92 replies to this topic

[Bront]

Energy weapons got the shaft, partially due to the long beam durations and high heat, but also partially due to the heat system's, and the ROF ballistics got over Energy weapons.

That said, some of my most effective mechs have been pure energy or energy/missile builds. No ammo to worry about means you can take pot shots at extreme range without any real worry, functionally good range makes them pretty useful, and weight means you can fit a few onto nearly any build.

The biggest problems are Pulse lasers just are rarely worth it (SPLs have the occasional use, MPLs can be functional in some builds, but LPLs just are not worth the extra damage when for 2 tons less you can do more damage beyond 300M with a standard large (and significantly more with an ER Large with the same heat).

[The Boz]

Khobai, on 22 September 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

The unfortunate reality is that the Stalker, by virtue of being able to boat energy weapons, will continue to ruin everything for other energy-based mechs. Because any balance decisions PGI makes that adversely affect the Stalker also adversely affect other mechs like the Awesome.

That's why PGI needs to add mech-specific quirks (i.e. the Awesome should be better at using large energy weapons than any other mech). Stalkers should be deadlier overall by boating many small weapons. But when it comes to boating large energy weapons no mech should outdo the Awesome.

Where does that leave the Atlas RS?

[Khobai]

Quote

Where does that leave the Atlas RS?

The Atlas RS isnt supposed to be an energy boat. The stock version only has two energy weapons and carries a mixed loadout with energy/ballistic/missile weapons. If anything the Atlas should get a quirk that gives it a bonus when it uses mixed loadouts.

The Awesome on the other hand is supposed to boat PPCs. Yet the stupid ghost heat penalties prevent the Awesome from fulfilling its canon role. The Awesome should get a quirk that gives it a bonus when boating PPCs (and at the very least it should ignore the ghost heat penalties on upto 3 ppcs).

And actually I think all mechs should get quirks that give you small bonuses for playing the mech in its canon role. Like the Trebuchet and Catapult should get quirks that makes them better at using LRMs. Kindve silly that Stalker is the best LRM boat, and not the mechs that actually boat LRMs in canon. Adding quirks like that would help give every mech its own place in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 22 September 2013 - 12:17 PM.

[The Boz]

That "quirks that make certain loadouts better" thing is... I don't see a good future in that. It would only serve to limit build diversity even further, and mechs with the wrong quirks for the meta would be even less popular than they are now.

[Shakma]

Bront, on 22 September 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

The biggest problems are Pulse lasers just are rarely worth it (SPLs have the occasional use, MPLs can be functional in some builds, but LPLs just are not worth the extra damage when for 2 tons less you can do more damage beyond 300M with a standard large (and significantly more with an ER Large with the same heat).

I have to disagree there. Beam durration is the key. You put much more of the potential dmg to the desired spot. Of course 7 tons is alot for the LPLas, but the shorter beam durration has helped quite a bit. Imo no beam durration should be longer than like 0.6 sec, regardless if pulse or constant.

Edited by Shakma, 22 September 2013 - 12:30 PM.

[Serpentbane]

Bront, on 22 September 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

That said, some of my most effective mechs have been pure energy or energy/missile builds. No ammo to worry about means you can take pot shots at extreme range without any real worry, functionally good range makes them pretty useful, and weight means you can fit a few onto nearly any build.

Well, as I wrote initially, I'm verry sucessfull with my Raven RVN-3L, packing energy weapons only. But here I have speed and manuveribility. I can do a couple of shots dissapear. With an assult class mech, this is usually not an valid option. According to ppl in this thread I should fight on the front line with my raven, and holding back hiding behind rocks and other mechs, fireing a few shots now and then with my Awesome.

[Lightfoot]

Totally agree, MWOO is so unlike Battletech in it's handling of Energy weapons.

I tell you though, if Ghost Heat is the working Heat Nerf then dump all the old Heat nerfs that did not work, especially DHS 1.4. You have the weird Ghost Heat now so make it work and give me back my Awesome.

[Bront]

Shakma, on 22 September 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

I have to disagree there. Beam durration is the key. You put much more of the potential dmg to the desired spot. Of course 7 tons is alot for the LPLas, but the shorter beam durration has helped quite a bit. Imo no beam durration should be longer than like 0.6 sec, regardless if pulse or constant.

Oh, I wanted to love LPLs for the beam durration, but the damage isn't that much better, and the range is so much shorter I'm better off with an LL and 2 MLs if I can mount them. Better damage at all ranges even if I only get the LPL's beam durration on target. The bigg issue is the ranges 301-450M, where LL outshines the LPL easily. Outside of the AC20, the LPL is the largest weapon with the shortest range.

I've said in many threads, I think LL and ML durrations should be .75, SL .6, LPL and ML .5, and SPL .4. It would make all beam weapons more useful in general, and pulse lasers would still be more effective DPS wise (at being 33% shorter beam durration).

[Bront]

Serpentbane, on 22 September 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Well, as I wrote initially, I'm verry sucessfull with my Raven RVN-3L, packing energy weapons only. But here I have speed and manuveribility. I can do a couple of shots dissapear. With an assult class mech, this is usually not an valid option. According to ppl in this thread I should fight on the front line with my raven, and holding back hiding behind rocks and other mechs, fireing a few shots now and then with my Awesome.

That's a reflection of the heat system. DHS work as designed in BT for the first 10 engine heatsinks (double dissipation), and so smaller energy builds that only use those stock 10 or close to it work fine. This is why balistics are so nice, as they don't generate the heat to worry those first 10 DHS. After that, heat dissipation goes down hill, and thus, larger mechs or every weapon dependent mechs have a harder time dealing with heat. So light mechs don't really notice the energy weapon issue much, while assault pilots are kicked in the groin for taking an energy build in mechs that normally should be quite viable in lore.

