63 replies to this topic

[Grimm Peaper]

Something that has bugged me about mwo mechanics is "why is it that when you shoot a flying mech with a big ballistic, why aren't they knocked down or turned more than they would if they are on the ground?".

As it stands as it is now, they take the same shake as they would on the ground and that doesn't match physics. I suppose their JJ could auto stabilize, but they could not completely stabilize such a fast change in direction.

Having the jumping mech take more impulse shake when shot by ballistics while in mid flight might be a simpler solution to jump sniping than all the fancy ghost heat, gauss delay, and ppc heat nerfs they are trying to reduce the jump sniping or hell, even jump brawling for those that abuse HSR by jumping in a brawl.

It should be easiest to knock down light mechs or at the very least they should shake more. It would make alot more sense for assaults and heavies to knock down light mechs with their big ballistic guns rather than running into them using collision like it used to be or how some people keep demanding it be like. At the very least, the cockpit shake in a light mech should be much higher when hit by an ac20 than if an assault mech is hit. If you're going to make it so that heavies are penalized just moving around, you really should be fair the other way around when mechs are very light and thus take more cockpit shake.

PGI seems to bias things WAY too much in favor of light mechs. Russ said it himself, PGI is proud that they made the light mechs popular to pilot, becuase they weren't popular in previous editions of MW. Just personal opinion, but it seems like they biased that a little too far in the favor of light mechs. A lot of players are calling for a collisions to come back so that they can knock down light mechs. Knocking them down with your guns seems preferable than having players run them over.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Being able to knock down lights by collision would definitely reduce "hugging" (if you don't know, that's when the little ******** smush right up against you so you have trouble shooting them). At the same time, I don't think light pilots like the idea of being knocked down with guns, as speed is the only way to survive in a light. Right now HSR is still borked all to hell, and so we don't know how effective lights are going to be if they ever fix it or at least get it under control. Ravens and Jenners used to be much harder to hit than they are at present, so more people are going to Spiders, which are a troll right now because they often magically take little to no damage from shots that look like (and should be) direct hits. Combined with their small size and speed, this is a real problem. HOWEVER, if one stands still or you DO magically connect on a hit, you can pretty much blow a spider to pieces in one alpha, so whenever PGI gets them fixed, it's going to be a lot tougher to be a spider pilot. They won't be able to walk up to any lone assault mech with a decent pilot and waste it in a one on one battle like they can now. Light pilots that are accustomed to doing that are going to either scream bloody murder on the forums, or learn to seriously re-think their role and tactics when this happens. If HSR gets fixed, we may not need to be able to knock a light down with weapons at all to even the odds and deal with them. I guess to wrap up what I am trying to say: HSR is the cause of a lot of woes right now, and until it gets fixed and we see how that changes gameplay, a lot of other things can't be worked on.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 19 September 2013 - 04:03 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

I'd like to see this.

I'd also like to see light mechs have improved JJ's. Right now, my Jenner gets off the ground as slowly as my Catapult, it seems. I'd like to see every light mech with the JJ capability of a Spider.

So on the one hand, you could jump higher and farther, and on the other hand, you would be more likely to get swatted out of the sky.

[Mehlan]

lol how about the fact, you cannot change/modify direction when airborn, particularly the spider.

[Zerberus]

Mehlan, on 19 September 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

lol how about the fact, you cannot change/modify direction when airborn, particularly the spider.

....which would completely negate half of the canon and MWO purpose of even having jumpjets....

As far as knocking down mechs in flight not adhering to physics, it doesn`t adhere to HOLLYWOOD physics, but very much to realistic physics.

If you think a 285 pound shell (ac/20, to give you a fair chance) slamming into a 20 ton battlemech is going to somehow make the mech twist and gyrate like a spinning top, you are sorely mistaken. Airborne or not. The inertial mass of even the lightest mech just gobsmacks even the heaviest shells in game.

If you get hit with a baseball, does it spin you end over end, or does it just hurt? Does it spin you end over end when you`re in the air? Or does it still just hurt?

Edited by Zerberus, 19 September 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Pale Jackal]

Alistair Winter, on 19 September 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I'd also like to see light mechs have improved JJ's. Right now, my Jenner gets off the ground as slowly as my Catapult, it seems. I'd like to see every light mech with the JJ capability of a Spider.

While that might be a good gameplay decision, and may make lighter 'mechs more viable - and if that's the case, I'm in favor of it - but lighter 'mechs already have JJs that weigh less. A Jenner may weigh almost a third of a Highlander's weight, but their jump jets weigh a fourth of a Highlander's. I think additional JJs should have greater effect - I really struggle to find the benefit in adding a 3rd or 4th JJ. It gets you higher but doesn't seem to add any air time.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 19 September 2013 - 06:09 AM.

