55 replies to this topic

[Mackman]

This is my first BT/MW game ever, and I've been playing it ever since it went into OB. I used to be a firm-die-hard defender of the right to boat: I have fond memories of my Boom-Cat, my JagerBomb, my 4xPPC Stalker, and I was definitely one of those "l2p, stop trying to nerf skill!" types.

I have no TT-rooted hatred of pin-point accuracy or alpha strikes. I have absolutely no BT-related horse in this race at all.

That said... I have my shiny new Orion fitted with 2 SRM 4's and 2 SRM 6's, and I really love that the Ghost Heat system forces chain-fire most times, while leaving the alpha as an option. It just feels way cooler, it looks way cooler, and it definitely raises the skill cap a bit (not to say that raising the skill cap is inherently a good thing).

Is it easy to understand? Meh: The exact numbers are hard, but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that "Firing too many of this gives me extra heat: I should only do that when I have to."

Could it be better implemented and better explained? Most definitely, and I don't think AC-2's should have been hit at all.

But does it make the game better? I have to say yes. I, personally, am having more fun now that I've gotten used to chain-firing my missiles as default.

[Thomas Dziegielewski]

Yes, it needs better notification on the HUD or in the cockpit somehow somewhere. We are already looking into this but UI 2.0 is priority for the UI/HUD team.

[Homeless Bill]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Yes, it needs better notification on the HUD or in the cockpit somehow somewhere. We are already looking into this but UI 2.0 is priority for the UI/HUD team.

Please... please tell someone to fix the math. It's so needlessly convoluted.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I think you could have implemented a better solution to the pinpoint alpha problem than by adding such a weird and counter-intuitive system. I mean, you could have added movement sway, added convergence limits, implemented heat scale effects, rebalanced heatsinks, balanced the weapons (like you did with the PPC and Gauss), added hardpoint restrictions or any number of logical tweaks to the current systems in place without creating an entirely new system and adding an arbitrary amount of heat based on an arbitrary weapon limit.

Sure, ghost heat worked and definitely cut down on boating, but it's such an ugly and inelegant system.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I was kinda thinking the heat should be based on a weapon difference from stock build. than just number of weapons. Then If you would put multiple ppc in a stalker it would heat up fast. But not the awesome that is built for it. Some like a delta heat map.

I.E. heat+damage of stock weapon subtracted form heat+damage of replaced weapon equals the ghost heat factored for firing. Dunno, could put it down to the original plumbing can not handle the new heat of the replaced weapon as good as the original one.

Might be a bit simpler coding wise, and also help fit in new weapons without a bunch of exceptions when the clan stuff comes in. There would still be a boating penalty heatwise. But it would scale smooth with the alpha/heat of each weapon.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 19 September 2013 - 11:39 AM.

[Ahja]

So...your Mech looks cooler firing its weapons now that they made you use chainfire *sigh*. Thanks for adding into the discussion your help has been illuminating. NOW CAN SOMEONE LOCK THIS USELESS THREAD!?!

[Mackman]

Ahja, on 19 September 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

So...your Mech looks cooler firing its weapons now that they made you use chainfire *sigh*. Thanks for adding into the discussion your help has been illuminating. NOW CAN SOMEONE LOCK THIS USELESS THREAD!?!

Yeah, because games aren't supposed to be fun or look cool... sorry, dude, forgot that you're the ultimate arbiter of what makes a good game. My bad.

[Donnie Silveray]

Kaeb Odellas, on 19 September 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

I think you could have implemented a better solution to the pinpoint alpha problem than by adding such a weird and counter-intuitive system. I mean, you could have added movement sway, added convergence limits, implemented heat scale effects, rebalanced heatsinks, balanced the weapons (like you did with the PPC and Gauss), added hardpoint restrictions or any number of logical tweaks to the current systems in place without creating an entirely new system and adding an arbitrary amount of heat based on an arbitrary weapon limit.

There's an old saying in artists and game devs, you're done when you cannot find anything more to remove. But there comes a point where you simply have to add features in the first place to address concerns before streamlining it. PGI mentioned in the past that ghost heat was needed to be an extra bit of leverage to balance the clans when they come. To be honest I'd rather have such a system in and be able to run it through its paces rather than diving into Clans without a safeguard in place. When the time comes the system should be tweaked to be as un-invasive as possible. Still, the system isn't terribly complicated, just don't fire too many of the same weapons or type at once and you'll be fine.

