139 replies to this topic

[DarkElf]

Arthas Latstrong, on 14 June 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

I believe everyone is thinking too small and underrating omnimechs. Sure there's airsupport, sure they are tall. But remember omnimech fantasy was being thought about in the late 80's and slowly progressed through a story to now and not being updated to today technological standards and more intriguingly 1000 years from now. I don't want to overthrow everyone here but you can't think of these things as walking tanks that you saw in MW2, 3, and 4. You have to see them as almost transformers like.

Let's get perspective in place. We now talk about regenerative armor, stealth technology, gyroscopic movement, heavy lasers and PPCs; technology we know of now. What about the robots that can maneuver over rocks, carry heavy loads, and navigate to a destination without a pilot. Next let's think about a cheetah or a professional Olympic runner. Think about how they maneuver between and over obstacles, leaning and gripping on the ground to get around trees, rocks, and debris. Also equip that runner with some autocannons, med lasers, and SSRMs. Next dropship a bushwacker, centurion, raven, and uziel at night behind enemy lines undetected. They rush through and reap havoc taking on an entire base or city with no effort. Auto tracking/targeting, thermal vision, regenerative armor, auto sensing movement so they the pilot has no problem running at full throttle through a city. Fluid movement on the guns to take on targets as the gyroscope keeps it stable. Tanks are being destroyed, infantry killed by MG fire. Undetected with raven ECM and ECCM. City conquered, base destroyed.

Sure it's not gonna be a walk in the park, limbs will be lost on the omnimechs, ammo will run dry, maybe a mech won't come back. But to act alone as a single strike unit with only four weapons platforms? You can't put a price on that.

I believe you are thinking to small. If human keep expanding and researching new tech, if human have hyperdrive and able to colonize other planet, why ever bother to build a mech for a war?

Build 1 giant drop ship, jump in, destroy the entire planet from a far or make the star go supernova.

[Tterrag]

DarkElf, on 14 June 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I believe you are thinking to small. If human keep expanding and researching new tech, if human have hyperdrive and able to colonize other planet, why ever bother to build a mech for a war?

Build 1 giant drop ship, jump in, destroy the entire planet from a far or make the star go supernova.

I'd imagine they would still want the planet but yeah

[Tterrag]

Speaking of wiping out planets with minimal damage to the actual planet has there ever been any talk on books out lore about biological warfare?

[BenEEeees VAT GROWN BACON]

BduSlammer, on 14 June 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

guys that was not a tank that hit the car but a bradley armored fighting veh or Apc

An IFV is a tank, and APCs sometimes are tanks that have been converted into troop transport (like the old ones the Israelis used). Fundamentally, any engine covered by tons of armour, moves on tracks and has a gun mounted on it can be classified as a tank.

[frankyes]

DarkElf, on 14 June 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I believe you are thinking to small. If human keep expanding and researching new tech, if human have hyperdrive and able to colonize other planet, why ever bother to build a mech for a war?

Build 1 giant drop ship, jump in, destroy the entire planet from a far or make the star go supernova.

Where's the fun in that

[alguien]

Gigadouche, on 14 June 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Go tell that to a tanker who just broke track on a small rock. It happens alot.

Seeing as how technology seems to take great leaps in short amounts of time, I could see tanks with walking legs being really quite useful. Think about it. If the technology was there to make a very dextrous walking machine, and efficiently and cheaply, then yes it would probably make tracked tanks obsolete. Theres no need to prove the effectiveness of walking vs. rolling, the evidence is all around us in nature. The trick is making the technology to replicate it on a mechanical vehicle a practical solution.

I am sure a tanker will have a better time fixing a track over a guy having to jump out of his mech because it tripped in a swarm, or it crashed because the ground was unable to support his mech weight, or was destroyed because it could be see from kilometers away

but yeah, i guess if you could create a mech magically stronger and cheaper than a tank then yes, i guess with magic mechs will rule the battlefield, but what happens if you use magic on a tank?

[Tterrag]

alguien, on 14 June 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I am sure a tanker will have a better time fixing a track over a guy having to jump out of his mech because it tripped in a swarm, or it crashed because the ground was unable to support his mech weight, or was destroyed because it could be see from kilometers away

but yeah, i guess if you could create a mech magically stronger and cheaper than a tank then yes, i guess with magic mechs will rule the battlefield, but what happens if you use magic on a tank?

I'd imagine magic aside that it would be more difficult to find a mechs faulty party than a changing a tread but then again the f field bases could repair a mech completely in a few minutes

[DarkElf]

Arthas Latstrong, on 14 June 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

Where's the fun in that

Less war but more time to play the next instalment of MWO and debating in forum are there real world mech application in another 1000 year in the future while waiting for beta key the next next instalment of MWO?

