88 replies to this topic

[VikingN1nja]

Pariah Devalis, on 06 November 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

You have not said why it is ruined. Why is it ruined? Because you want to brawl with a gauss rifle?


Good luck getting THAT issue past the serious faces committee.

Weapons are designed with purposes in mind. What do you expect, taking a long ranged, precision coil gun into a fast, brutal slugfest? Did you want the Gauss Rifle to be good at everything? Or have I missed the point you were trying to make about gauss rifles at some point between you making interchangeable arguments about words and claiming the HM is ruined?

In all honestly, I want you to construct a solid argument for Gauss Rifles as you see them existing. What do you want out of them. What is your vision for them. Then how do you intend to balance them? Then we can have a good conversation about why you feel the way you do, and you could very well make some good points.

OPTION 1: If stacked with lasers or missles the option of the old mechanic.
OPTION 2: No reload, the charge is the reload and the window to shoot has a longer duration.
OPTION 3: allow premium mechs to have interchangable actuators like endo steel so an ac20 can be fitted.

My point is that premium mechs that relied on it as it's main ballistic weapon have been weakened in brawls especially against their AC20 carrying counterparts.

Ok let's take the guy that said yes I will PURCHASE the dragon slayer as I love the Gauss rifle....



He is using the Gauss now against say the B or S variants who wins? (He had a chance before the NERF)

Resorts to ac10 Who wins?

Does he wish he had not bought that mech now and let down by devs?

Edited by omegaorgun, 06 November 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[VikingN1nja]

Heavy metal with an AC/20 yes please. As for brawling with the old mechanic with a Battlemaster...oh sweet momma yes please.

Edited by omegaorgun, 06 November 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

omegaorgun, on 06 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

OPTION 1: If stacked with lasers or missles the option of the old mechanic.
OPTION 2: No reload, the charge is the reload and the window to shoot has a longer duration.
OPTION 3: allow premium mechs to have interchangable actuators like endo steel so an ac20 can be fitted.

My point is that premium mechs that relied on it as it's main ballistic weapon have been weakened in brawls especially against their AC20 carrying counterparts.

Ok let's take the guy that said yes I will PURCHASE the dragon slayer as I love the Gauss rifle....



He is using the Gauss now against say the B or S variants who wins? (He had a chance before the NERF)

Resorts to ac10 Who wins?

Does he wish he had not bought that mech now and let down by devs?

Actually, my DS with a gauss rifle still kicks ***...and the gauss doesn't explode NEARLY as often with the increase to its hitpoints...so, no...money well spent.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 07 November 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[MavRCK]

Gilfner, on 21 September 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Thoughts?

Yes!

EXPERIENCED PLAYERS AVOID USING THE GAUSS RIFLE!!



It's clumsy and poorly implemented. Decrease the charge to 0.25 sec, decrease the recycle time to 2.5 sec, make the sounds and animations more obvious....

https://docs.google....p=sharing#gid=0
Name Damage DPS DPS/ton DPS/heat Damage per heat Heat Cooldown Range Max Range Slots Tons Speed Ammo/t HPS EHS Impulse Health Costs AC/10 10 4 0.33 1.33 3.33 3 2.5 450 1,350 7 12 1,100 15 1.2 12 0.06 10 400,000 AC/2 2 3.85 0.64 3.85 2 1 0.52 720 2,160 1 6 2,000 75 1.92 20 0.038 10 150,000 AC/20 20 5 0.36 0.83 3.33 6 4 270 810 10 14 900 7 1.5 15 0.13 18 600,000 AC/5 5 3.33 0.42 3.33 5 1 1.5 620 1,700 4 8 1,300 30 0.67 7 0.04 10 250,000 LB 10-X AC 10 4 0.36 2 5 2 2.5 540 1620 6 11 1100 15 0.8 8 0.04 10 800000 GAUSS RIFLE 15 3.75 0.25 3.75 15 1 4 660 1,980 7 15 2,000 10 0.25 3 0.05 5.00 600,000 MACHINE GUN 0.1 1 2 - - 120 240 1 0.5 100 2,000 - - 0.001 10 10,000 ULTRA AC/5 5 3.83 0.43 3.83 5 1 1.50 600 1,800 5 9 1,300 30 0.67 7 0.04 10 400,000

DPS per ton is ridiculously low... the lowest in the game at 0.25.