Or, you know, don't boat builds and be a man. Fight balanced .

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 19 September 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[Victor Morson]

The problem with Ghost Heat isn't that it restricts alphas, it that it restricts alphas in a completely illogical manner. It doesn't help that our so called community manager when asked about Ghost Heat thinks it takes 4+ launchers to cause it universally, and that "not many 'mechs can do that." Go listen to NGNG if you don't believe me.

Some examples why Ghost Heat is the dumbest thing in the world:

• 3x SRM6 = No Ghost Heat, 18 Missiles
  
• 2x SRM6 2x SRM4 = 4x SRM6 Ghost Heat, 16 Missiles
  
• 2x SRM6 3x SRM2 = No Ghost heat, 18 Missiles
  
• 2x LRM10 1x LRM20 = 3x LRM20 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 2x LRM20 = 0 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 4x LRM5 1x LRM20 = 0 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 4x LRM10 = 4xLRM10 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 2x AC/20 = Massive Ghost Heat, 40 Damage
  
• 1x AC/20 3x SRM6 = No Ghost Heat, 56 Damage
  
• 3x PPC = 3 PPCs Ghost Heat
  
• 2x PPC 1x ER PPC = 3 ER PPC Ghost Heat
  
• 2x Large Laser, 1x ER Large Laser = 3x ER Large Laser Ghost Heat
  
• 3x Ultra/5 = No Ghost Heat
  
• 2x AC/2 2x AC/5 = 4x AC/5 Ghost Heat

Also did things like the AC/2 really need ghost heat in the first place?



I could tear into this system for hours, but you get the idea. It's just flat out stupid, broken, poorly thought out and while the goal of lowering alphas/forcing weapon mixes was intended, it failed horrendously and people will just replace "two high alpha weapons" with "two different high alpha weapons" at most.

I have designed better and more sound system scribbling on the back of a napkin at a bar at 1 in the morning. It's not the idea of the thing I, and others, hate. It's the terrible execution with absolutely no logic behind it, coupled with Paul's I KNOW BEST!! claims and refusal to adjust it, combined again with the community manager not understanding how it works despite the fact that it caused two separate forum riots.

EDIT: Oh yeah, it nerfs weapons/mechs that in no way needed it. Such as the fact that from the very first announcement we've been making fun of the fact they nerf'ed 9 Medium Laser boats (Which were already awful), but they also murdered Large Laser centric 'mechs since they require more guns to be useful and kicked AC/2s right in the teeth, destroying an arguably already bad weapon system entirely.

The short sightedness and flaws in this system as are outright mind boggling.

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Yes, it needs better notification on the HUD or in the cockpit somehow somewhere. We are already looking into this but UI 2.0 is priority for the UI/HUD team.

How about you do something that every single poll keeps saying that we want, and kill Ghost Heat? Or would Paul throw you out of the office and scream "GET OUT!" if you suggested this to him?

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 September 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Snuglninja]

Ghost heat is just stupid the end.

[RandomLurker]

Alpha and pinpoint aiming are not bad because they are not in the TT. They are bad because they remove gameplay options. While they exist, high-alpha direct fire weapons will ALWAYS be optimal. LRMS, SRMS, rapid-fire weapons (ac2, etc. I know they are popular atm but that's because the alhpa junkies are sore about their UAC getting it's deserved nerf. They aren't actually that good, and I predict LLas + a brawling weapon to be the next meta), will always be inferior. Not just less popular, but actually worse.

This has been true for 15 years. Since MW2 brought MW to online gaming, massed medium lasers were the way to go. In MW3, it was massed lasers again. In MW4, a hardpoint system and nerfing lasers into uselessness led to- massed PPC and Gauss. In MWO, we have a similar hardpoint system, and.... you guessed it. Massed PPC and Gauss. Nerf those, on down to the next most powerful direct-fire weapon. Nerf that one, and on to the next. And so on.

The reason that massed direct fire weapons are so good is because of how the armor system is designed. That system was designed for an environment with no pinpoint aiming. Thus, brought straight into a MW, first person game, pinpoint aiming becomes overpowered.

