23 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Likely, you've looked into Ferro-Fiberous Armor, and found it to be lacking; it takes the same number of slots as Endo, while offering less advantage. Many people have complained it's underpowered and worthless, and likely you're discounting it entirely.

Don't.

Ferro is making a comeback. I'd estimate about 70% of my builds mount it right now. Simply put, many times you can get away without running XL by using Ferro, ending with a far more durable build.

The key, and I cannot stress this enough, is that this primarily works on builds where you aren't mounting equipment in your arms, or only one arm. That's why Torso-only builds are absolutely brutal and are among the best in the game; a good example would be the Centurion 9A's typical 2ML and 3 SRM6. This is made possible by combining Endo + Ferro.

Ferro has a reputation for being underpowered, but in cases like that - that means a much bigger engine with absolutely no downside. Ferro is a very powerful piece of equipment to add to 'mechs running Standard Engines, and I highly recommend you look into ditching the XL in favor of Ferro on any builds you can manage it!

Finally, Ferro is very friendly towards large engines. A 'mech with a 375 engine can mount all of it's extra heatsinks right inside, freeing a huge amount of slots; in turn, the Ferro will help provide the weight necessary to mount such a large engine and the DHS within. There are already some killer projected Battlemaster builds that utilize this fact.

Edited by Victor Morson, 19 September 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[Sadistic Savior]

The only reason to use Ferro is if you have already used Endo and do not need a lot of space. Thats it.

Ferro should not be useless, but it is. The reality is that very few builds will be able to exploit both, and there is no reason in the game to use Ferro in place of Endo. Endo is always better if you can only use one or the other.

[Devils Advocate]

One ton freed up from using ferro only means a "much bigger" engine if you're using an XL 225 or under, and we're talking about standard engines here. You can go from a standard 180 to a 195 with an extra ton. If you're freeing up 1.5 tons you can leap from a 195 to a 200 which will also net you a free heatsink. It's just not a worthwhile boost for most mechs.

Also for new players I'd recommend staying away from it unless you've really thought it out hard and you've already got Endo installed because you'll have to pay more money to uninstall it if you don't like it. It's great if you've really got the space for it and you don't intend to use anything else in that space but remember you're committing some cash into your mech that you wont be able to draw back out of it.

[scJazz]

Ummmm FF saves 1 ton of weight on 50 tonners and 2 tons on 100 tonners. So uhhhh... well yeah that is it.

*underwhelmed*

[Ryokens leap]

The meta has changed. Less gauss and erppc taking up slots leaves room for ferro and more smaller caliber weapons and light energy.

[Victor Morson]

scJazz, on 19 September 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Ummmm FF saves 1 ton of weight on 50 tonners and 2 tons on 100 tonners. So uhhhh... well yeah that is it.

*underwhelmed*

That's enough to allow you to squeeze on the most powerful designs in the game, by a hair, though. Without that, the 9A wouldn't have enough ammo to operate, as just one example.

It's an under looked optimization.

[MortVent]

It's a toss up.

Usually better to grab endo steel, get the internals you want and burn any extra tons on armor since the point/ton savings on armor isn't really a big deal. Vs half your mech's internal tonnage shaved off

[Koniving]

Ferro's mainly to help you put full armor on a mech that otherwise couldn't get full armor.

It had real value back with repair and rearm (it was cheaper to repair; a LOT cheaper than endo). But that's lost, and thus it's "under powered" in the eyes of many.

But yes, otherwise as Victor said, don't toss it aside entirely. There's still a few good uses for it.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2013 - 06:53 PM.

[Koniving]

scJazz, on 19 September 2013 - 03:27 PM, said:

Ummmm FF saves 1 ton of weight on 50 tonners and 2 tons on 100 tonners. So uhhhh... well yeah that is it.

*underwhelmed*

It doesn't save much. But it's real role is to allow you to put on twice as much armor per ton. It's just a shame it doesn't mean it could double the total armor.

