, and would fire 5-damage slugs rather than a burst of 1-damage slugs. This would make them behave very differently from each other.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 18 September 2013 - 01:23 PM.

[FupDup]

UACs ought to just be done MW:LL style and gotten over with. Bursts should be broken up into multiple shells each (not one shell like we have now), and jamming should be handled by a "heat bar" or whatever you want to call it that you can push to the extreme in a desperate situation or ride the wave when time doesn't matter so much. Even after the nerf, the RNG gods sometimes let you go full-auto for quite a few bursts and at other times it only lets you get in a single double-tap. It's just too inconsistent.


Streak SRMs need to be manually aimed (flying towards the targeted location when fired) instead of the current system of the game deciding where you hit. Before the nerf, they were an aimbot that was too accurate (against the CT). After the nerf, they are still an aimbot that is now not accurate enough in most cases (although they are certainly good at farming damage for C-Bills, they're not that great at actual killing outside of lights and sometimes mediums). Making them manual aim solves both the too accurate and not accurate enough issues in one swoop and increases the skill floor nicely.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 18 September 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

UACs ought to just be done MW:LL style and gotten over with. Bursts should be broken up into multiple shells each (not one shell like we have now), and jamming should be handled by a "heat bar" or whatever you want to call it that you can push to the extreme in a desperate situation or ride the wave when time doesn't matter so much. Even after the nerf, the RNG gods sometimes let you go full-auto for quite a few bursts and at other times it only lets you get in a single double-tap. It's just too inconsistent.


Streak SRMs need to be manually aimed (flying towards the targeted location when fired) instead of the current system of the game deciding where you hit. Before the nerf, they were an aimbot that was too accurate (against the CT). After the nerf, they are still an aimbot that is now not accurate enough in most cases (although they are certainly good at farming damage for C-Bills, they're not that great at actual killing outside of lights and sometimes mediums). Making them manual aim solves both the too accurate and not accurate enough issues in one swoop and increases the skill floor nicely.

I dislike "heat bars" as much as you do "random".

Fact is though, when pushing machinery beyond it's design parameters, we only know approximately when we are going too far. Part of the reason I listed this is again, one needs to thin k of what the weapon was designed to be, and also near future versions. Burst versions of a UAC20 just are NOT acceptable. And it makes sense to have one mechanic cover an entire family of weapons, then having to find ways, and add new mechanics (see "ghost heat" and "gauss charge" for examples) and making things evenmore complex, then they are now.

No offense, but I consider "heat bar" jam machines to be console easy mode ideas. The UAC was never intended to be burst fired all the time,and they should not make it so now.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

I dislike "heat bars" as much as you do "random".

Fact is though, when pushing machinery beyond it's design parameters, we only know approximately when we are going too far. Part of the reason I listed this is again, one needs to thin k of what the weapon was designed to be, and also near future versions. Burst versions of a UAC20 just are NOT acceptable. And it makes sense to have one mechanic cover an entire family of weapons, then having to find ways, and add new mechanics (see "ghost heat" and "gauss charge" for examples) and making things evenmore complex, then they are now.

No offense, but I consider "heat bar" jam machines to be console easy mode ideas. The UAC was never intended to be burst fired all the time,and they should not make it so now.

The thing is, the current UAC does allow the double-tap to be fired many times in a row like a machine gun if you get lucky. Other times you are only allowed one double-tap before getting jammed up. That's the problem. The way they behave is entirely dependent on the game's whim and not how the shooter uses them. If you keep the random jam, it's always going to allow for huge bursts (when the stars align). Of course my own suggestion doesn't get rid of bursts either, but it does stop the larger UACs from exploiting convergence too strongly.


In the case of the UAC20, it would not fire a single 20-point shell. I dunno how many it would be broken down into, but it would probably have no fewer than ~4-6 shells (for a total of 20 damage in the end) to prevent it from concentrating too much damage into one spot (but still dealing massive overall damage).

Edited by FupDup, 18 September 2013 - 01:52 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 18 September 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

The thing is, the current UAC does allow the double-tap to be fired many times in a row like a machine gun if you get lucky. Other times you are only allowed one double-tap before getting jammed up. That's the problem. The way they behave is entirely dependent on the game's whim and not how the shooter uses them. If you keep the random jam, it's always going to allow for huge bursts (when the stars align). Of course my own suggestion doesn't get rid of bursts either, but it does stop the larger UACs from exploiting convergence too strongly.