I really doubt that anyone wants to remove the armor system. Increasing armor again, or increasing CT armor could be a patch, but will do nothing to change the 15 year old metagame of pinpoint fire. Balance will still revolve a cyclic nerf chain of direct fire weapons. Unless pinpoint aiming itself is addressed. And that's a topic for another thread- but I will say that Cone of Fire is a terrible idea. It takes control away from the pilot. There are many other, better ideas, and one of them is even in the game already but unused. Nonetheless, people that don't understand the game dynamic (such as PGI) will continue to think that weapon stats or arbitrary and complicated systems like Ghost Heat actually accomplish anything.

Edited by RandomLurker, 19 September 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Pale Jackal]

Kaeb Odellas, on 19 September 2013 - 11:24 AM, said:

I think you could have implemented a better solution to the pinpoint alpha problem than by adding such a weird and counter-intuitive system. I mean, you could have added movement sway, added convergence limits, implemented heat scale effects, rebalanced heatsinks, balanced the weapons (like you did with the PPC and Gauss), added hardpoint restrictions or any number of logical tweaks to the current systems in place without creating an entirely new system and adding an arbitrary amount of heat based on an arbitrary weapon limit.

Movement sway wouldn't necessarily prevent anything - like the jump jet fix did make sniping harder, but it's certainly still possible. It would encourage more light 'mechs to stand still, which is ultimately bad for the light 'mechs, and less bad for assaults etc.

Convergence limits are interesting, but it also prevents players from hitting what they're aiming at. It's punishing skill, effectively, by putting an artificial cap on skill - you can only be a good a shot as convergence allows.

Weapon balancing would ultimately mean we have 15 heat normal PPCs and 20 heat ER PPCs and punishes builds that run 1 or 2 of that weapon. The question is whether weapons could be sufficiently balanced to punish boating them, but to allow them to be used 1 or 2 at a time.

I think of the suggested changes, a very low heat capacity with higher dissipation would probably work best. Adjust heat capacity of 30 so you shutdown if you fire 3 PPCs. Then again, that's more restrictive than the current ghost heat rules. I also think that PGI was probably right when they theorized that having a higher capacity with lower dissipation makes for a more fun in-game experience. If you can easily build a heat-neutral 'mech, then you never ever worry about heat. Granted, at that point you should probably take off some heat-sinks and use the tonnage elsewhere, but a "pushing the limit" mechanic is part of many games, and for good reason.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 19 September 2013 - 12:36 PM.

[Victor Morson]

The problem is when Ghost Heat came out, tons of casuals freaked out and changed their builds to horrendous frankenmechs. "My 6 PPC Stalker doesn't work? Oh no! Time to start using an AC/2, LRM10 and two ER Large!"

The actual system was a complete failure. Most good pilots simply adapted to combing high-alpha weapons to get around it, which is finally starting to catch on in the community again. For about a month after the change I could walk around in a Gauss 3x PPC Highlander mass-murdering people using LBX and stuff.

Ghost Heat basically accomplished nothing except overreaction from casuals and the ruination of a couple fun, useful and NOT OVERPOWERED builds, like 4x Large Lasers.

[Monky]

Victor Morson's notes are very critical to balancing 'the maths' of ghost heat.

I realize this system is vital to balancing the clans, but the effects on inner sphere are already out of whack in many places. allow me to perhaps parse them better;

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

SRM;

• 3x SRM6 = No Ghost Heat, 18 Missiles
  
• 2x SRM6 2x SRM4 = Ghost Heat, 16 Missiles
  
• 2x SRM6 3x SRM2 = No Ghost heat, 18 Missiles

It would seem it might be better to figure out 'how many individual SRM's in an alpha is too many' and hit the combinations thereof with ghost heat

• 2x LRM10 1x LRM20 = Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 2x LRM20 = 0 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 4x LRM5 1x LRM20 = 0 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 4x LRM10 = Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles

Same here, but for LRM's

• 2x AC/20 = Massive Ghost Heat, 40 Damage
  
• 1x AC/20 3x SRM6 = No Ghost Heat, 56 Damage

Combined weapon systems are a bit harder to hash out but could possibly be cleaned up to be more compatible

• 3x PPC = 3 PPCs Ghost Heat
  
• 2x PPC 1x ER PPC = 3 ER PPC Ghost Heat
  
• 2x Large Laser, 1x ER Large Laser = 3x ER Large Laser Ghost Heat

Differing values perhaps causing some wierdness when PPC/ERPPC or Large laser and its variants are combined?