[aniviron]

Biglead, on 21 September 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Well if youre going to follow the herd, don't ***** about it being crowded.

Yeah, that herd of AWS-8Q pilots. Hardly all I see people playing these days; they're far too good.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 22 September 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

Yeah, that herd of AWS-8Q pilots. Hardly all I see people playing these days; they're far too good.

When you speak of Awesomes, aniviron will show up.

All we need now to start the Awesome apocalypse... give the 8R back a module slot.

Edited by Deathlike, 22 September 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[aniviron]

Deathlike, on 22 September 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

When you speak of Awesomes, aniviron will show up.

All we need now to start the Awesome apocalypse... give the 8R back a module slot.

It's guaranteed to summon me, without fail. I don't even have power at my apartment right now, leeching off of a friend until it comes back on. That's how effective this summoning call is.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 22 September 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

It's guaranteed to summon me, without fail. I don't even have power at my apartment right now, leeching off of a friend until it comes back on. That's how effective this summoning call is.

POWER OVERWHELMING

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 22 September 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

POWER OVERWHELMING

[Joseph Mallan]

Amsro, on 22 September 2013 - 05:14 AM, said:

Energy builds should be very heat efficient to be effective, if you wander on the field at or below 1.00 then expect to be pummled while shut down.

1.3-1.6 is the sweet range for energy builds. If your stalker is too hot, slow it down give it more heat sinks.

As well.... PGI REMOVE GHOST HEAT, not that it ever functioned but its completely useless now with new ER/PPC heat values.

Energy builds are by definition heat monsters as they have a MST(Metric S*** Ton) of high heat weapons.

[Shlkt]

If you examine the the heat efficiencies of classic BattleTech energy weapons you'll notice that they do not all run hot. The small laser has a damage/heat ratio of 3.0, almost as good as an AC/10. MWO has nerfed the heat efficiencies of small and medium lasers by 50% and 25% respectively. Consequently MWO's energy weapons just aren't capable of much sustained damage output.

Ideally you'd want to see at least a couple heat-efficient energy weapons that could be used as backups when your mech starts running hot. But for some bizarre reason MWO's medium laser is actually less heat efficient than the large laser - so there's no reason to use mediums as backups except for burst damage when you're still running cool. The opposite ought to be the case - players should have a good reason to switch to their mediums at close ranges.

Edited by Shlkt, 23 September 2013 - 08:17 AM.

[aniviron]

Shlkt, on 23 September 2013 - 08:17 AM, said:

If you examine the the heat efficiencies of classic BattleTech energy weapons you'll notice that they do not all run hot. The small laser has a damage/heat ratio of 3.0, almost as good as an AC/10. MWO has nerfed the heat efficiencies of small and medium lasers by 50% and 25% respectively. Consequently MWO's energy weapons just aren't capable of much sustained damage output.

Ideally you'd want to see at least a couple heat-efficient energy weapons that could be used as backups when your mech starts running hot. But for some bizarre reason MWO's medium laser is actually less heat efficient than the large laser - so there's no reason to use mediums as backups except for burst damage when you're still running cool. The opposite ought to be the case - players should have a good reason to switch to their mediums at close ranges.

While I completely agree, I will tell you why they didn't- and probably shouldn't- make the mlas more heat efficient than the llas (and only a few percent more efficient than the lplas even). The thing is, a large laser weighs five tons, and does 9 damage. For that kind of tonnage, you can get 25 damage worth of medium laser. While the llas' range more than makes up for its additional weight cost of heavier, slower mechs, when you're in a JR7-F you can move quickly enough that while the loss of range is annoying, it's not as huge a deal as it might be. So essentially, the tradeoff that the mlas gets in this game is ridiculously high firepower for its tonnage, at the cost of range, heat, and beam duration. I do think it needs a small boost to its efficacy, as you don't see terribly many mlas on the field, they're mostly supplemental weapons. The thing is though, they were pretty OP in tabletop- one weapon as the primary workhorse of the inner sphere. Their range problem was compounded by the lack of an MWO-style system where you get more range and damage falloff, but they had excellent damage/ton, and very good heat/damage as well. This sort of combination leads to mechs like the HBK-4P and Nova prime config, where you don't even bother with other guns, because the mlas is just good enough that you can get by without others.

[Serpentbane]

instead of making p.r.s games, the maps should be huge, many times bigger. Forcing ppl to use tactics and take advantages of the different mechs. Open for longer range fireing, like R(really)LRM and artillery, depending on spotters etc. 1000m, come on, I hit car size targets at that range With my AG3. Also, some maps could be favorable for one mech size, for example cave networks with narrow passages etc. This way, Assaults could be devestating, but also prey.

[Devils Advocate]

My 8Q has a 300 standard engine and a 46 damage alpha at super close ranges he can fire 3 times before he shuts off. It's the only way I can make him useful out on the field. Building him in 'brackets' means he is weaker at long range than anything using ballistics at long range and more vulnerable at close range where energy is supposed to be dangerous. Can't be inferior everywhere and be successful, especially in PUGs. Pick a thing to be best at and try to pull it off.

[Vodrin Thales]

Dirkdaring, on 22 September 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

I hardly ever see Awesomes anymore. Played 4-5 matches yesterday and don't recall seeing a single one.

That's because their CT is slightly smaller than the state of Texas, not because of what weapons they can carry.