44 replies to this topic

[Tweaks]

Biglead, on 20 September 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

"Aliens"

That's gotta be it... Aliens took it... uh wait, what?

[DjKonline]

What about making Ferro-Fibrous dampen the seismic? this would make it a more viable option to upgrade on a mech as well as give a counter

[Tweaks]

My point is that it would need to be a form of upgrade that is applied on the chassis, and not just an electronic module. Maybe a new special type of ferro-fibrous armor with a special internal stealth coating that reduces vibrations, much like on submarines today... That would be more plausible, although I don't think it's very canon...

[Biglead]

Tweaks, on 20 September 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

My point is that it would need to be a form of upgrade that is applied on the chassis, and not just an electronic module. Maybe a new special type of ferro-fibrous armor with a special internal stealth coating that reduces vibrations, much like on submarines today... That would be more plausible, although I don't think it's very canon...

Los Tech Gyro? For better control and stabalazation while reducing seismic output.

[Tweaks]

Biglead, on 20 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Los Tech Gyro? For better control and stabalazation while reducing seismic output.

That would work, but would also be extremely expensive.

[Wascot]

I'm liking the other ideas posted, but don't forget that any suitable counter must be equivalent to seismic in terms of cost. It must also weigh nothing and cost zero slots. You also cannot use both for balance reasons (if it does come in the form of a mech part/module).

Modo44, on 20 September 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

A direct one: It does not show you when in the air or stationary.

Good light pilots have learned to start (and often end) the jump outside of the enemy with Seismic, thereby completely fooling it. If you have a high-alpha cheese build, stopping in good locations will score you free kills -- especially on people with Seismic, who think nothing is in front of them/around a corner. Quit whining, learn to play.

That only applies if the light pilot knows the enemy mech is there to begin with. If you're going in blind with only the general knowledge that the enemy is there, then pray tell how does one jump outside sensor range? You also know it's the blip that gives you away. It doesn't matter whether you try to "juke" them or not, you show up on the grid and you lose the element of surprise. I also have no idea where you got the notion I'm whining. I'm still learning how to play as I never claimed to be a master of this game, but I sure as hell ain't whining.

Gaan Cathal, on 20 September 2013 - 12:12 AM, said:

Honestly, I'd swap from Seismic to this if it was an option. No question. Much more fun taking away other people's crutches than just levelling the playing field by having the same crutch handy.

At least there are some people here more than willing to remove the training wheels. Who needs map awareness when you're safe with the knowledge of having a 250m safety buffer?

Tweaks, on 20 September 2013 - 11:20 AM, said:

That would be more plausible, although I don't think it's very canon...

Balance must come first before canon. Always. Of course the exception would be if MWO is a realistic simulation game and we're obviously not playing that version of MWO.

Edited by Wascot, 20 September 2013 - 02:00 PM.

[Sidekick]

From my point of view, the seismic shoudn´t work while moving with a faster pace than half speed/40kph (whatever is lower) and it shoud work better while stationary.
Right now, it essentially cancels out the usual sensor restrictions and LOS mechanics, quite quintessential if you are running a fast striker (who mustn´t run into an enemy) , a medium flanker, a heavy linemen... jeez.. anyone.


So, I suggest:
- Advanced range 500m should be possible
- only detects mechs properly moving faster than half/40
- only usable while stationary, half speed or 40kph.
- works better on rock, concrete or solid ice, less effective on sand, swamps, snow
- ineffecive in water

[Tweaks]

Wascot, on 20 September 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Balance must come first before canon. Always. Of course the exception would be if MWO is a realistic simulation game and we're obviously not playing that version of MWO.

Totally wrong. Balance means tweaking the current system, while staying within canon boundaries as much as possible. If there was nothing in canon to "counter seismic sensors", then I don't think it should be implemented at all. That said, if there is a form of it in canon, then it could be implemented and adapted to satisfy balance needs (without morphing it beyond recognition that is).