Edited by DarkElf, 14 June 2012 - 06:16 PM.

[CapnTytePantz]

The smaller ones, perhaps. The big ones, hell no! As some other folks have pointed out, big mechs mean big targets. With the vast number of anti-armor munitions, usually equipped with "smart" guidance systems, big mechs would be sitting ducks. Best military platform would be something like "Hawken" or the "Gekkos" on Metal Gear 4. If they could maneuver and scale obstacles like that, they would be a valuable asset for deploying heavy munitions forward of the main battle lines, in force or covertly. Quuadrupedal platforms, or bipedal with support struts, would be great for forward operating support/artillery platforms. Smaller autonomous "dogs" would be excellent scouts and/or small unit/fire-team support (a.k.a. pack mules and attack "dogs"). Sorry to say, however, I doubt any would be manned. Drones are the future. No space needed for a cockpit and life support systems = more room for weapons systems and/or sensor equipment...and no loss of life should it go "BOOM!" Best use for manned mechs = construction. Just sayin'.

[CapnTytePantz]

Here's an example. Obviously the sound problem would need to be fixed/muffled, but with cold fusion, no problemo, right???

[Tterrag]

CapnTytePantz, on 14 June 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

The smaller ones, perhaps. The big ones, hell no! As some other folks have pointed out, big mechs mean big targets. With the vast number of anti-armor munitions, usually equipped with "smart" guidance systems, big mechs would be sitting ducks. Best military platform would be something like "Hawken" or the "Gekkos" on Metal Gear 4. If they could maneuver and scale obstacles like that, they would be a valuable asset for deploying heavy munitions forward of the main battle lines, in force or covertly. Quuadrupedal platforms, or bipedal with support struts, would be great for forward operating support/artillery platforms. Smaller autonomous "dogs" would be excellent scouts and/or small unit/fire-team support (a.k.a. pack mules and attack "dogs"). Sorry to say, however, I doubt any would be manned. Drones are the future. No space needed for a cockpit and life support systems = more room for weapons systems and/or sensor equipment...and no loss of life should it go "BOOM!" Best use for manned mechs = construction. Just sayin'.

Indeed war is easier when only they die at the push of a button

[Brunhin Graywind]

DarkElf, on 14 June 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

I believe you are thinking to small. If human keep expanding and researching new tech, if human have hyperdrive and able to colonize other planet, why ever bother to build a mech for a war?

Build 1 giant drop ship, jump in, destroy the entire planet from a far or make the star go supernova.

Tterrag, on 14 June 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

I'd imagine they would still want the planet but yeah

Tterrag, on 14 June 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Speaking of wiping out planets with minimal damage to the actual planet has there ever been any talk on books out lore about biological warfare?

I hate to say it, but you are missing the entire point of mech warfare...

If you actually read any of the books, they use their orbital dropships as semi-mobile battle platforms, they mount so much weaponry they could easily level a city...however, unless you are bent on destroying the entire civilization you are attacking, at some point you will have to move in and participate in ground combat...

Think about it for a second, why is the USA having such problems rooting out terrorists? It is because they [the USA] are NOT willing to nuke the entire area...it is the same thing with orbital bombardment, if you dont mind destroying EVERYTHING in the area you are attacking, go ahead and commence orbital bombardment...but be aware that all the other governments and most of your own country/planet's population will be rioting because you "murdered" millions of innocent civilians by leveling the entire area, not to even mention bio warfare...

Now that I have ragged on you for talking about orbital bombardment and bio warfare as the answer for every military problem, any mechs built in real life would be ALOT smaller than the 60 ft tall monstrosities that you see in the books.

it would be hard to match the size of a wheeled vehicle for scouting, but any "scout mech" would be designed to travel in hilly or mountainous terrain, and might weigh between 20-40 tons (a M-11 may only weigh 3.5 tons but has almost no armoring) but that is with very light armor and not much in the way of weaponry.

The M1 Abram battle tank weighs just under 70 tons, showing that some of the combat vehicles (tanks) in the mech universe are a little understated as well (something like a 40 ton Myrmidon would have such light armor that modern infantry heavy weapons would cut through it like paper)

Any "mech" created for a modern military would probably be based of a modified M1 Abram (or whatever the newest equivalent MBT is) with walker legs replacing the treads, most likely 4-8 legs similar to that small crane...I imagine the legs lifting the "mech" no more than probably 8-10 feet off the ground, meaning the "battle mech" would be no more than around 20 feet tall. The "arms" would most likely be swivel mounted machine guns or auto cannons (anything with a round more than a .57 caliber round is considered an auto cannon not a machine gun). Probably something similar to a M2 Browning for anti-infantry and a M242 Bushmaster for anti-helicopter/anti-light vehicle or heavy infantry suppression.