In the case of the UAC20, it would not fire a single 20-point shell. I dunno how many it would be broken down into, but it would probably have no fewer than ~8 shells (for a total of 20 damage in the end) to prevent it from concentrating too much damage into one spot (but still dealing massive overall damage).

Fup READ the post, man. NO, it will not allow for huge burst.

A UAC should be able to 1) SINGLE FIRE, or 2) with a double tap, DOUBLE FIRE, after which it has to go through the same exact 1.5 second cooldown the AC5 does (1.5 seconds).

Hence you get either 5 damage, 1.5 second cooldown, 5 damage, or one could get 10 damage, followed by a 1.5 second cooldown, but with a small chance (9-10%) of getting a stovepipe jam, and needing a 5 second cooldown to unjam it.


That means one cannot, ever, get continued bursts, period, which is exactly they way a UAC is supposed to function. It is an AC5 which can be PUSHED to double shot, if needed.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Fup READ the post, man. NO, it will not allow for huge burst.

A UAC should be able to 1) SINGLE FIRE, or 2) with a double tap, DOUBLE FIRE, after which it has to go through the same exact 1.5 second cooldown the AC5 does (1.5 seconds).

Hence you get either 5 damage, 1.5 second cooldown, 5 damage, or one could get 10 damage, followed by a 1.5 second cooldown, but with a small chance (9-10%) of getting a stovepipe jam, and needing a 5 second cooldown to unjam it.


That means one cannot, ever, get continued bursts, period, which is exactly they way a UAC is supposed to function. It is an AC5 which can be PUSHED to double shot, if needed.

I should specify what I'm meaning by the current UAC allowing for "bursts." If you don't jam after the first double-tap, that means you can fire another double-tap after the 1.5 second reload. If you manage to not jam after that, then the cycle of double-tapping every 1.5 seconds can be rinsed and repeated as necessary until you do get jammed or one needs to take cover from fire or whatever else. Firing twice every 1.5 seconds (assuming you don't get jammed) is pretty fast in my book and I count that as "bursts." And we've seen from the UAC5 buff that even just a 15% jam rate makes the situation pretty obnoxious with how much you can fire before getting jammed.

Edited by FupDup, 18 September 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

OK so as things sit NOW, today, the UAC and the Streaks feel pretty good. SRMs generally are felt to need a buff, especially in light of hit detection issues.

That said, the problem is that Gamers, and yes, even Devs often fall into a trap of becoming myopic. Feeling balanced NOW, does not actually equate to BEING balanced, and as has been demonstrated over the last year, usually that approach leads to a constant yo-yo of Nerf and Buff.

Here are the Issues, as I see them:

THE ULTRA-AUTOCANNON;
On the surface, aside from some QQing from the usual suspects about having their EZMode button removed, post patch, the UACs are in a pretty good place, very effective, but not OP. Problem is, this is an ILLUSION.

Why?

Simple. Shortly (in theory, but work with me here) we will be having the Clans. They too have UACs. Not just UAC5s, but 2s, 10s and 20s. Now ask yourself this: IF you didn't enjoy being on the receiving end of triple UAC5s for the last weak, how will you feel about Mechs carrying 1-2 UAC10s or 20s, firing off burst of 4-7 rounds EACH before jamming? (and eventually, the Inner Sphere develops their own versions)

Oh, and they will weigh less and take up less critical space, to boot, so yay, more ammo!

So, at that point, PGI will either tweak jam rates for each individually, in a stream of yo-yo nerf/buffs, as has been their pattern, or add them to their much beloved "Ghost Heat" scales. A more sensible and proactive solution, would be to actually return UACs to the design they were intended to be from the start, which is an improved version of the Autocannon, able to fire double taps for emergency use in sticky situations, but at the risk of jamming. Yes, UACs were NEVER meant to be continuous burst fire weapons!!!! They were always meant to be used as normal ACs with an emergency double-tap!

So return them to that, PGI. Allow them to function in all regards like an AC, but if you double tap the trigger, it fires twice, with attendant jam chance, and then follows the normal cooldown rules for an AC5.

Not only is thin important in light of keeping Clan UACs from getting ridiculous, but it also is keeping in mind that in the future, there will also be ROTARY AUTOCANNONS, which actually do function essentially the way the MW:O UACs do right now.

Think about, please.

