63 replies to this topic

[Caswallon]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Design seems fine with it so I'll see if I can fast track it. It'll be quite quick to write.

It'll be some kind of multiplier multiplied with the inverse of the mechs mass so smaller mechs would receive a greater camera shake multiplier than a massive mech would.

are.

are you god Mr D.....! Awesome response and posts sir!

Bonus idea just to muddy the waters... Each physical hit reduces the amount of jump fuel left to the mech. This means it'll drop out of the air faster maybe before the pilot wanted to.....?

[Alistair Winter]

So... in effect.... jump jets just got nerfed?

What the ****?

[Monky]

Alistair Winter, on 19 September 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

So... in effect.... jump jets just got nerfed?

What the ****?

Shooting while jumping and receiving counterfire. Saying 'jumpjets just got nerfed' is a gross over simplification.

[Alistair Winter]

Monky, on 19 September 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Shooting while jumping and receiving counterfire. Saying 'jumpjets just got nerfed' is a gross over simplification.

Then please elaborate and show me the complexity of this situation, so that I may better understand the advantages and disadvantages brought by this change. Let's make a list of pros and cons.

Cons:

• It's now harder to use jump jets while shoot, because incoming fire will disrupt your aim.

Pros:

[Monky]

• jumpsniping is supposed to be hard, this is why it got such a huge negative modifier in tabletop

Also, under your pros, you could list 'now I have something I can do against jumpsnipers other than boat PPC's.'

Edited by Monky, 19 September 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I understand jump-sniping being an issue, but why did you specifically call out jumping in brawls? How is that abusive?

EDIT: I'm not sure how you could argue that this isn't in some way a JJ nerf. It's totally fine and probably won't affect things much in the long run, but a nerf is a nerf, no matter how slight.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 19 September 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Parduke]

Zerberus, on 19 September 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

....which would completely negate half of the canon and MWO purpose of even having jumpjets....

As far as knocking down mechs in flight not adhering to physics, it doesn`t adhere to HOLLYWOOD physics, but very much to realistic physics.

If you think a 285 pound shell (ac/20, to give you a fair chance) slamming into a 20 ton battlemech is going to somehow make the mech twist and gyrate like a spinning top, you are sorely mistaken. Airborne or not. The inertial mass of even the lightest mech just gobsmacks even the heaviest shells in game.

If you get hit with a baseball, does it spin you end over end, or does it just hurt? Does it spin you end over end when you`re in the air? Or does it still just hurt?

Ah but an AC20 shell doesn't follow physics already as far as it's inertia doing the damage. As far as I can tell they are HEAT rounds (High Explosive Anti-Tank... erm Mech) rounds and the damage comes not from impact so much as it does from the explosive force of the shell's "warhead"
They used to have a really cool concussion wave visual effect that would propagate from the point of impact... I really miss that. That and the cool bell ring when u hit a mech.

Edit: as far as getting hit by a baseball bat... you better believe it will spin you around or the person hitting you wasn't trying right... I know this one for a fact

Edited by Parduke, 19 September 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

He said baseball, not baseball bat.

[Alistair Winter]

Monky, on 19 September 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

• jumpsniping is supposed to be hard, this is why it got such a huge negative modifier in tabletop

Also, under your pros, you could list 'now I have something I can do against jumpsnipers other than boat PPC's.'

I don't think you understand how a pro and con list works, or the difference between buffing and nerfing. If you're applying a change that has only negative consequences, then it's a nerf.

What you're offering, is a couple of poor justifications. That's not the same as a positive consequence, so it's still a pure nerf to jump jetting, which has not been a problem in the game for a while. In other words, you're trying to fix something that isn't broke, which usually leads to it getting broke.

Jumpsnipers are not a problem in this game. PPC boats have not been a problem for a while, nor a solution. Saying that jumpsniping is supposed to be hard without further explanation is meaningless. It's currently ineffective, so it's apparently hard enough, since almost no one is doing it. People are min-maxing builds to get a huge alphastrike or high burst damage, almost no one is wasting tons on several jump jets. And light mechs mostly stick to the ground, because they're too vulnerable when they land, as they loose just enough speed to be blown away by assault mechs.

I applaud the effort to make the game realistic, but how about starting with something that doesn't ultimately lead to more of what we have now. Atlas and Stalker assault mechs just plodding forward with as much armor and firepower as physically possible. If you want to see more variety, it needs to be rewarded.

[Monky]

I do, however you are arguing a point I wasn't making. You're talking about jump sniping, I'm talking about jump jets.

One is a subset of possibilities, the other is the overall group of possibilities.

I'm saying this; Claiming 'jumpjets have just been hit with the nerf bat' isn't a good statement to make, because jumpjets aren't intended for jump sniping, but rather mobility.

You're going off on a tangent, and I explained why that tangent shouldn't be relevant to the discussion.

I would also argue the jumpsnipers not being a problem - most games I'm in I'm either jumpsniping or being jumpsniped.