[Mao of DC]

I use it and endo on my light mechs as I usually need to weight and only mount smaller weapons anyway.

[Konril]

Check the facts.

Ferro Fibrous armor only gives 12% more points per ton than standard armor, for that 14 slot reduction in available space.
A 35 ton Jenner or Raven would be completely maxed out with 7.4 tons of standard or 6.6 tons of ferro fibrous. Weight saved: 0.8 tons.
A 50 ton Centurion, Hunchback, or Trebuchet can mount 10.6 tons standard armor or 9.4 ferro fibrous armor before maxing out. Weight saved: 1.1 tons.
A 65 Catapult or Jagermech: 13.2 tons standard or 11.8 ferro fibrous. Weight saved: 1.4 tons.
A 100 ton Atlas: 19.2 tons standard or 17.1 tons ferro fibrous. Weight saved: 2.1 tons.

Standard structure is 10% of the mechs weight. Endo steel cuts that in half, so the weight savings is 5% of the mechs total weight capacity, but rounded to a half ton.
Raven: 3.5 tons standard or 2.0 tons endo steel. 1.5 tons saved.
Centurion: 5 tons standard or 2.5 tons endo steel. 2.5 tons saved.
Jagermech: 6.5 tons standard or 3.5 tons endo steel. 3 tons saved.
Atlas: 10 tons standard or 5 tons endo steel. 5 tons saved.

The only mechs I know of that can mount better than a 360 engine are two of the Awesomes and the Victors. But why would someone want an engine that big? For the record: The 80 tonners have this much for Structure: 8 tons standard or 4 tons endo. Armor 15.4 tons standard or 13.8 tons ferro fibrous. Weight savings for the both is 5.6 tons (4 tons structure, 1.6 tons armor).

A sample of standard engine weights:
Awesome default 240: 16.5 tons + 1 heat sink needed (17.5 tons total)
Standard 250: 18.5 tons
Victor default 320 fits 2 heat sinks in the engine: 29.5 tons
Standard 325 fits 3 heat sinks in engine: 30.5 tons.
Standard 375 engine fits 5 heat sinks but weighs 45.5 tons.

So while you are saving 5 tons of weight at the cost of 28 space on your mech, you are spending 16 tons to mount 3 more heat sinks in your engine, not to mention 5 tons for the heat sinks themselves. It's better for weight and space to skip the upgrade, use the 325 or 250 engine, and just fill the space you aren't filling with structure and armor with the double heat sinks instead. Really, if you are using the 250 engine then you can skip all three upgrades and fill the space with an extra 22 single heat sinks with all the weight you're not spending on the 375 engine, and still get better heat performance.

Really, unless it's an AS7-D-DC, I think that any engine over 325 isn't worth the price. They just get way too heavy to quickly even with XL technology. Only reason I consider it forgivable on the Atlas is that the next smallest ECM capable mech happens to be the Cicada.

[Johnny Reb]

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

That's enough to allow you to squeeze on the most powerful designs in the game, by a hair, though. Without that, the 9A wouldn't have enough ammo to operate, as just one example.

It's an under looked optimization.

I would rather you show me how the loss of 14 slots for such little gain is good!

edit: only use it on lights and my fast centurion-d. Lights fine, most meds and above endo is hard enough to equip!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 19 September 2013 - 10:57 PM.

[scJazz]

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

That's enough to allow you to squeeze on the most powerful designs in the game, by a hair, though. Without that, the 9A wouldn't have enough ammo to operate, as just one example.

It's an under looked optimization.

I've written on this forum that all lights and many mediums can and should use it. As you described the Centurion 9A gets another ton of SRM ammo which takes it from mehhhh to excellent! Beyond Mediums though there just aren't many setups that can use it. All of the ones that can would have a large number of Energy Slots and a very big Standard Engine.

I guess what I was trying to say is... there are not that many mechs where exchanging 14 slots is worth the saved tonnage in the Heavy or Assault classes.