Similarly, the SRM/SSRM PARADIGM;
Again, right now, having SSRMs doing 2.5 damage per missile seems hunky dory. Thing is, their ammo has the exact same number of shots per ton as the normal SRM, which do 2.0 per missile. No big deal, after all, you only get TWO SSRM, while SRM Launchers can fire 2-4 or even 6 missiles. But those missiles don't get to "Auto-hit", either. And generally they are very ammo inefficient compared to SSRMs because of that.

And again, the future: Clans have SSRM4, and SSRM6. That's 4-6 missiles, doing 2.5 each, that for all practical purposes, don't miss, and don't waste ammo. For the same eight as Inner Sphere dumbfire SRMs. (and again, eventually, the Inner Sphere recreates their own version).

Common sense approach would be to swap the damage numbers, allowing dumbfire SRMs to be the bludgeon, doing 2.5 damage per missile, whereas the same weight projectile SSRM, being the "elegant" fire and forget missile, gets the 2.0 per missile damage.

In SUMMATION:

While PGI has had a lot on their plate trying to essentially re-code the Cryengine to make it work, the most consistent in-game balance issue has been short sighted balance attempts that deal with the NOW, instead of the big picture. The first step in weapons should have been to balance, then set in stone, all the basic level 1 weapons, and then introduced, and balanced, the second generation (Gauss, DHS, XL engines, Endo, Ferro, LB-10X, Pulse Lasers, ER Weapons, UACs) AROUND those existing weapon models. Instead, in an apparent rush to add content, we had new tech added before the game had a base line, and we have seen a constant stream of buff and nerfs since then. Instead of continuing to follow this very inefficient model, please PGI, instead of having knee-jerk "fixes" based on Forum QQ, please take a Big Picture look, have a solid game plan, and stick to it, making less, and less radical balance swings along the way, going into the future.

TL;DR... too bad. Don't have time to read it, don't waste our time commenting, either. K? Thanks.

You got soooo lucky on the streak topic Bishop. I almost unfriended you . I do want to disagree a tad though. I guess its safe to say that my two weapons of choice are medium lasers and SRM's. I'm fine with the SRM's damage. Not so much the streaks though. I would like to see them at 1.5 because like you pointed out big brothers coming. Also they should be used about as much at SRM 2's which have a higher probability of missing.

Now for my biggest complaint about the whole thing. All of this balance etc., etc. is fine lock in UAC timing jamming now so when the other varients are out they have something to go buy. People have said don't worry when streak 6's come out they'll lower the damage. Wait what??? This games needs immersion; Not dialing back 6 months - year later when the tech becomes availeble. If people aren't using a streak 2 its because well its a streak 2 and not a streak 6. Same goes for UAC PPC and Guass. People complaining about ERPPC and PPC heat are silly. Soon you'll be able to put twice as many heat sinks in your mech. Making cooling a lot more efficent. To boot a Clan ERPPC as long as they stay consistent (Hopefully) Will give you 15 damage. Sorry IS tech is 15 its less effective suck it up or don't use it (I still do). Just remember big brother will be coming.

[Bishop Steiner]

PropagandaWar, on 18 September 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

You got soooo lucky on the streak topic Bishop. I almost unfriended you . I do want to disagree a tad though. I guess its safe to say that my two weapons of choice are medium lasers and SRM's. I'm fine with the SRM's damage. Not so much the streaks though. I would like to see them at 1.5 because like you pointed out big brothers coming. Also they should be used about as much at SRM 2's which have a higher probability of missing.

Now for my biggest complaint about the whole thing. All of this balance etc., etc. is fine lock in UAC timing jamming now so when the other varients are out they have something to go buy. People have said don't worry when streak 6's come out they'll lower the damage. Wait what??? This games needs immersion; Not dialing back 6 months - year later when the tech becomes availeble. If people aren't using a streak 2 its because well its a streak 2 and not a streak 6. Same goes for UAC PPC and Guass. People complaining about ERPPC and PPC heat are silly. Soon you'll be able to put twice as many heat sinks in your mech. Making cooling a lot more efficent. To boot a Clan ERPPC as long as they stay consistent (Hopefully) Will give you 15 damage. Sorry IS tech is 15 its less effective suck it up or don't use it (I still do). Just remember big brother will be coming.

I actually agree, to a degree on the SRM/SSRM damage.

But I don't find the 2.5 OP, especially with the ridiculous spread, and limited range, not to mention ammo consumption, of SRMS. Also, with the autohit/spread to heck though mechanic of SSRM, I do feel that a return to 1.5 (which was my stance when they auto-homed the CT) might be too much. Of course, why they can't simply have them autohome to whatever hitbox (barring obstacles) the reticle was aimed on when fired, IDK. (Aka, if your pipper was on the mechs arm when you fired, they go to the arm) Add a small modicum of spread (like half the spread of current SRMS maybe) and bang.