Edited by Monky, 19 September 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Serpentbane]

Zerberus, on 19 September 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

....which would completely negate half of the canon and MWO purpose of even having jumpjets....

As far as knocking down mechs in flight not adhering to physics, it doesn`t adhere to HOLLYWOOD physics, but very much to realistic physics.

If you think a 285 pound shell (ac/20, to give you a fair chance) slamming into a 20 ton battlemech is going to somehow make the mech twist and gyrate like a spinning top, you are sorely mistaken. Airborne or not. The inertial mass of even the lightest mech just gobsmacks even the heaviest shells in game.

If you get hit with a baseball, does it spin you end over end, or does it just hurt? Does it spin you end over end when you`re in the air? Or does it still just hurt?

Traveling at 1000m/s that baseball would surely hurt AND spinn you like a little bi.......

[Szegedin]

Serpentbane, on 19 September 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

Traveling at 1000m/s that baseball would surely hurt AND spinn you like a little bi.......

It would just go through you most likely..

If auto-cannon rounds are similar to HEAT then most of their energy would go into penetrating rather than shoving. I guess since they shave off armor instead of going straight to internals, they're probably not shaped blasts but still.

How did knockdown used to work? I can't quite see even a light mech getting knocked off its feet by a weapon hit, but tripping over rocks or clipping terrain with the feet while jump jetting sure should do the trick, what with the mech's high center of gravity and all....That wouldn't be much fun though.

Course there's the magical gyro to consider.

Edited by Szegedin, 19 September 2013 - 12:49 PM.

[Monky]

Szegedin, on 19 September 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

It would just go through you most likely..

If auto-cannon rounds are similar to HEAT then most of their energy would go into penetrating rather than shoving. I guess since they shave off armor instead of going straight to internals, they're probably not shaped blasts but still.

How did knockdown used to work? I can't quite see even a light mech getting knocked off its feet by a weapon hit, but tripping over rocks or clipping terrain with the feet while jump jetting sure should do the trick, what with the mech's high center of gravity and all....That wouldn't be much fun though.

Course there's the magical gyro to consider.

Mechs, while on the ground, have a lot going for them that keeps them stable - large feet compared to their mass/weight, gyro, the ability to shift weight on the fly etc. Plus about 800 years of technological development that helps them out.... but in the air, you lose a lot of those benefits, all you have is your current inertia and possibly any stabilization the jumpjets themselves add, if they are active and have fuel, in order to counteract any collision. It makes sense that even an AC2 could shake a mech that is airborne.

[Alistair Winter]

Monky, on 19 September 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

I do, however you are arguing a point I wasn't making. You're talking about jump sniping, I'm talking about jump jets.

One is a subset of possibilities, the other is the overall group of possibilities.

I'm saying this; Claiming 'jumpjets have just been hit with the nerf bat' isn't a good statement to make, because jumpjets aren't intended for jump sniping, but rather mobility.

You're going off on a tangent, and I explained why that tangent shouldn't be relevant to the discussion.

I would also argue the jumpsnipers not being a problem - most games I'm in I'm either jumpsniping or being jumpsniped.

Read our posts above. Who was the first to mention jumpsniping?

Spoiler

It was you.

Using jump jets while shooting is not the same as jumpsniping. A Jenner is not a jumpsniper.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what kind of jump jetting we're talking about. A nerf is a nerf. It's a small nerf, but still a nerf to a style of playing that, if anything, needs to be buffed to become relevant. If jump jets are only supposed to be used to climb walls, which is what they're being used for today, then there's no reason to give a Victor variant the option to carry 6 jump jets. Maybe if jump jets were buffed to allow more mobility, people would use them with that in mind.

[Drunk Canuck]

Mcchuggernaut, on 18 September 2013 - 11:51 PM, said:

Being able to knock down lights by collision would definitely reduce "hugging" (if you don't know, that's when the little ******** smush right up against you so you have trouble shooting them). At the same time, I don't think light pilots like the idea of being knocked down with guns, as speed is the only way to survive in a light. Right now HSR is still borked all to hell, and so we don't know how effective lights are going to be if they ever fix it or at least get it under control. Ravens and Jenners used to be much harder to hit than they are at present, so more people are going to Spiders, which are a troll right now because they often magically take little to no damage from shots that look like (and should be) direct hits. Combined with their small size and speed, this is a real problem. HOWEVER, if one stands still or you DO magically connect on a hit, you can pretty much blow a spider to pieces in one alpha, so whenever PGI gets them fixed, it's going to be a lot tougher to be a spider pilot. They won't be able to walk up to any lone assault mech with a decent pilot and waste it in a one on one battle like they can now. Light pilots that are accustomed to doing that are going to either scream bloody murder on the forums, or learn to seriously re-think their role and tactics when this happens. If HSR gets fixed, we may not need to be able to knock a light down with weapons at all to even the odds and deal with them. I guess to wrap up what I am trying to say: HSR is the cause of a lot of woes right now, and until it gets fixed and we see how that changes gameplay, a lot of other things can't be worked on.