[Aym]

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

That's enough to allow you to squeeze on the most powerful designs in the game, by a hair, though. Without that, the 9A wouldn't have enough ammo to operate, as just one example.

It's an under looked optimization.

I think the problem is the opposite. It's an OVER-looked at option that is a newb-trap in terms of C-bills with the exception of some builds, IE most lights and a few mediums.

[SethAbercromby]

Most heavy or Assault classes can barely fit Endo into most builds because of the space the large weaponry takes up. However, all lights and most mediums have enough space to fit both and a full set of weaponry. You can generally assume, that these two optimizations are designed to help light and medium 'Mechs deal with their low tonnage. A Centurion 9A can fit more ammo, a Yen-Lo-Wang brawler mount a 245 engine (also 4 tons of ac20 ammo + C.A.S.E.), pushing it to a speed of 80 Kph.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 20 September 2013 - 02:57 AM, said:

Most heavy or Assault classes can barely fit Endo into most builds because of the space the large weaponry takes up. However, all lights and most mediums have enough space to fit both and a full set of weaponry. You can generally assume, that these two optimizations are designed to help light and medium 'Mechs deal with their low tonnage. A Centurion 9A can fit more ammo, a Yen-Lo-Wang brawler mount a 245 engine (also 4 tons of ac20 ammo + C.A.S.E.), pushing it to a speed of 80 Kph.

Drop the CASE and you can mount a 250 standard engine

Edit: That gives you one more engine heatsink which can make a huge difference in Heat - but I can see why someone would prefer the safety of the CASE....

Edited by Shar Wolf, 20 September 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Project Chaos]

Whenever I make builds on Smurfy, I usually build it, and then if I have spare room, I use the Ferro.

It just seems so underpowered though, it frees up so much LESS tonnage and still takes up so many crit slots.

I do like the idea of Ferro over the idea of endosteel though. I love the idea of super armored mechs, so when you think about "packing more armor into your mech" versus "Making the mech's bones lighter" I MUCH prefer the former.

[Dan Nashe]

How to determine if your mech needs Ferro Fibrous Armor:
(Your mech already has endo steel. If it doesn't, don't even consider ferro fibrous yet. Endo Steel is better.)
1. Build it on a third party site like Smurfys.
2. Does your mech have 14 free critical slots? If yes, ADD FERRO FIBROUS.
3. If no: Is your engine close to a multiple of 25?
--- If Yes: Are heat sinks taking up any space?
--- If Yes, would placing one more heat sink in the engine give you 14 free critical spaces?
--- If Yes, then add Ferro Fibrous, making the engine slightly bigger so it gets one more internal heat sink.
ELSE: No FF for you!

Ferro Fibrous is very self explanatory. It's just something to look at. It will save you 1-2 tons. But will cost 14 criticals.
That's it. After that it's all math.

It has no in game special properties at all. None.
But I do agree a lot of builds I see posted on Smurfy's have 14+ free critical slots. A lot of people don't even think to add ferro fibrous, but I have some heavy builds that use it (those builds also have endo steel).

The original poster IS correct however that, on non-lights, you can rarely fit both an XL and Ferro Fibrous on.
But they are really very different considerations. An XL engine is about saving 5-15 tons at the cost of side torso death.
Ferro Fibrous is about 1-2 more tons, at the cost of critical space.

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 20 September 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

Drop the CASE and you can mount a 250 standard engine

Edit: That gives you one more engine heatsink which can make a huge difference in Heat - but I can see why someone would prefer the safety of the CASE....

AC20 rounds exploding would mean a fatal cascade of damage ripping your engine to shreds. That case has saved my *** more than once (except for that one time it failed to contain the damage and one of my medium lasers exploded (however that happened))

[Roughneck45]

That OP talks up ferro wayyyy too much.

Ferro is a stacking upgrade. You only want it after you have endo, and only if you can use the tonnage and can spare the crits.

You can't really "swap" XL engines for Ferro. The weight saved from an XL is far greater than that from Ferro.