63 replies to this topic

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Ok it's in. Designers will do a little more tuning on it and it should be in live in about 2-4 weeks.

Right now the shake multiplier is 1.3 and mass multiplier is 1.2

and goes something like this

massMultiplier = (100.0f / MechTonnage) * mass multiplier;

totalShakeMultiplier = shake multiplier * massMultiplier;

[Banditman]

So, why did we feel a need to further nerf poptarting? Since spring, we've managed to:

• Add reticule shake when JJ are active
  
• Increase heat on PPCs by 25% or more
  
• Add a corny charge mechanic to Gauss rifles
  
• Add a really obscure "ghost heat" mechanic to boated weapons

Now, I don't argue that long range fire was playing too large a part in the game, but this particular change is not just a nerf to the long range game, it's a nerf to jump jets in all use cases. How is this considered a "good" idea? Just because something "can" be done, doesn't always mean it "should" be done. Just because something is reasonably easy to do, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

This is a mistake. As someone who uses jump jets every day for things besides hopping over/on buildings, I can tell you this won't be perceived as a good idea by the wider community.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Banditman, on 25 September 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

So, why did we feel a need to further nerf poptarting? Since spring, we've managed to:

• Add reticule shake when JJ are active
  
• Increase heat on PPCs by 25% or more
  
• Add a corny charge mechanic to Gauss rifles
  
• Add a really obscure "ghost heat" mechanic to boated weapons

Now, I don't argue that long range fire was playing too large a part in the game, but this particular change is not just a nerf to the long range game, it's a nerf to jump jets in all use cases. How is this considered a "good" idea? Just because something "can" be done, doesn't always mean it "should" be done. Just because something is reasonably easy to do, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.


This is a mistake. As someone who uses jump jets every day for things besides hopping over/on buildings, I can tell you this won't be perceived as a good idea by the wider community.

Jump jetting will now have forward acceleration.

[AlmightyAeng]

Looking forward to it.

[Tweaks]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 25 September 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Jump jetting will now have forward acceleration.

What about jump jetting backwards (i.e. going reverse throttle and jumping). Will we still be able to do this or not?

[Herald of Omega]

Zerberus, on 19 September 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

If you get hit with a baseball, does it spin you end over end, or does it just hurt? Does it spin you end over end when you`re in the air? Or does it still just hurt?

If you get hit by a baseball that's going fast enough, you will spin end over end while in the air.

[Zerberus]

Herald of Omega, on 26 September 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

If you get hit by a baseball that's going fast enough, you will spin end over end while in the air.

And a pebble traveling at the speed of light will literally vaporize the earth if it somehow gets through the atmosphere.

I was hit, in the head, by a baseball that was clocked at 287 MPH off the bat. I remained standing and was glad I had my helmet on.

Accelerating the ball significantly faster than that is not realistically possible using only the tools used to "regularly" play the game.

Either way, the point is that requestion realism and then rebutting against explanations of reality from an obviously hyperbolic standpoint isn`t erally requesting realism. It`s requesting Hollywood, at the price of realism. Not saying I`m against that categorically, but the 2 should not be confused simply because it`s comvenient to do so

As far as the exploding shells argument goes, it completely overlooks that as soon as a round is frangible or detonates on impact, the kinetic energy transferred to target by the round itself = 0. A "classic" HE round would expend it`s explosive force in 360² Degrees, not focus it towards the target, A HEAT would leave a scorch mark and a 2cm wide hole all the way through the mech. Only a shaped charge would have the desired effect (which would be uncommon but not unthinkable in a ballistic round, conversely commonplace for a missile), but not in addition to the impact of the round, but in leiu of it

Edited by Zerberus, 26 September 2013 - 01:38 PM.

[Banditman]

By "forward acceleration", what do you mean?

Do you mean I will no longer lose speed while in the air? If so, those light mechs are going to be even *more* impossible to hit now since they will no longer pause for a moment when they hit the ground.

Do you mean jump jetting will automatically propel me forward, regardless of my pre-jump vector? That's not great.

I am having a very difficult time coming up with any scenario where this sort of change is going to enhance "fun", let alone across the board.

How about we get some knockdowns back in the game first, and then see if this is even necessary?

[Tweaks]

Banditman, on 30 September 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

By "forward acceleration", what do you mean?

Do you mean I will no longer lose speed while in the air? If so, those light mechs are going to be even *more* impossible to hit now since they will no longer pause for a moment when they hit the ground.

Do you mean jump jetting will automatically propel me forward, regardless of my pre-jump vector? That's not great.

I am having a very difficult time coming up with any scenario where this sort of change is going to enhance "fun", let alone across the board.

How about we get some knockdowns back in the game first, and then see if this is even necessary?

He means that when completely idle, jump jetting will no longer make you go straight up vertically, but rather make you go up and forward in a slight angle. This will allow you to get unstuck on certain terrain easier and prevent people from pop-tarting in-place without having to re-position every time.

I'd still like to know if we'll be able to jump backwards still or not though... Not that it has to stay, but it is kind of useful to be able to do that when you just want to jump away from a target in reverse...

Edited by Tweaks, 30 September 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[Roland]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 25 September 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

Ok it's in. Designers will do a little more tuning on it and it should be in live in about 2-4 weeks.