Sidekick, on 20 September 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

So, I suggest:
- Advanced range 500m should be possible
- only detects mechs properly moving faster than half/40
- only usable while stationary, half speed or 40kph.
- works better on rock, concrete or solid ice, less effective on sand, swamps, snow
- ineffecive in water

I agree with some of the points in there, with some modifications:

- By default, seismic sensor would only work while immobile, and only detect and monitor up to 6 seismic signatures at a time at a range of 180 meters.

- The first upgrade (Adv. Seismic Sensor 1/2), would increase the range by 30% (234 meters), and allow the tracking of up to 9 targets at a time. You would still have to be immobile to track them.

- The final upgrade (Adv. Seismic Sensor 2/2), would increase the range by another 30% (304 meters), allow for a maximum of 12 seismic signatures to be tracked, and also allow for detection while moving under 60% of your top speed, but only for 'Mechs on or under 40 tons (lights and some mediums only). Everything bigger needs to stay still for the sensor to not get confused with your own steps. This means that this final upgrade level would be more beneficial on scouts (an actual role based upgrade).

- As suggested above, it would work better on surfaces that can propagate vibrations better (as per true physics). The softer and more sound absorbing the surface is, the fainter the signal would be.

- The colour and/or size of the signatures should match the strength and size of the detected object. For example, stronger signatures would show as bright red while faint ones would show in light orange. Bigger objects would show bigger dots and smaller ones smaller dots.

I think the range of 500 meters is too much though. It wasn't nerfed for nothing.

Edited by Tweaks, 20 September 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[Sephlock]

Yes, let's nerf the nerfed module even harder!

Anyone who disagrees just "wants a wallhack!"

(I don't even use it anymore, just FYI. I don't need a "wallhack" with astigmatism, and it wasn't the end of the world when it was in it's full glory, either.)

Forget about making other modules good.

In fact, it is well known that there is a very strong political element in the Battletech novels- therefore, MW:O should consist primarily of politics rather than fighting at all. The most OP "weapon" should be a scathing editorial that claims that Victor Steiner-Davion said "bury the *****" when his mother died.

Reactor online, sensors online, word processor online, all systems nominal.

[Wascot]

Tweaks, on 20 September 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Totally wrong. Balance means tweaking the current system, while staying within canon boundaries as much as possible. If there was nothing in canon to "counter seismic sensors", then I don't think it should be implemented at all. That said, if there is a form of it in canon, then it could be implemented and adapted to satisfy balance needs (without morphing it beyond recognition that is).

I'm not really familiar with MW/BT lore, but from what I've gathered on the forums it's pretty much been butchered to all hell at this point. May as well keep on balancing regardless of lore to keep gameplay even.

Sephlock, on 20 September 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

Yes, let's nerf the nerfed module even harder!

Anyone who disagrees just "wants a wallhack!"

(I don't even use it anymore, just FYI. I don't need a "wallhack" with astigmatism, and it wasn't the end of the world when it was in it's full glory, either.)

Forget about making other modules good.

Your rant aside, how exactly is this a nerf to seismic? Barring other suggestions, mine doesn't involve touching sensor at all. Maybe the fact it has gotten nerfed meant it was OP to begin with? Maybe the fact that there is actually some discussion about this shows that this "nerfed" module can still use some tweaking?

I find quite amusing how a nerfed module is still considered the best module to use. I don't use Seismic either, but I fully acknowledge I'm just being stubborn and putting myself at a disadvantage doing so.

"Anyone who disagrees just "wants a wallhack!""
Care to provide an alternate explanation as to why people would be against a counter for it then? I do like hearing both sides of the argument when the opposition isn't busy throwing feces at mine.

[Modo44]

Wascot, on 20 September 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

That only applies if the light pilot knows the enemy mech is there to begin with. If you're going in blind with only the general knowledge that the enemy is there, then pray tell how does one jump outside sensor range?

Oh, gosh, it takes skill to avoid being detected in a game with huge emphasis on situational awareness. This is not really a suggestion, this is you bitching about "OP" game mechanic. I request the topic to be moved to the "Game Balance" forum where it belongs.

