49 replies to this topic

[TheFlyingScotsman]

The only players who load massive front-load builds are the kind who have a hard time surviving long enough to be effective. It's better to use a more moderated mech and play it conservatively.

Hell, I usually manage to go through all 5T of my AC20 ammo on my BJ-1, and it's my best performer. The only way to be truly effective is to survive as long as possible while getting as much exposure to targets and maintaining accuracy.

This isn't an fps, it's a strategy game. Bluntness may get short-term kills, but is overall very ineffective unless your opponent doesn't know how to play.

[Deathlike]

I can't vote since it doesn't have the answer I'm looking for.

I do both, but prefer front loaded damage with backup dakka for sustainable damage before getting back into cover.

[Pale Jackal]

Probably front-loaded, since even before the days of PPC+Gauss poptarts, I used to use a 4 LL CTF-3D to good effect by staying at range. Front-loaded minimizes your exposure, and gives you time to maneuver / run away during cool-down.

I also recently tried an 18 DHS X-5 with 4 ML and 2 SSRM2. While the ability to fire forever without over-heating is nice, it feels inefficient whenever you're not in a prolonged melee. So, I'm trying the hotter, but more front-loaded, 4 MPULSE and 2 SRM4 design with 13 DHS.

However, I do like the allure of high DPS weapons. It's good design when the high DPS weapon isn't king, because of practical considerations. Conversely, you do want the higher DPS weapons to be viable - nobody wants 2 AC20 Jaegers to dominate, either.

I certainly don't want front-loaded weapons to dominate, but striking then fading away is always fun.

[Artgathan]

There's a balance point to be struck between DPS and FLD. I build most of my mechs to be able to deal 150-200 damage in about 20 seconds (after 20 seconds I need to start managing my heat). While heat efficiency is nice, a mech with a high sustained DPS will lose in 1v1 to a mech with a high FLD (since the DPS mech won't live long enough to unleash it's full potential).

[DaZur]

Deathlike, on 20 September 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I can't vote since it doesn't have the answer I'm looking for.

I do both, but prefer front loaded damage with backup dakka for sustainable damage before getting back into cover.

By your description I'd probably categorize it as "balanced".

[Odins Fist]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 20 September 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

The only players who load massive front-load builds are the kind who have a hard time surviving long enough to be effective. It's better to use a more moderated mech and play it conservatively.

I disagree with part of this statement, you can indeed have a heavy set of wepons that can Alpha quite nicely, and be used seperately to play conservatively, this depends on not using multiples of the same exact heavy weapon. I have a really good front load/Alpha capabiltiy, yet I can play very conservatively until close range engagments start, and still deal the same and more damage. The issue is not with the loadout, but the patience and situational awareness of the pilot.

The argument for sustained fire to achieve it's maximum damage was pretty much over a while ago, but not in a bad way.
EXAMPLES:
#1. The longer you "MUST" stay on target, the longer you are vulnerable to enemy fire.
#2. The longer you are vulnerable to enemy fire the more likely you are to be fired upon, and the more likely you will be target by additional enemy mechs. (range dependant)
#3. The longer you "MUST" stay on target, and depending on type (and amount of that type) of weapon being used can possibly create heat issues equivalent or worse than larger weapons.
#4. The large amount of ballistic ammo needed (if using ballistic weapons) can set the stage for an ammo explosion.
#5. The ability to hit and damage one specific area on an enemy mech (especially if it's manuevering) takes more practice.
#6. Repeated or sustained fire can and will give away your position regardless of what weapon system is used.
.
The ability to deal the maximum amount of damage in the shortest period of time is a distinct advantage, but it's not OP, it's smart. To be able to "Stick and Move" is key, on more than one occasion I have been in a match where the multiple UAC-5, and AC-2 equiped mechs have wreaked havoc, until they they are either engaged at close range and or have a couple lights circle them, "OR" they run out of ammo.
.
Some ballistic weapons have a distinct advantage in range over the work-horse, the medium laser, that is until the distance is closed, then depending on how many Med Lasers are on the enemy it is a close match up. Same can be said for larger energy weapons.
.
As far as UAC-5 and AC-2 is concerned, you can wear them down, make them deplete their ammo and then finish them off, if you can last that long against the enemy "TEAM" to do so.
.
One of the combos that I have seen win many matches are ER-LL, ER-PPC, AC-20 on something that isn't on sub 65-70 KPH mechs. Harass the enemy team, and deal some damage at fairly long ranges, harass them to the point of making them get sick of taking fire so they move in on you, then unleash the AC-20. Try doing this by going from cover to cover, making any multiple UAC-5 or AC-2 mech work for his targets, and minimizing his damage potential (even if he is Alpha firing).
When crossing open ground and being fired upon by such AC mechs, if you have an ERLL try firing back at him (if distance permits), target his cockpit if possible, this will temporarily obscure his vision to a degree, and while it may do very little or no damage it will help to throw off his aim.. It's not much, but again it will be one more thing that may improve your odds, and is an old trick. The AC cockpit shake from being hit can make this tough for some.
.
As far as high damage lower sustained fire of large energy & ballistic weapons are concerned, they have their advantages and disadvantages as well, but I find spending as little time as possible on target to deal damage to be optimal for hurting, and or killing an enemy mech.
.
Pretty much common sense if you look carefully if you look at the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon system and how it is managed in terms of heat and ammunition.

