49 replies to this topic

[hashinshin]

what was wrong with calling it DPS or burst?

[Lupus Aurelius]

DPS cannot be ignored, but it is not the end all of damage. Nor of a build. Front loaded damage frequently is the different kinds of boating that people complain about, like 3 AC2 builds, Dual Gauss, Dual AC20, or the old 6 Large Laser stalkers or 4-6 ppc Stalkers. Typically they are hot, and have to be able to get to cover quickly to dissipate heat.

Balance builds usually have better heat management, and a variety of ranges that allow for some damage at range, and more as the target gets closer. I always try to have options on my builds, weapons i can rely more at close range to maintain fire, with occasional use of my high heat longer range weapons, My alpha is lower, but I can sustain damage loonger, and so long as I have cover and some decent speed, I can usually mitigate alot of the alpha builds. Besides, if I did my job right, and my team, by the time they are close, they should be heavily damaged.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 20 September 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[Kaspirikay]

Alpha all the way.

[Muffinator]

I prefer doing front load damage over a sustained duration

[MustrumRidcully]

Unusual Suspect, on 20 September 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

If I might play devil's advocate to Devils Advocate's point?

The entire point (and general structure) of a DPS build is that it out DPS's the non-DPS build. In other words, if your DPS is not a greater DPS than the non-DPS build, you aren't properly DPSing.

If your example, a more appropriate theoretical example would be something like this:

Alpha alphas, doing 10 points of damage. Beta DPSs, doing 3 points of damage at the same time. Alpha is on top!
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Uh oh, Beta took the lead!
Alpha alphas again, doing 10 more damage. Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Alpha is top dog again... but not by as much.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Beta caught up again!
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage.
Alpha alphas again, doing 10 more damage. Beta keeps on keepin' on, doing 3 more damage. Alpha is top again... but only by a hair!
Beta continues DPSing, doing 3 more damage. Even game!
etc., etc.

A DPS build, by its nature and design, should overcome an Alpha build's DPS over time. This doesn't necessarily mean it is due to the raw DPS as my own example illustrates. It could just as easily be your example, but with Alpha's build being in "Oh **** What Do You Mean 125% Heat Threshold!?! Mode" while DPS build continues in "Hur Hur Stationary Target DAKKA WUB WUB MODE" and eventually overcomes Alpha's burst DPS with sustained DPS.




That all said, sustained DPS alone is problematic for all the reasons other posters have said: You just don't get that many opportunities to simply hold down the DAKKA button, and keep it held down, on the same part of the same mech while Alpha is waiting for that 4 second cooldown to finish. **** gets complicated fast, and the least of those complications include torso-twisting (Sure, DPS has done 36 damage... over 5 sections. Alpha, meanwhile, hit the CT 2 times out of 3...) and broken line of sight (replace 2 of my examples' "DPS continues" with "DPS sits on thumb actuators and torso-twists while Alpha is behind a rock" and that damage calculus starts to change), let alone the intricate ways cockpit shaking, team dynamics, and psychology interact (I have an open core, that ******* has lasers... **** man, I don't want to turn his way to alpha, I'll be dead before my trigger fingers even thinks about itching!).

The important part for the DPS build is - it must beat the burst/alpha builds total damage output before the fight ends. One important fight ender is running out of hit points.
So if the burst guy can maintain his advantage until the DPS guy'***** points are depleted, he comes out top (on a pile of smoking debris, quite possibly.).
Other "fight enders" are retreats into cover.
So if the burst guy can maintain his advantage until he or the DPS guy move back into cover he comes out top.

So, burst is always great for snipers.
And depending on the amount of hit points everyone involved in fights has, burst can also potentially always be better than sustained DPS, because the "sustainability" advantage comes into play after everyone is dead, so it's irrelevant.

Burst is also great in team play. When 12 burst-focused mechs shoot at 12 sustained DPS mechs, the sustained DPS mechs will take losses early and have little chance of actually using their theoretical advantage. Sure, the enemy will eventually overheat and lose a lot of DPS, but the sustained DPS guys already lost some important comrades (or hit locations) and their advantage is gone.

This game with its high heat threshold and low heat dissipation and the armour values as they are is currently pretty much rigged for burst damage. Ghost Heat can't stop that, because it only looks at alpha strikes, but burst doesn't require alphas (though it can help).