[Tweaks]

Wascot, on 20 September 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

I'm not really familiar with MW/BT lore, but from what I've gathered on the forums it's pretty much been butchered to all hell at this point. May as well keep on balancing regardless of lore to keep gameplay even.

It's not been butchered. It's been adapted to fit a live action game as opposed to a turn-based/table-top game. Big difference. It's one thing to take something that is in the lore and modifying or adjusting it slightly to fit the game, but it's another to introduce something totally new that doesn't exist in any form in the lore. That's what I mean. They are still following some sort of timeline that matches the BT lore timeline and if a piece of equipment didn't exist yet at the time the game is set to now, it won't be introduced. For example, anything that was introduced by Clans won't be in the game until Clans are introduced to begin with.

[Sephlock]

Wascot, on 20 September 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

Your rant aside, how exactly is this a nerf to seismic?

Implementing modules specifically designed to counter it?

Quote

Barring other suggestions, mine doesn't involve touching sensor at all. Maybe the fact it has gotten nerfed meant it was OP to begin with? Maybe the fact that there is actually some discussion about this shows that this "nerfed" module can still use some tweaking?

Maybe the fact that Lplas got nerfed means it was OP to begin with... maybe the fact that LRM5s got nerfed means they were op to begin with... or.. maybe it just means that in the former case the Devs were evening the numbers out because math is hard, and in the latter case people cried enough about them that the Devs were spurred into action.

Maybe the fact that people are still whining about LRMs to this day means-

No, no it doesn't. All it means is that players whining about what killed them is a phenomenon that will be with us as long as video games exist.

I stopped keeping track a while back, but IIRC the claims were getting more and more absurd, to the point where one guy was claiming his full armored Atlas was cored in one LRM volley, which could only happen if all the armor was put on the rear torso sections and he was running an XL engine.

Quote

I find quite amusing how a nerfed module is still considered the best module to use. I don't use Seismic either, but I fully acknowledge I'm just being stubborn and putting myself at a disadvantage doing so.

Maybe if the other modules were a bit less poopy... ?

And are you really spending that much time playing speeder bike in 12 v 12?



Generally if you aren't in a light mech or playing the hill humping/terrain (ab)use game, you round a corner into a firing squad, and/or get off one shot before the entire enemy team turns around, and...



... Incidentally, the seismic range nerf is one of the reasons why the former happens- prior to that, you could spot a blip or two, then run to safety. Yeah, they could see you too if they had seismic- but you had obstacles and a fair amount of distance between you, and presumably you'd be in the faster mech (a scout mech), so.... yeah.

Also, AGAIN: If the other modules were better, the odds would be greater that the scout would be able to see the enemy, whereas the enemy would not be able to see it unless it was also a scout, because non scouts would be using the other modules...

Quote

"Anyone who disagrees just "wants a wallhack!""
Care to provide an alternate explanation as to why people would be against a counter for it then? I do like hearing both sides of the argument when the opposition isn't busy throwing feces at mine.

Hmm... maybe they don't want more mandatory equipment? If they simply made the other modules equally as good (or roughly so, since they'd need to be good in different situations), then the only mandatory thing would be "cramming something into that module slot", and even then I guess you wouldn't really NEED them.

That being opposed to either taking Seismic or anti-seismic, and LOOOOOOOLing at the guys with artillery strikes, etc.

Well, I guess we already the LOLing part ;P.

Edited by Sephlock, 21 September 2013 - 02:24 PM.

[Wascot]

Modo44, on 20 September 2013 - 09:50 PM, said:

Oh, gosh, it takes skill to avoid being detected in a game with huge emphasis on situational awareness. This is not really a suggestion, this is you bitching about "OP" game mechanic. I request the topic to be moved to the "Game Balance" forum where it belongs.

You are aware that without ECM, you light up like a christmas tree once someone establishes LOS at <800m without any boosts right? And for a game with a supposed "huge emphasis on situational awareness," why have a module that let's you have a free 360 degree wallhack? Where's the situational awareness in knowing you are safe from any flanking mechs within a certain radius? Where's the skill? Why is there a huge disparity between the "skill" it takes to avoid being detected, and the "skill" it takes to detect an enemy within 'x' radius? Why must it be so much easier for the mech using the module?