[Krivvan]

Mehlan, on 19 September 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

lol how about the fact, you cannot change/modify direction when airborn, particularly the spider.

That's one of my favourite parts about the current JJ mechanics. You require a modicum of skill and thought to understand when and where to use JJ. Using them to just jump high leads to death. It gives JJ advantages and disadvantages. I'd rather not have skating JJs a la Mechwarrior 2.

[AlexEss]

Mehlan, on 19 September 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:

lol how about the fact, you cannot change/modify direction when airborn, particularly the spider.

You do not change direction to well mid-jump either. =P

Jumptjets are just fancy booster rockets.

[Mister Blastman]

If I slammed a AC/20 round on a jumper's head/arms/edges etc... and could make them do cartwheels in the air or better... Now that'd be awesome.

[Lostdragon]

Pale Jackal, on 19 September 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

While that might be a good gameplay decision, and may make lighter 'mechs more viable - and if that's the case, I'm in favor of it - but lighter 'mechs already have JJs that weigh less. A Jenner may weigh almost a third of a Highlander's weight, but their jump jets weigh a fourth of a Highlander's. I think additional JJs should have greater effect - I really struggle to find the benefit in adding a 3rd or 4th JJ. It gets you higher but doesn't seem to add any air time.

I find anything more than 1 JJ on most mechs is pointless. Also, a Highlander is way more of a threat when pop tarting than a Jenner so the difference it weight balances out. I do shoot a lot in the air on my Jenner but I am typically moving forward while doing so and I have to hold lasers on target. A HGN can jump from behind cover moving only vertically and shoot long range pinpoint weapons. The two mechs use JJ in drastically different manners.

Not to mention if you change the weight of anything it screws up stock configurations and PGI has said that is not going to happen.

[Pale Jackal]

Lostdragon, on 19 September 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

I find anything more than 1 JJ on most mechs is pointless...

Well, additional JJs do get you higher. So, that can let you more easily escape by using terrain, or might make it easier to snipe. However, I generally find that 2 JJs will let me clear most obstacles when escaping or sniping, and adding a 3rd or 4th JJ to a Highlander at 2 tons each strikes me as too inefficient, and the gains seem marginal in any 'mech I've used. However, jump jetting onto a ridge in Tourmaline in my HGN 733C and taking care of a Jaeger who was harassing my lance is kind of priceless, hah.

Lostdragon, on 19 September 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:

Not to mention if you change the weight of anything it screws up stock configurations and PGI has said that is not going to happen.

I'm not suggesting the weights be changed. I was just countering the idea that the Jenner should take off quicker than a heavier 'mech, because while the lighter 'mech weighs less, their jump jets also weigh less, and probably produce less lift.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Stronger screen shake when shot while in mid air :

I'll talk to the designers see if they like the idea because I do.


Why we can't push mechs in mid air right now :

The idea is great but will require a little bit more than just apply impulse to a flying mech when it is hit. Because such an event would be instantaneous, depending on your ping to the server, it will desync for a fraction of a second depending on how it's done.

1. Either the local client will see the correct reaction but all other clients will see a delayed reaction (pop) to correct the location of the mech now on the server. And then possibly another pop for the local client for final correction.
2. Or we let the server broadcast to all but then all clients would see a delayed impulse being applied to the mech being hit

Of course the pops can be interpolated and other magic done blah blah blah.

Once we have knockdowns back in this may be attainable by ragdolling the mech to where the server predicts it will go. But those appear to be a while away still.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Design seems fine with it so I'll see if I can fast track it. It'll be quite quick to write.

It'll be some kind of multiplier multiplied with the inverse of the mechs mass so smaller mechs would receive a greater camera shake multiplier than a massive mech would.

[AlmightyAeng]

Wow...thanks Thomas. Someone...read a post...an idea...and liked it...so he talked to the developers...and might fast track it?

That's...communication and response...can they put you in charge?

[Kunae]

Thomas: Don't really see how it adds to the game. If you're in a light-mech, and you get hit by an AC20 while in the air, bad things are already coming your way.

Adding greater shake to them would only be equivalent to "ghost-heating" the mech.

[jakucha]

I know when collision finally makes its resurrection they plan on making AC/20s able to knockdown mechs on occasion, so maybe they can eventually do it for air.

[CeeKay Boques]

There is very little knock at all in this game, but yes, messing up a lights flight trajectory with a well placed round would be great.

[FupDup]

Kunae, on 19 September 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Thomas: Don't really see how it adds to the game. If you're in a light-mech, and you get hit by an AC20 while in the air, bad things are already coming your way.

Adding greater shake to them would only be equivalent to "ghost-heating" the mech.

Because they need more ways to promote the usage of top-tier avatars.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

You're welcome.

[Monky]

Thomas, you're da best.

Good idea and will help counter jump-sniping and increase viability of AC2's and other high velocity ballistics.