[VIPER2207]

normaly i prefer DPS, but in the actual state of the game, i get the feeling that i'm outgunned when i use dps-focused weapons.

i mean, when you walk around a corner or walk over a summit and you look into the mouths of perhaps 10 PPCs and 5 gauss-rifles, then there is nothing you can do with a dps-focused build (well, besides dying, of course).
i often try to use dps-weapons, but when i am not able to catch a single enemy or to get into the enemys back, then the match won't go good for me.
the only exception is the CTF-4X 'Chainsaw', but i think this build is called "cheese" by the most of the forum-users. with this, you have to catch the first enemy alpha-shot, hope to survive it, and then fire all your weapons in chain-fire... enemy won't be able to see anything, so you can punish him.
using lasers or other weapons against PPCs, GR and AC20 doesn't work for me... sad but true =/

[Charons Little Helper]

I agree with Mustrum - DPS builds generally are better both in brawling (because the other guy can't get away easily) and if they can seperate someone from the team.

And the game is set up so that the FLD damage builds tend to have inferior DPS. And they should - or there'd be no reason to go DPS.

I like that at this point in the game both are finally viable.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Devils Advocate, on 20 September 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Front loaded damage is superior in every firefight. In a skirmish you get all of your damage out while the other guy only gets some of his, and in a brawl unless the stable DPS guy has a massively higher DPS than you the frontloading is probably going to win you the fight.

Fight starts->
I do 10 damage you do 2 damage. I'm ahead of you by 8 damage.
You do 2 damage.
You do 2 damage.
You do 2 damage.
You do 2 damage.
I do 10 damage you do 2 damage. I'm ahead of you by 8 damage again.

This is pending you don't miss. They have more room for error than you. You miss once or twice and you could be behind the 8ball pretty fast.

Edited by GRiPSViGiL, 21 September 2013 - 04:44 AM.

[Mr 144]

Odins Fist, on 20 September 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

As far as UAC-5 and AC-2 is concerned, you can wear them down, make them deplete their ammo and then finish them off, if you can last that long against the enemy "TEAM" to do so.

Good post, but I disagree with this part. Seems like a foolish strategy to me as it's completely dependant on an inferior pilot. I have ~45% combined accuarcy with all 3 of the AC spam weapons...which is not that great, but considering It's spam, OK IMHO. My Ilya for example carries 9 tons of ammo, which means....given my average accuracy...by the time I'm 'depleted' and down to only 3xML, I've done ~500 damage on average...again, not including the MLs.

Math can be BS examples, I know, but from experienc, by the time ANY dakka build I run is ammo depleted, the match is already decided. Honestly, I'm usually dead or omg uberawesomesauce long before that happens.

tldr: Ammo Depletion should never be a strategy vs. Dakka Mechs...smart players rarely run dry, and if they're not smart...you can kill them easier through conventional means.

[Odins Fist]

Mr 144, on 21 September 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Good post, but I disagree with this part. Seems like a foolish strategy to me as it's completely dependant on an inferior pilot. I have ~45% combined accuarcy with all 3 of the AC spam weapons...

Fortune favors the bold.
While you're exposed trying to get your 45% accuracy two of my lancemates are pelting you for more damage than you can deal on a fast moving target, not counting the shots I can and do put on target.. 77.35% just with the cockpit blinder ray LOL, and almost the same with every other weapon on that Mech's loadout. For sustained fire you must expose your Mech to at least one or more of the enemy, and keep up that amount of fire. It's easier to hit a stationary or slow target, than it is to hit a fast moving target.. It works enough for me to make it viable, and yes I get hit by your teammates as well, but if I can coordinate it properly I don't get hit to the degree you would expect.
Situational awareness

I've pulled the old "Hey look at me" manuever succesfully so many times that it is definately a proven tactic, regardless of pilot skill.
Yeah it can fail, but "ANY" manuever can fail, the variables on the battlefield change with every second of gameplay.
The "it's completely dependant on an inferior pilot" way of looking at it can go both ways I guess, but I would rather gamble a little bit and take that chance, rather than sit in a cluster of cowering mechs on canyon network wondering what to do next.

It works better on coms, but I have run this by typing to the pugs as well, it just depends on the situation of that moment, but all plans can go to the bin in a split second.
.
As I said "Fortune favors the bold", it's better to do something and maybe succeed or fail, then do nothing and fail for certain.
I don't mean blindly rushing in by that, quite the opposite.

Edited by Odins Fist, 21 September 2013 - 12:58 PM.