Tweaks, on 21 September 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

It's not been butchered. It's been adapted to fit a live action game as opposed to a turn-based/table-top game. Big difference. It's one thing to take something that is in the lore and modifying or adjusting it slightly to fit the game, but it's another to introduce something totally new that doesn't exist in any form in the lore. That's what I mean. They are still following some sort of timeline that matches the BT lore timeline and if a piece of equipment didn't exist yet at the time the game is set to now, it won't be introduced. For example, anything that was introduced by Clans won't be in the game until Clans are introduced to begin with.

Fair enough, but at the same time I doubt the TT game has modules/equipment/etc that can account for the nuances of an fps game. Wouldn't it then be reasonable to implement new equipment that breaks canon, but better suits the fps landscape? I'm not hellbent on getting my suggestion implemented, but I am hellbent on getting this module balanced/tweaked in some capacity. I'll be satisfied if I can accomplish that much.

Sephlock, on 21 September 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

Well, I guess we already the LOLing part ;P.

At this point I think it's safe to say you're just trolling. Though I do commend you on the amount of effort you put in writing up a bunch of nonsense. I really need to get better at that to make writing term papers a lot easier.

[KharnZor]

Syllogy, on 20 September 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

The only counter to Seismic Sensors is to be very very quiet.

Presenting: Bunny Slippers

I was going to ask how the actual module would dampen the shock-waves but thankfully you have provided the best answer.

Seriously though, how would a module like this work? cause i dunno. Maybe the bunny slippers or big rubber thongs.

[DjKonline]

bringing this back on track how about a consumable that makes dummy seismic readings ( or in that regard heat or inferred to take out night vision )

[Sephlock]

Wascot, on 21 September 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

At this point I think it's safe to say you're just trolling. Though I do commend you on the amount of effort you put in writing up a bunch of nonsense. I really need to get better at that to make writing term papers a lot easier.

You don't LOL @ the guys who are taking artillery strikes?

Or did you just skim the post?

[Dirus Nigh]

It did not take me very long to realize that the sensor should be a deploy able sensor like the UAV, except fired like a NARC. THis way you can have it land to watch a specific location on a map. It is not with the pilot showing were every thing around him/her is. And most importantly, PGI could create more modules around it and pilot XP unlocks.

The true counter to the seismic sensor is more seismic activity.

1) Terrain effects should register on the sensor. IE The silly drilling platforms in conquest mode. Ice falling by the cave on frozen city, the water fall on Forest colony, Terra Therma and caustic valley in general.

2) Most importantly ALL MECH MOVIEMENT!!! If you want to use your seismic sensor you must stand still. All friendly foot falls should show up on it.

3) Type of ground should effect the sensor. The density of the terrain should shorten the range, and cause the sensor to give delayed updates. Eleveation should also be considered. If a mech is walking around on top of a very large building then a mech standing in an adjacent grid square should not pick it up.

Edited by Dirus Nigh, 22 September 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Be happy that we don t have the radar we had in MW2, MW3, MW4 and etc.... Was kinda hard to hide from it (if i remember).

I love the seismic and i m still able to ambush someone.

[Nidhoggr]

Seismic is fine as it is. It gives you a reason to stop moving (i.e. to avoid seismic detection) which is something that I think gets often overlooked. Standing still becomes a dynamic in itself as long as a strong seismic sensor exists. In a step to increase the dynamics of the game, I side with the idea that there should just be a seismic countering consumable (not a module). Perhaps something like a "sonic grenade". It could be a UAV-type consumable that overloads the sensor and in the process makes using the minimap (for those who have seismic equipped) unreadable for the duration of the effect. Under this arrangement, people will still use seismic because there won't be an always-on counter to it (if there was an damper module it could potentially kill seismic use off entirely), but at the same time you would have the option to equip a limited use consumable that could come in handy right before making a big push.