Edited by Odins Fist, 20 September 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Front Loaded Damage wins every single time unless you are do very, very team centric swarming tactics.

[TychoTheItinerant]

Frontload is more important because of the narrow windows of opportunity presented (unless the enemy is completely oblivious/indifferent to your presence). Sustained damage assumes your enemy will be consistently making himself a good target for extended periods of time, and assumes you will have the luxury of time on a battlefield where someone else is almost certainly going to decide to gun for you if they think you are distracted. The less time you are exposed to enemy fire while dishing out your damage potential, the better.

[Sephlock]

I love DPS but I accept that FLD is better in many cases (or at least, it WAS, and remains so in theory).

[Suspect]

I have more fun in my FLD builds. dakka wub wub isn't for me.

[Royalewithcheese]

It's all about the big alpha, especially now that the UAC/5 is no longer the destroyer of worlds that it used to be. Gotta be torso-twisting/ridgehumping/jetting/peeking, and alpha builds are the best at capitalizing on that.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Odins Fist, on 20 September 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

I disagree with part of this statement, you can indeed have a heavy set of wepons that can Alpha quite nicely, and be used seperately to play conservatively, this depends on not using multiples of the same exact heavy weapon. I have a really good front load/Alpha capabiltiy, yet I can play very conservatively until close range engagments start, and still deal the same and more damage. The issue is not with the loadout, but the patience and situational awareness of the pilot.

The argument for sustained fire to achieve it's maximum damage was pretty much over a while ago, but not in a bad way.
EXAMPLES:
#1. The longer you "MUST" stay on target, the longer you are vulnerable to enemy fire.
#2. The longer you are vulnerable to enemy fire the more likely you are to be fired upon, and the more likely you will be target by additional enemy mechs. (range dependant)
#3. The longer you "MUST" stay on target, and depending on type (and amount of that type) of weapon being used can possibly create heat issues equivalent or worse than larger weapons.
#4. The large amount of ballistic ammo needed (if using ballistic weapons) can set the stage for an ammo explosion.
#5. The ability to hit and damage one specific area on an enemy mech (especially if it's manuevering) takes more practice.
#6. Repeated or sustained fire can and will give away your position regardless of what weapon system is used.
.
The ability to deal the maximum amount of damage in the shortest period of time is a distinct advantage, but it's not OP, it's smart. To be able to "Stick and Move" is key, on more than one occasion I have been in a match where the multiple UAC-5, and AC-2 equiped mechs have wreaked havoc, until they they are either engaged at close range and or have a couple lights circle them, "OR" they run out of ammo.
.
Some ballistic weapons have a distinct advantage in range over the work-horse, the medium laser, that is until the distance is closed, then depending on how many Med Lasers are on the enemy it is a close match up. Same can be said for larger energy weapons.
.
As far as UAC-5 and AC-2 is concerned, you can wear them down, make them deplete their ammo and then finish them off, if you can last that long against the enemy "TEAM" to do so.
.
One of the combos that I have seen win many matches are ER-LL, ER-PPC, AC-20 on something that isn't on sub 65-70 KPH mechs. Harass the enemy team, and deal some damage at fairly long ranges, harass them to the point of making them get sick of taking fire so they move in on you, then unleash the AC-20. Try doing this by going from cover to cover, making any multiple UAC-5 or AC-2 mech work for his targets, and minimizing his damage potential (even if he is Alpha firing).
When crossing open ground and being fired upon by such AC mechs, if you have an ERLL try firing back at him (if distance permits), target his cockpit if possible, this will temporarily obscure his vision to a degree, and while it may do very little or no damage it will help to throw off his aim.. It's not much, but again it will be one more thing that may improve your odds, and is an old trick. The AC cockpit shake from being hit can make this tough for some.
.
As far as high damage lower sustained fire of large energy & ballistic weapons are concerned, they have their advantages and disadvantages as well, but I find spending as little time as possible on target to deal damage to be optimal for hurting, and or killing an enemy mech.
.
Pretty much common sense if you look carefully if you look at the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon system and how it is managed in terms of heat and ammunition.