You used to be able knock Mech's over in MechWarrior 3 by shooting at them, but it had to be a full on alpha to a light or medium in order to do it. I remember knocking Puma's around with a full on 12 Clan ER Medium Laser alpha in my Annihilator, which was freaking hilarious. Sure, you might have trouble doing that sort of thing now, but with the right amount of force, you should be able to knock Mech's down or interrupt their jump jets. Actually, in a lot of the lore of the novels, Mech's had jump jets mounted on their backs, rather then being in the torso or legs, I am not sure why PGI followed the old game model rather then the lore.

[Solis Obscuri]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

It'll be some kind of multiplier multiplied with the inverse of the mechs mass so smaller mechs would receive a greater camera shake multiplier than a massive mech would.

Oh, don't be shy about smacking around the floating fat man assaults, either...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPr9368w-9o

Edited by Solis Obscuri, 19 September 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

L

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Design seems fine with it so I'll see if I can fast track it. It'll be quite quick to write.

Like, like like! I can't like this enough! Thanks for reading! I praise you for helping make the next chapter in a franchise I love, and for trying to add in something that will just add to the realism of the game, and everyone in the forum community seems to unanimously like the idea of!

[Mcchuggernaut]

Drunk Canuck, on 19 September 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

You used to be able knock Mech's over in MechWarrior 3 by shooting at them, but it had to be a full on alpha to a light or medium in order to do it. I remember knocking Puma's around with a full on 12 Clan ER Medium Laser alpha in my Annihilator

Though I love the concept, there is a tad bit of a physics discrepancy with the lasers. Lasers aren't transferring much actual force, (except from the very small force created by lasers vaporizing metal) while I fully agree with ballistics doing that to a SMALL (read: a bit of extra mech shake) extent. And it is very nostalgic, and brings me back to the MW3 days. Ahhhh, the memories of my LBX-boating Diashi...

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 20 September 2013 - 02:00 AM.

[DirePhoenix]

Ghost Badger, on 19 September 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

Wow...thanks Thomas. Someone...read a post...an idea...and liked it...so he talked to the developers...and might fast track it?

That's...communication and response...can they put you in charge?

I'm pretty sure this happens a LOT more than you think it does.

However, be careful what you wish for the devs to take from the forums and implement. Can you guess some of the other features that came into the game that were requested from the forums? If you said 'Coolant Flush', 'Ghost Heat', and '3PV', you'd be correct.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

I don't think any of the ballistic ammo we carry in the Mech's is acting like a true HEAT warhead. Most likely simple High Explosive to damage the surface armour.
Normal HEAT warheads detonate on contact and produce a molten hypervelocity jet that burns a small hole through the target material. (It's designed to do more internal damage than surface damage, and normally only leaves a blast scorch pattern on the armour surface) And depending on the type of warhead can burn through up to 4 feet or more of armour[IRL], so in this timeline the Mech would not suffer much armour damage but be susceptible to serious internal damage.

So back to what happens when a mech is struck by a kinetic explosive round that has more impact energy than the Mech has acceleration/inertia. (AC20 and possibly the LBX10 at close range)
If the round hits on the sides of the Mech then absolutely it should have it's facing direction changed. And if it's a light and possibly a Medium it should be knocked down from the shear energy of the impact. (if it's traveling on the ground) But that brings in a whole different aspect to the designers, did the target see the firing Mech and "brace for impact" (from Lore), very hard if not imposable to build into the game. A surprise shot from the side or back should indeed push the target mech around and have a chance to destabilize/stumble or knock down the target.
[And I'm not even going to discuss the fact that I should be able to "kick the legs out from under a mech" with that same impact.]

The discussion around "cockpit shake" when hit with large AC type rounds either in the air or on the ground shouldn't make as much difference, there will "Always" be shake. The targeting computer, the Gyro, Sensors and the Pilot will all suffer from impact effects. No it won't be any fun, but getting struck by any large fast moving explosive projectile should be an indication for you to rethink what your currently doing or not doing.

Additionally on the discussion of "Impact force" of just the projectile hitting a Mech. Given the weight of the projectile and the speed and not counting the additional "Explosive impact" after the fact.
A single 285Kg AC20 HE round traveling at 1000f/s (900 in game now) would strike the target with 314Tons of energy. (again NO HE effect yet) SO, there would be lots of "push" applied to any target body and well over the weight of the largest mech we have in game. Now add in the detonation energy and we have enough to stagger even the largest Mech, if not even knock down some of the lighter frames.
[Again "stumbling" or falling to one knee to recover from impact would be "something to see" of a Mech, but as has been stated by Thomas requires some "game magic".]

[And yes I want that big "Klang" sound back when you get hit]

9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 22 September 2013 - 01:02 PM.