It's actually worse because the author did not include the charge up time which is 0.5sec so the dps ton is AT BEST 0.22222 and if you include the time to fire, it's 0.2.

Nerf bat was successful.

Edited by MavRCK, 06 November 2013 - 01:36 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I hate when it gets compared on a sense of DPS, however. Gauss is not a DPS weapon. Neither are PPC. They are weapons best used to hit hard and withdraw. Hit hard and withdraw. You put 15 points of damage on a single spot in a single shot and poof. The trick is not fighting a DPS race with the weapon. You play by your own textbook, not the "let's stare at each other and blast each other until one of us falls down" game. Granted, when using Gauss, my kill ratio drops, but that is because I am the guy cracking open the pinnata while the rest of my team eats the sweet, sweet candy.

I hope they get diabetes.

omegaorgun, on 06 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

OPTION 1: If stacked with lasers or missles the option of the old mechanic.
OPTION 2: No reload, the charge is the reload and the window to shoot has a longer duration.
OPTION 3: allow premium mechs to have interchangable actuators like endo steel so an ac20 can be fitted.

My point is that premium mechs that relied on it as it's main ballistic weapon have been weakened in brawls especially against their AC20 carrying counterparts.

I see your point. However, it is still hanging on the idea that a gauss rifle should be used in brawls. It should not. Heck, the stock Heavy Metal is designed for a ranged fight. It is not even a brawler, stock. Gauss Rifle, LRM20, 3 Medium Lasers, and an SRM6. The first two are solidly long range weapons, and the primary weapon systems on the mech. The medium lasers hit respectably at 400 meters and are optimal around 300. Only the SRM6 is for close range work, and that was probably just thrown on there for combat flexibility.

As for your option ideas:

If 1. You confuse people more by changing the mechanics of the weapon based on loadout. People already cry that the weapon is tough to learn. This does nothing to help that.

If 2. A good idea, but the charge would need to be extended. As it is, it is only a 0.75 second charge period on a weapon that used to have a 4 second recharge. This would probably require a rewriting for usability purposes that made it a click to charge, second click to shoot mechanic, as having a 3 second charge up period is just ludicrously long.

If 3. That would give Hero mechs an unfair advantage as far as customization is concerned. Literally, giving them a customization feature that is impossible to get outside of a hero mech. Plus, it messes with arm mechanics. You would need to have the mech function one way with one set of actuators or another way with the full set, and it would need to account for every type of actuator being inserted or removed - and would need to select the right function set every time you changed the actuator configuration. Also, this would probably be an absolute pain in the butt to code.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 06 November 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[NRP]

This issue for me personally is the Heavy Metal and the Dragon Slayer lost a high pinpoint damage ballistic option, when other mechs they compete against didn't (most can mount either AC/20 or gauss). That alone has seriously effected the viability of these variants.

What's worse though, is the HM and DS were clearly designed to use a gauss as the primary weapon in a variety of roles/situations, not just the long range standoff role. Had the current gauss firing mechanic been known (or even in the conceptual design stage), I'm sure these mechs would have different hard point layouts.

But whatever. What's done is done. I agree a compelling argument can be made for the new firing mechanic's positive impact on overall game meta. I'm not sure I want to return to Sniper Warrior Online either (although it was fun at times).

I think a reasonable solution to this dilemma is to offer an interchangeable actuators option, as someone mentioned above. That would give players options for these mechs that they don't currently have.

[VikingN1nja]

I am utterely f'ing disgusted as to how {Scrap} Heavy Metal is now owned by jager, owned by victor, owned by atlas, owned by BJ owned by everything with superior ballistic power.