Then your build is balanced, not just a front-end whaler. I use an AC20 and 2ml on my BJ-1, and play it conservatively. Some people might call it a boat or a front-ender, but that isn't what it is. What I was talking about is builds such as 3-5AC2, dual AC20 exe.

:3

[Charons Little Helper]

It also depends how durable you are. For example - an Atlas can get away with more DPS - because they aren't going to die too fast to take advantage of slightly more long-term damage.

Edited by Charons Little Helper, 20 September 2013 - 01:59 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

TheFlyingScotsman, on 20 September 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

Then your build is balanced, not just a front-end whaler. I use an AC20 and 2ml on my BJ-1, and play it conservatively. Some people might call it a boat or a front-ender, but that isn't what it is. What I was talking about is builds such as 3-5AC2, dual AC20 exe.

:3

Those can have longevity IMO, as long as you carry enough ammo that you run out of things to shoot before you run out things to shoot them with

[Corpsecandle]

Ultimately my opinion depends on how much armor I have remaining, so I picked balance.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I tend to build mechs across this spectrum, so Burst some DPS. However recently I have tried to adhere to the 20 second rule. I want to be able to stustain fire for a full 20 seconds before overheating, this is what I determined to be a practical TTL (time to live) for myself or my opponent. The heat tax has modified my builds slightly because mechs survive longer and get to closer range, so I have stared carrying a dual-range loadout, so I can double-down if necessary.

I think part of the reason I like balanced builds is mobility, many high Burst lack mobility, which is why I never ventured into the 6 PPC teritory.

[RandomLurker]

Without front loading, you are forced to sit on the sidelines during a fight-from cover. Without DPS, you are dead if caught in the open. So, balanced.

[Christof Romulus]

I voted Front-load damage, despite the fact I would prefer DPS.

Here's the deal, that I think everyone already understands: PVP, regardless of the game (World of Warcraft, EVE, Everquest, CounterStrike, The Old Republic, World of Tanks, etc.), ALWAYS favors burst damage, compared to damage over time. EVEN IF YOUR DPS is lower using burst damage when compared to sustained damage, it is the way that damage is distributed is always the deciding factor in PVP.

Example; which is better - doing 1000 damage instantly and having a 10 second cooldown, or doing 100 damage a second for 10 seconds with no cooldown? - After all, EACH are 100 DPS.

The answer is obviously dealing 1000 damage NOW and having a 10 second cooldown, but WHY? The reasons are simple. What it comes down to is "reactions". If you are dealing 100 damage a second over TEN SECONDS that means that whoever you are attacking has TEN SECONDS to respond in ANY WAY THEY SEE FIT before you deal your full amount of damage. This could take the form of anything, depending on the game you're playing - a counterspell, or healing, or breaking line of sight, or even DAMAGING YOU BACK. But if you deal ALL 1000 damage now - there is no reaction between the time you initiated the damage, and the time you completed dealing your damage: THERE IS NO REACTION, there is no choice the receiving player has.