[Morikuro]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

OK so as things sit NOW, today, the UAC and the Streaks feel pretty good. SRMs generally are felt to need a buff, especially in light of hit detection issues.

That said, the problem is that Gamers, and yes, even Devs often fall into a trap of becoming myopic. Feeling balanced NOW, does not actually equate to BEING balanced, and as has been demonstrated over the last year, usually that approach leads to a constant yo-yo of Nerf and Buff.

Yep. There is a ton of content that will flow into the game if it lives long enough, so the balance should be set up with that in mind. Or we could have future balance that acts like this. I know, it's kind of like that now, but that is something that PGI ought to strive to avoid.

[Bishop Steiner]

Morikuro, on 18 September 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Yep. There is a ton of content that will flow into the game if it lives long enough, so the balance should be set up with that in mind. Or we could have future balance that acts like this. I know, it's kind of like that now, but that is something that PGI ought to strive to avoid.

current PGI balance as it appears to the player base:

[PropagandaWar]

Yeah but if they are putting PPCS heat to approriate levels. Putting UAC Reload at AC/5 times I think its fair. Maybe do a 1.75 for streaks.

[Bishop Steiner]

PropagandaWar, on 18 September 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

Yeah but if they are putting PPCS heat to approriate levels. Putting UAC Reload at AC/5 times I think its fair. Maybe do a 1.75 for streaks.

well, PPC/ER PPC are another story, along with a few other things, but I figured my post wasn't getting sorta long already.

PPC I am mostly OK with now, though I feel the sub 90 meter damage should be restored (they could hit you under 90 meters in TT, just harder to hit. The reduced damage I was OK under 90 I was OK with) I feel for IS ER PPC, they might, for balance purposes be a LITTLE too hot, so would like to see a 1 pt heat reduction. And then Clan ER PPC should absolutely be the full 15, since they also do 15 damage (and weight less/less crits)

[PropagandaWar]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

well, PPC/ER PPC are another story, along with a few other things, but I figured my post wasn't getting sorta long already.

PPC I am mostly OK with now, though I feel the sub 90 meter damage should be restored (they could hit you under 90 meters in TT, just harder to hit. The reduced damage I was OK under 90 I was OK with) I feel for IS ER PPC, they might, for balance purposes be a LITTLE too hot, so would like to see a 1 pt heat reduction. And then Clan ER PPC should absolutely be the full 15, since they also do 15 damage (and weight less/less crits)

yeah but with erPPCs you have a more effective weapon than a AC 20 with the only downside being heat. Weighs less, takes less crit, disables ecm, and shoots twice as far.

As to standard PPC's less than 90 meters it would be cool if all mechs in area received splash damage.

Edited by PropagandaWar, 18 September 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

PropagandaWar, on 18 September 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

yeah but with erPPCs you have a more effective weapon than a AC 20 with the only downside being heat. Weighs less, takes less crit, disables ecm, and shoots twice as far.

As to standard PPC's less than 90 meters it would be cool if all mechs in area received splash damage.

I do not deny that. But try running two of them. They should be hot yes, but they are nearly impossible to maintain any level of fire with. Not talking about spamming the sky with 3-4, but just using two. A heavy mech should be able to maintain reasonable fire levels using them (as long as not using secondary weapons) with 18 or so DHS. Again, not spam, but just decent fire rate. I can do so with standard PPC with 12-14 DHS. An Assault mech should be able to use two pretty effectively. They really can't. And the poor Awesome, might as well forget it. Even without Ghost heat, a 3rd is just pointless on the guy. It has trouble running 3 standard PPC, something it was designed to do with SHS while running 21 DHS!

The low weight and no ammo vs range is valid, but it cannot mount enough DHS to actually come close to balancing the DHS to other similar ranged weapons. I am actually better served in match with dual AC10, having nearly the same range, as it is far easier to pack enough ammo to last a match than tying to find room for heat sinks.

That said, I also don't desire a return to the previous PPC Spam meta, which is why I propose only a modest heat reduction in them. I don't want them to be "better" than a PPC or AC/10, but I do want to feel there is a good reason to decide to use them ove the other.