NRP, on 06 November 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

This issue for me personally is the Heavy Metal and the Dragon Slayer lost a high pinpoint damage ballistic option, when other mechs they compete against didn't (most can mount either AC/20 or gauss). That alone has seriously effected the viability of these variants.

What's worse though, is the HM and DS were clearly designed to use a gauss as the primary weapon in a variety of roles/situations, not just the long range standoff role. Had the current gauss firing mechanic been known (or even in the conceptual design stage), I'm sure these mechs would have different hard point layouts.

But whatever. What's done is done. I agree a compelling argument can be made for the new firing mechanic's positive impact on overall game meta. I'm not sure I want to return to Sniper Warrior Online either (although it was fun at times).

I think a reasonable solution to this dilemma is to offer an interchangeable actuators option, as someone mentioned above. That would give players options for these mechs that they don't currently have.

Or if not stacked with PPC option of old mechanic.

[VikingN1nja]

I also have a bad tendon injury from years back so i kind of get a repetitive strain using the Gauss on my hand. As you need to hold a small amount of tension on hand until u let go and if u miss that has to be repeated and repeated if you miss or just dont shoot.

REPETITIVE STRAIN INJURY.

Edited by omegaorgun, 06 November 2013 - 04:06 PM.

[Silentium]

In its current form it is difficult to use. The pilot is required to have mastery of predicting enemy movement across LOS and through cover while accounting for charge-release-recycle. Other weapons can be quickly fired at first opportunity, such as AC and PPC. The planning element involved with the gauss is daunting.

[VikingN1nja]

Silentium, on 06 November 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

In its current form it is difficult to use. The pilot is required to have mastery of predicting enemy movement across LOS and through cover while accounting for charge-release-recycle. Other weapons can be quickly fired at first opportunity, such as AC and PPC. The planning element involved with the gauss is daunting.

It is pretty bad, I can give props for trying something different but it does not stop ppc boating and weakens so many mechs is mind boggling.

[Silentium]

Yeah, I don't particularly care for the mechanic myself. I am having a hard time adapting to it, and find myself short cycling quite a bit. The other problem is that I end up full frontal to the enemy for too long, which makes spreading damage tricky as well. I have found that as long as I have the initiative, it isn't completely unuseable, but is significantly more difficult to use defensively.

[Amsro]

2000m/s Gauss is amazing. Much more accurate.

MavRCK, on 06 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

EXPERIENCED PLAYERS AVOID USING THE GAUSS RIFLE!!
Nerf bat was successful.

Define "experienced players". Since when is a buff a nerf?

QQ'ing takes more time then learning to shoot the new Gauss, I see you took a lot of effort to build your argument, but the fact is Gauss is insanely good.

Edited by Amsro, 06 November 2013 - 05:30 PM.

[MadCat02]

Gilfner, on 21 September 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

As someone that is still fairly new, I've mostly stopped using the Gauss Rifle. I'm still trying to get a handle on everything else in the game. Having to worry about charging the Gauss Rifle just seems like more than I have bandwidth for right now. And my attempts to run them have showed, with hardly any rounds fired, let alone accurately.

I was checking out the new Trial mechs and I see that the Dragon & Atlas both have Gauss Rifles. For the reason I stated above, I personally think these aren't great variants for new players. Don't get me wrong, it's good to see that the new player has access to reasonably good mech's without having to learn to build one. Maybe I just need to keep trying, I figured out the LRM's okay. Maybe it's that the charging indicator is too small. I've heard others voice that complaint. Maybe it's just me.

Thoughts?

It takes about 5 seconds to fire 1-15 damage shoot. On top of that gauss exlodes for 20 damage and you can't play poke and hide with it .

I gave it a 2 month trial and it proved useless.

Edited by MadCat02, 06 November 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[MavRCK]

Amsro, on 06 November 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Define "experienced players".


Since when is a buff a nerf?

Where have you been? ggclose!