No matter what it would probably need a crew of at least 2, a pilot and a gunner. I think if would be the most similar to the Blue Flame or maybe the Barghest in appearance, but with maybe twice the number of legs (imagine taking a Barghest and replacing the body with a M1 Abram)

[Steel Rain]

Mechs would have to deal with planes and chopters. these would murder mechs.

[abetterpilot]

window washing, deep sea diving, taking to the drive in come to mind.

[Jayboltz]

alguien, on 14 June 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

but yeah, i guess if you could create a mech magically stronger and cheaper than a tank then yes, i guess with magic mechs will rule the battlefield, but what happens if you use magic on a tank?

Yeah, it'd require the same "magic" they used to "magically" escape the planet's atmosphere and land "magically" on the moon. It's called technology. Just because it doesn't exist yet doesn't mean it can't.

[chungus maximus]

'Mechs aren't very practical in our day and age. I would bet that we will see powered/battle armor on infantry in our lifetimes. It seems like a pretty natural progression and attainable with the way technology is evolving now.

[Blackfire1]

>.> *cough* The military has had "stuff" like this in the works since Nam. Its a matter of powersource. Nothing on this earth at the moment that can give enough juice to make a walking tank viable in military application. Mini fusion reactors cost money and are NOT mobile.
They got stuff. Just need power.

[Tterrag]

Brunhin Graywind, on 14 June 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

I hate to say it, but you are missing the entire point of mech warfare...

If you actually read any of the books, they use their orbital dropships as semi-mobile battle platforms, they mount so much weaponry they could easily level a city...however, unless you are bent on destroying the entire civilization you are attacking, at some point you will have to move in and participate in ground combat...

Think about it for a second, why is the USA having such problems rooting out terrorists? It is because they [the USA] are NOT willing to nuke the entire area...it is the same thing with orbital bombardment, if you dont mind destroying EVERYTHING in the area you are attacking, go ahead and commence orbital bombardment...but be aware that all the other governments and most of your own country/planet's population will be rioting because you "murdered" millions of innocent civilians by leveling the entire area, not to even mention bio warfare...

Now that I have ragged on you for talking about orbital bombardment and bio warfare as the answer for every military problem, any mechs built in real life would be ALOT smaller than the 60 ft tall monstrosities that you see in the books.

it would be hard to match the size of a wheeled vehicle for scouting, but any "scout mech" would be designed to travel in hilly or mountainous terrain, and might weigh between 20-40 tons (a M-11 may only weigh 3.5 tons but has almost no armoring) but that is with very light armor and not much in the way of weaponry.

The M1 Abram battle tank weighs just under 70 tons, showing that some of the combat vehicles (tanks) in the mech universe are a little understated as well (something like a 40 ton Myrmidon would have such light armor that modern infantry heavy weapons would cut through it like paper)

Any "mech" created for a modern military would probably be based of a modified M1 Abram (or whatever the newest equivalent MBT is) with walker legs replacing the treads, most likely 4-8 legs similar to that small crane...I imagine the legs lifting the "mech" no more than probably 8-10 feet off the ground, meaning the "battle mech" would be no more than around 20 feet tall. The "arms" would most likely be swivel mounted machine guns or auto cannons (anything with a round more than a .57 caliber round is considered an auto cannon not a machine gun). Probably something similar to a M2 Browning for anti-infantry and a M242 Bushmaster for anti-helicopter/anti-light vehicle or heavy infantry suppression.

No matter what it would probably need a crew of at least 2, a pilot and a gunner. I think if would be the most similar to the Blue Flame or maybe the Barghest in appearance, but with maybe twice the number of legs (imagine taking a Barghest and replacing the body with a M1 Abram)

Just for future reference I don't approve of or support the use of biological warfare I was just curious if it had ever been referenced in the lore. and when you do an orbital strike you wipe out the enemy military bases to destroy the composure of your enemy and by only targeting the military installations you avoid the storm killing civys that have nothing to do with the fight.

Edited by Tterrag, 14 June 2012 - 07:29 PM.

[Tterrag]

Oh and I'm not sure that all the various houses really care enough to no bomb the crap out of innocent people they seem to have the people not from my country are beastly mentality

[Dataman]

the problem with mech in real life is they expose their weakness. legs. put a good shot with anti tank cannon and they're done. even in BT, a good shot from PPC mounted myrmidon tank is quite enough to take down a med mech.

oh and we haven't find a way to make a proper walk mech, let alone balance its step



see that video. Japanese invent a mech. but the movement looks stiff.

btw, I think the first sector to gain benefit from mech is construction and mining.