• 3x Ultra/5 = No Ghost Heat
  
• 2x AC/2 2x AC/5 = 4x AC/5 Ghost Heat

Kind of speaks for itself

[MisterFiveSeven]

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

The problem is when Ghost Heat came out, tons of casuals freaked out and changed their builds to horrendous frankenmechs. "My 6 PPC Stalker doesn't work? Oh no! Time to start using an AC/2, LRM10 and two ER Large!"

The actual system was a complete failure. Most good pilots simply adapted to combing high-alpha weapons to get around it, which is finally starting to catch on in the community again. For about a month after the change I could walk around in a Gauss 3x PPC Highlander mass-murdering people using LBX and stuff.

Ghost Heat basically accomplished nothing except overreaction from casuals and the ruination of a couple fun, useful and NOT OVERPOWERED builds, like 4x Large Lasers.

But Ghost heat did do one good thing:

It nerfed my x4 LL 3D, so I swapped for x4 medlas ac20.

Wosre mech, but a brawling beast

OT:

Ghost Heat is intellectually offensive and simply lazy. Minimum convergence of 2m at full speed, 1m at half speed, nuts on standing still.

Is this that hard? Is adding movement penalties or CoF "punishing skill?" This is the most tired trope I have ever heard. Stop saying it.

Play counter-strike (not GO, 1.5 or source) if you think that "shots not going where you shoot them" utterly destroys the depth and skill of a game.

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 19 September 2013 - 02:04 PM.

[OneEyed Jack]

Mackman, on 19 September 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

Yeah, because games aren't supposed to be fun or look cool... sorry, dude, forgot that you're the ultimate arbiter of what makes a good game. My bad.

It has nothing to do with that.... dude.

It has to do with the fact that's it's stupid, illogical, and counter-intuitive.

And "It looks cooler chain-firing" just means you couldn't figure out that you could have already done that without some stupid, arbitrary limit in place. Which, as far as I'm concerned, means your input has zero weight.

[Mackman]

OneEyed Jack, on 19 September 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with that.... dude.

It has to do with the fact that's it's stupid, illogical, and counter-intuitive.

And "It looks cooler chain-firing" just means you couldn't figure out that you could have already done that without some stupid, arbitrary limit in place. Which, as far as I'm concerned, means your input has zero weight.

Someone's grouchy.

There was no reason to chain-fire before. It was more efficient in every way to alpha every time. It was the dev's intent to give some incentive to chain-fire, and that's exactly what they've done (minus a few really non-intuitive combinations that need to be looked at, of course).

I don't find it counter-intuitive or illogical at all. Systems that can take <X> heat just fine can start to take damage at <X+1>. Having an alpha-strike produce more heat than chain-fire makes complete sense to me. Now: Does it need to be explained better? Obviously. But the mechanic itself is sound.

[Corvus Antaka]

I think Victor liked the game better when it was all 4-6 ppc stalkers, dual ac/20 boats, and 4LRM 15 awesomes 2 shotting everyone.

[RandomLurker]

The issue is not that Alpha boats are bad. It's that this particular solution is stupid. There are many OTHER solutions, suggested by many people, all of them superior to a mechanic by fiat that;s invisible to the player in-game.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Thomas Dziegielewski, on 19 September 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

Yes, it needs better notification on the HUD or in the cockpit somehow somewhere. We are already looking into this but UI 2.0 is priority for the UI/HUD team.

Thomas, you know you're my (and many others) favorite dev, but the system itself needs a serious number tweak. The biggest issue is that Large Lasers, AC2s and smaller SRM2/4 volleys that have not been a problem in the past are now much less effective than ever. Never being outrageously good builds in the first place, are now suffering significantly, by a system presumably set in place to stop large scale alpha boats. Even dropping the multiplier or threshold number (especially on Large Laser/AC2's, allowing more weapons before the penalty system steps in) would solve many problems.

Actually, a good base line would be at the point the system stop excessive boating, but yet ALLOWS the Awesome to do at LEAST its stock loadout of 3 PPCs and not be even worse than it already is compared to other mechs. (Not suggesting to up the PPC count on the ghost heat threshold, but give the Awesome a mech quirk or something!)

Edited by mwhighlander, 19 September 2013 - 04:29 PM.