Right now the shake multiplier is 1.3 and mass multiplier is 1.2

and goes something like this

massMultiplier = (100.0f / MechTonnage) * mass multiplier;

totalShakeMultiplier = shake multiplier * massMultiplier;

Thomas, as always, your posts are helpful. Thanks.

One question though... so this basically says "lighter mechs get knocked more". Is that always the case, or only when mechs are airborne?

[Tweaks]

Roland, on 30 September 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Thomas, as always, your posts are helpful. Thanks.

One question though... so this basically says "lighter mechs get knocked more". Is that always the case, or only when mechs are airborne?

Scroll up a few replies from Thomas, he does mention it's only for mid-air.

[Blue Footed Booby]

Zerberus, on 26 September 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

And a pebble traveling at the speed of light will literally vaporize the earth if it somehow gets through the atmosphere.

I was hit, in the head, by a baseball that was clocked at 287 MPH off the bat. I remained standing and was glad I had my helmet on.

If it hits you in the arm it will absolutely move your arm around. This will move your center of mass which will mess with your flight path, since rockets firing out of line with your CoM causes spinning. This could easily be enough that you wouldn't land quite right and your mech could stumble or even fall. It's not enough to make you literally fall out of the sky of course but there's more than enough wiggle room for some additional game mechanics, especially if the justification includes something like the impact temporarily throwing stabilization systems out of whack.

Quote

...
Either way, the point is that requestion realism and then rebutting against explanations of reality from an obviously hyperbolic standpoint isn`t erally requesting realism. It`s requesting Hollywood, at the price of realism. Not saying I`m against that categorically, but the 2 should not be confused simply because it`s comvenient to do so

The Hollywood stuff you're talking about isn't (just) because movie makers don't know anything about guns, combat, etc: it's artistic license, deliberately choosing to portray what gets the desired aesthetic rather than what's realistic. You can't take as axiomatic that realism is a desirable goal for its own sake and use "that's not realistic" as a trump card against design suggestions simply because it suits your individual taste.

Quote

As far as the exploding shells argument goes, it completely overlooks that as soon as a round is frangible or detonates on impact, the kinetic energy transferred to target by the round itself = 0. A "classic" HE round would expend it`s explosive force in 360² Degrees, not focus it towards the target, A HEAT would leave a scorch mark and a 2cm wide hole all the way through the mech. Only a shaped charge would have the desired effect (which would be uncommon but not unthinkable in a ballistic round, conversely commonplace for a missile), but not in addition to the impact of the round, but in leiu of it

HEAT rounds are in fact shaped charges. That's literally the whole point: a metal cone directs the explosive force into a concentrated "beam" with or without a dense penetrator in front of that spray.

On a sidenote, have I mentioned that I really hate the emote? It takes otherwise reasonable posts and magically turns them into arrogant snark.

[Krivvan]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 25 September 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Jump jetting will now have forward acceleration.

Very bad idea if it's forced forward acceleration. If it's only forward acceleration when holding W, then it's a good thing. If there's always forward acceleration then it's a pretty significant nerf to every jump jet capable light.

[PEEFsmash]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 25 September 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Jump jetting will now have forward acceleration.

This will be an awful mechanic.

[Roland]

PEEFsmash, on 30 September 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

This will be an awful mechanic.

Kind of required though, as currently you can't really use jj's to climb steep hills. You get stuck without any forward momentum, and the jets just make you hop up and down.

[Krivvan]

Roland, on 30 September 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Kind of required though, as currently you can't really use jj's to climb steep hills. You get stuck without any forward momentum, and the jets just make you hop up and down.

Which is why I'm saying that it needs to be forward acceleration only when holding W.

It does help Heavy and Assault jumpers, but it destroys half of the reason to take jump jets for Lights if it's always forward.

Edited by Krivvan, 30 September 2013 - 06:13 PM.

[Roland]

Maybe, although it could potentially create some new capabilities for light mechs , as it may give them the ability to alter their vector mid flight.

If the thrust is in the direction of the legs, and not the torso, it could enable new things. They may not necessarily be useful, and they will certainly be different, but being able to change direction mid air could be powerful in the hands of a good pilot.

[Krivvan]

Roland, on 30 September 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

Maybe, although it could potentially create some new capabilities for light mechs , as it may give them the ability to alter their vector mid flight.

If the thrust is in the direction of the legs, and not the torso, it could enable new things. They may not necessarily be useful, and they will certainly be different, but being able to change direction mid air could be powerful in the hands of a good pilot.

I doubt you'd change direction on a dime, so it isn't as helpful as landing and actually changing direction on a dime.

It only creates capabilities if it's an extremely fast change, and it probably won't be.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I promote the idea that collisions should slow movement and that weapons will be the (only?) way of knocking down other 'mechs.

[DirePhoenix]

Krivvan, on 30 September 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Very bad idea if it's forced forward acceleration. If it's only forward acceleration when holding W, then it's a good thing. If there's always forward acceleration then it's a pretty significant nerf to every jump jet capable light.

If it nerfs jumpsnipers or makes them have to reposition instead of sitting in place all day, I'm all for it.

But I'd like jumpjets a lot better if they actually explosively launched the mechs at a forward angle. (read: as if thrown from an explosion instead of gently lifted into the air by a balloon)

Edited by DirePhoenix, 01 October 2013 - 12:51 PM.