The range differences is not enough to comp for the heat over the standard PPC, IMO. Espeically since with the low projectile speed, extreme range is all but pointless now, and the PPC is enough cooler to make packing point defense weapons instead of more DHS viable.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 September 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[FireSlade]

I am with bishop on this, the UAC needs an overhaul big time. If you guys thought that "poptarts," PPCs, PPC+Gauss, etc. was bad just wait for the clans to come where mechs have more room for weapons, run cooler, and weapons are lighter comes into play. PGI has to follow those rules or they will invalidate a lot of stock designs and the only things they can really do is change how hot each weapon is, the rate of fire, and the damage. Basically the nightmare scenario is the clan UAC20 weights 12 tons and takes up 8 slots making it rather easy to fit 2-3 of them on an Omni-mech and fire off more than twice during cool down time like the current UAC5 does. 120-180 damage in less than 10 seconds would really suck in my opinion and that is only if 3 CUAC20s fire twice now add 60 damage to that 180 in the same timeframe and it gets worse.

With the SSRMs I would be happy if they did the same damage as SRMs but had less ammo due to them having the added weight + space needed for the computer systems and homing features. If they did less damage you would see them less due to the "I want more now," mindset that people have. On top of that even though the SSRM2 does more damage than the SRM2 in reality it does less damage to the spot that you are aiming at since they randomly choose the bone to hit.

PGI really does need to just sit down and come up with some real balancing solutions based off of current and future weapon plans; figure out how to keep them balance without overly complicated solutions (aka ghostheat); and push them through ignoring the complaints that will always come with change. If they can pull that off they will make their job easier, keep all the mechs/equipment as available options, and prevent the BS flavor of the month that we have had over the past year (kind of like WoW's talent trees) with less knee jerk balancing that ends up screwing other things up and creating the new metas that get abused.

[Bishop Steiner]

less ammo was another good idea for Streaks. I had toyed with that before too.

[PropagandaWar]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

I do not deny that. But try running two of them. They should be hot yes, but they are nearly impossible to maintain any level of fire with. Not talking about spamming the sky with 3-4, but just using two. A heavy mech should be able to maintain reasonable fire levels using them (as long as not using secondary weapons) with 18 or so DHS. Again, not spam, but just decent fire rate. I can do so with standard PPC with 12-14 DHS. An Assault mech should be able to use two pretty effectively. They really can't. And the poor Awesome, might as well forget it. Even without Ghost heat, a 3rd is just pointless on the guy. It has trouble running 3 standard PPC, something it was designed to do with SHS while running 21 DHS!

The low weight and no ammo vs range is valid, but it cannot mount enough DHS to actually come close to balancing the DHS to other similar ranged weapons. I am actually better served in match with dual AC10, having nearly the same range, as it is far easier to pack enough ammo to last a match than tying to find room for heat sinks.

That said, I also don't desire a return to the previous PPC Spam meta, which is why I propose only a modest heat reduction in them. I don't want them to be "better" than a PPC or AC/10, but I do want to feel there is a good reason to decide to use them ove the other.

The range differences is not enough to comp for the heat over the standard PPC, IMO. Espeically since with the low projectile speed, extreme range is all but pointless now, and the PPC is enough cooler to make packing point defense weapons instead of more DHS viable.

Just because its family night and I have to get off the forum lol (bad enough I ran some matches hehe). I think the ERPPC projectile speed needs to move back up. Its draw back should only be heat. To bad you couldn't calibrate your weapons to require a desired cool down so you couldn't fire them as quick to help with the heat dissipation.

[Bishop Steiner]

PropagandaWar, on 18 September 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Just because its family night and I have to get off the forum lol (bad enough I ran some matches hehe). I think the ERPPC projectile speed needs to move back up. Its draw back should only be heat. To bad you couldn't calibrate your weapons to require a desired cool down so you couldn't fire them as quick to help with the heat dissipation.

Maybe. Well, back to the actual topic... Ultra-Autocannons......

[FupDup]

I just remembered something. Assuming Bishy's system of double-tap fired instantly (instead of half-cooldown like current system) with ~10% jam chance, the UAC/20 would still be hilariously broken. If double-tapped, it would fire out 2 projectiles for 20 damage each, resulting in 40 damage almost instantly...from a weapon that weighs 12 tons and takes up 8 slots. That would be broken even with a jam rate of 100%...can you imagine an AC/80 heavy or assault mech? *Hides in a corner.*

Do not want.

Edited by FupDup, 20 September 2013 - 02:38 PM.