You got to go read a dictionary and learn the definition of nerf.

Maybe catch up on mathematics... it's posted there just for people like you where reason and logic are up there with unicorns! And I love unicorns! <3

Edited by MavRCK, 06 November 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[Amsro]

MavRCK, on 06 November 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Where have you been? ggclose!

You got to go read a dictionary and learn the definition of nerf.

Maybe catch up on mathematics... it's posted there just for people like you where reason and logic are up there with unicorns! And I love unicorns! <3

So increasing the speed is a nerf? The Gauss is easily the most useful weapon in the game right now.

2000m/s requires no further math, but keep telling yourself Gauss sucks, better for me.

[Pariah Devalis]

There is an adage used in piloting: Stay ahead of the aircraft.

Stay ahead of your mech and the gauss is "fine." Use your situational and tactical awareness to mentally keep tabs of the enemies' locations. Utilize friendly radar locks while you are in cover. Gauss rifles, much like LRMs, work better with teammates you can rely on, since in theory you only expose yourself long enough to plant a shell right in your target's chest. Using the radar contacts your allies paint, you can predict or outright see where the enemy is or is heading to, time a charge, and blast them as either you or they clear cover. Turning, charging, aiming, firing out of the turn works with a little practice, too.

The problem is, players people are lazy. Especially so in both mine and the following generation of people. The joy of mastering something that is initially difficult seems lost on so many. If you do not want to learn how to make using the Gauss Rifle easy, then go with another weapon. If you do, I can say I personally find it very rewarding.

Honestly, you wanna know what my single biggest issue is with Gauss Rifles? End of match score. It heavily rewards people who bludgeon people to death with ineffective use of firepower. Two people who kill three mechs, one with ~100 damage per kill using Gauss, one with ~200 damage per kill using Autocannons. End of match score rolls around and the precision gauss mech who precisely eliminated targets is going to score almost half as high as the guy who just mashed the trigger button.

That I have a problem with, but it is not an issue with the gauss. It is an issue with the way match score is totaled.

[VikingN1nja]

It hasn't stopped these combos.

Edited by omegaorgun, 07 November 2013 - 07:37 AM.

[VikingN1nja]

I asked a guy that is into programming games and he reckoned that if not stacked with PPC the old mechanic could be implemented as an option very easily. Much like the glow option.

Edited by omegaorgun, 07 November 2013 - 07:47 AM.

[VikingN1nja]

Amsro, on 06 November 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

2000m/s Gauss is amazing. Much more accurate.

Define "experienced players". Since when is a buff a nerf?

QQ'ing takes more time then learning to shoot the new Gauss, I see you took a lot of effort to build your argument, but the fact is Gauss is insanely good.

It is in ways but when an ER-LLAS raven is ducking a weaving out of cover whilst you are trying to manage a charge mechanic how much armor has he stripped off you before you take the shot.

charge/miss/charge/miss/charge/miss/charge/team mate in the way

[Bishop Steiner]

Lightfoot, on 05 November 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

Well, I use a joystick and the mechanic doesn't work with it because you can't aim and fire with a joystick in the one second window allowed. I have been piloting mechs since 1998 with a joystick so if the learning curve is that great it should be changed to something more functional.

Most MWO players will never learn to use Gauss Rifle as is so it's just poison to MWO in general. You don't want a massive low DPS weapon to have an unusable factor that large. If players invest all that payload to a weapon it should always be usable by any player.

The good fix for the Gauss Rifle is to just give it a longer recharge than the AC20. The mistake was giving both the AC20 and Gauss Rifle the same recharge rate. That's all it ever was.



.

or you learn to be a little pro-active? Start leading your target WHILE the Gauss is charging, (again, I recommend the thumb trigger as the easiest to use the mechanic from) and VIOLA!!!!!! When the charge is ready, release! Waiting for the charge to build to start aiming is just...bad. Sorry to keep busting you out here, but I keep doing all the thing's you say are impossible, and find that they are not, even using a 15 year old joystick.