What if your target only has 800 health left? He gets 8 seconds to heal, or fight back, if you're dealing damage spread over time, but dealing 1000 damage now? He's dead and you're moving to the next target.

This is spelled out time and time again in games that have PVP - Counterstrike had the AWP, The Old Republic had Force Leap, World of Tanks had the T-30, and so on, and so on, and so on. It is removing your opponent's ability to respond to the damage that you deal that is almost always the deciding factor in ALL FORMS OF PVP, whether you're in a fantasy realm, in a tank, on the ocean, or in a Mech.

I'm sorry to say, this is just the way PVP IS, it has nothing to do with the specific game that's being played, it's just something that's intrinsic to a player vs player struggle.

[Devils Advocate]

Front loaded damage is superior in every firefight. In a skirmish you get all of your damage out while the other guy only gets some of his, and in a brawl unless the stable DPS guy has a massively higher DPS than you the frontloading is probably going to win you the fight.

Fight starts->
I do 10 damage you do 2 damage. I'm ahead of you by 8 damage.
You do 2 damage.
You do 2 damage.
You do 2 damage.
You do 2 damage.
I do 10 damage you do 2 damage. I'm ahead of you by 8 damage again.

In any situation where that 8 extra damage kills you I'm coming out on top.


There is a situation, however, where the DPS of a stable build is more useful, and that's when your enemies are vulnerable. If you already have a piece of internals in the orange or red I can just kind of generally shoot all over you and put you at a great risk of dying than taking one hefty shot and hoping it hits the one component it needs to. Lasers are scarier than ACs when your internals are about to go. Also if you are in a position where you are encountering multiple enemies and you need to be able to switch gears rapidly to target the newest threat to you. Waiting around 4 seconds for your alpha to reload can spell the end when you're caught inbetween shots.

Edited by Devils Advocate, 20 September 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Unusual Suspect]

If I might play devil's advocate to Devils Advocate's point?

The entire point (and general structure) of a DPS build is that it out DPS's the non-DPS build. In other words, if your DPS is not a greater DPS than the non-DPS build, you aren't properly DPSing.

If your example, a more appropriate theoretical example would be something like this:

Alpha alphas, doing 10 points of damage. Beta DPSs, doing 3 points of damage at the same time. Alpha is on top!
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Uh oh, Beta took the lead!
Alpha alphas again, doing 10 more damage. Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Alpha is top dog again... but not by as much.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Beta caught up again!
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Alpha alphas again, doing 10 more damage. Beta keeps on keepin' on, doing 3 more damage. Alpha is top again... but only by a hair!
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Even game!
etc., etc.

A DPS build, by its nature and design, should overcome an Alpha build's DPS over time. This doesn't necessarily mean it is due to the raw DPS as my own example illustrates. It could just as easily be your example, but with Alpha's build being in "Oh **** What Do You Mean 125% Heat Threshold!?! Mode" while DPS build continues in "Hur Hur Stationary Target DAKKA WUB WUB MODE" and eventually overcomes Alpha's burst DPS with sustained DPS.




That all said, sustained DPS alone is problematic for all the reasons other posters have said: You just don't get that many opportunities to simply hold down the DAKKA button, and keep it held down, on the same part of the same mech while Alpha is waiting for that 4 second cooldown to finish. **** gets complicated fast, and the least of those complications include torso-twisting (Sure, DPS has done 36 damage... over 5 sections. Alpha, meanwhile, hit the CT 2 times out of 3...) and broken line of sight (replace 2 of my examples' "DPS continues" with "DPS sits on thumb actuators and torso-twists while Alpha is behind a rock" and that damage calculus starts to change), let alone the intricate ways cockpit shaking, team dynamics, and psychology interact (I have an open core, that ******* has lasers... **** man, I don't want to turn his way to alpha, I'll be dead before my trigger fingers even thinks about itching!).