92 replies to this topic

[focuspark]

Wolfways, on 21 September 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

I've bought and sold my Stalker-3F over and over because i kind of like it (for an IS mech) but with so many energy hardpoints and no ballistics it's just too hard to find a build that doesn't melt the mech in a short time.
But then, i've basically given up on lasers in general. Why take a mech that overheats so much when you can use ballistics for much lower heat and much higher dps?

6x ML + 4x LRM = win. It's a good mech, just don't use all the weapons at once.

[focuspark]

Here's even a link to a Surfy's loadout. This thing is a monster.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d47e66df6068f9f

[Serpentbane]

focuspark, on 23 September 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

6x ML + 4x LRM = win. It's a good mech, just don't use all the weapons at once.

If you read my first post I write "unless I do some LRM boating With the STK-5S", so yes, you are as of now able to build a support mech out of this. But the power comes from the LRM's, not the ML's. All in all, one can actually do a more effective build by dropping all ML's and go LRM only. Usually you will be able to pull this off. The reason for this is that you most likely will avoid a head on fight anyways, and if you end up in one, chanses are you'll loose anyways. So higher LRM damage output will on a average beat this combo build. How ever, If you don't want to run this ASSAULT mech in support mode. Those 6ML's will not cut the cheese.

[Satan n stuff]

Devils Advocate, on 23 September 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

My 8Q has a 300 standard engine and a 46 damage alpha at super close ranges he can fire 3 times before he shuts off. It's the only way I can make him useful out on the field. Building him in 'brackets' means he is weaker at long range than anything using ballistics at long range and more vulnerable at close range where energy is supposed to be dangerous. Can't be inferior everywhere and be successful, especially in PUGs. Pick a thing to be best at and try to pull it off.

So you fire three times, shutdown and promptly get slaughtered? And what happens on maps with lots of open ground? You keep your head down until you can get your three alphas or you die before you can even do anything. Believe it or not, you don't have to specialize in a range and there's a good reason not to, and that's efficiency. When you're at your minimum heat level you're wasting potential damage, so sitting behind cover hoping to get close to something while everyone else is fighting makes you a detriment to your team. Also you don't have to outgun dedicated snipers or LRM boats, you just have to assist the ones on your team. Every bit of damage helps, whatever you happen to be shooting at will go down a lot sooner, and you increase the odds of one or more players on your team being able to keep shooting without taking return fire, making them a lot more effective.
Furthermore you can use the most efficient energy weapon for your chosen ranges so you can actually output more than 140 or so damage before shutting down. An Awesome is actually rather hard to take down if you torso twist properly but you'll go down like a ton of bricks if you don't, so you need to have the most efficient weapons so you can hit harder and more often without shutting down.
My own 8Q will actually shutdown on the second alpha, but I didn't design it for alpha strikes. I still have the option of course, and 50 damage over a very short time can be devastating, but it's not my first choice of action.

[Wolfways]

focuspark, on 23 September 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Here's even a link to a Surfy's loadout. This thing is a monster.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d47e66df6068f9f

That is similar to my build except i use 2xSRM6's instead of two of the LRM launchers. But even just firing the ML's it heats up extremely quickly.

[focuspark]

Wolfways, on 24 September 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

That is similar to my build except i use 2xSRM6's instead of two of the LRM launchers. But even just firing the ML's it heats up extremely quickly.

Of course it does... that's how they balance it out. Best setup is to have your MOUSE_1 set to chain-fire and MOUSE_2 set to alpha strike. Then be judicious.

Serpentbane, on 24 September 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

If you read my first post I write "unless I do some LRM boating With the STK-5S", so yes, you are as of now able to build a support mech out of this. But the power comes from the LRM's, not the ML's. All in all, one can actually do a more effective build by dropping all ML's and go LRM only. Usually you will be able to pull this off. The reason for this is that you most likely will avoid a head on fight anyways, and if you end up in one, chanses are you'll loose anyways. So higher LRM damage output will on a average beat this combo build. How ever, If you don't want to run this ASSAULT mech in support mode. Those 6ML's will not cut the cheese.

But... but... the Stalker is a LRM support platform by design. Your argument is like saying: I have a Forumla One car, but dammit I can't fit my golf clubs in it!

[Wolfways]

focuspark, on 24 September 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Of course it does... that's how they balance it out. Best setup is to have your MOUSE_1 set to chain-fire and MOUSE_2 set to alpha strike. Then be judicious.

Balance with what?
Lasers = cram the most DHS you can into your mech so you can fire grouped a couple of times then shutdown, or fire chained reducing your dps a lot.
Ballistics = Fit enough ammo and DHS to last the battle into your mech so you can fire grouped for a long time, or...well there's no need to chain fire.
LRM's = Fit a lot of missiles into your mech because there's so much cover that many of your missiles will hit nothing, or only fit a few missiles because you'll rarely want to fire, or if there's ECM you won't be firing at all unless you use up an energy slot for a TAG which will also reduce your weapon range to 750m.

I don't call that balance.

[MadCat02]

Serpentbane, on 21 September 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

With the never stopping nerfing of the weapons to "balance" the game, I feel som much have gone wrong.
I have both the AWS-8Q and STK-5S. Assault mechs. You know, the kind of mechs that should make PPL a little loose in their panties. Only problem is, these models are (unless I do som LRM boating with the 5S), energy builds.
But the problem is I'm unable to do anything with them. If I put on something other than ML, these mechs are going to overheat mania. Ofcourse, I could fire one salvo or two from afar, and then hide and wait. But sooner than later I'm bound to end up in some close combat. I can then either fire everyting and hope for a kill before a shut down, or fire on laser at the time for e litte while (= doing no damage before being killed).
Assault mechs are rather slow, thus they have more armor and firepower. Or, they should. Using only ML, I can fit 7 of these on the AWS-8Q. But that is dumb, then its better to take the HBK-4P instead. It can fit 9 ML, or 7 with about the same cooling efficency.
Seing how spiders takes on assaults these days, we all know speed > armor. Is it wrong that this assault mech are able to effectively use LL, or the three PPCs it comes packed with from factory?
There is something fundamentaly wrong with the game in my opinion. MWO have allmost become a rock, paper, scissors 1. person shooter. Is this right? Should it be? In the name of balance?
PGI have not managed to make use of the roles each weight class have. There was no benifits of running lighter mechs, nor was there any limitations agains weight in a game. Running up against assault mechs, getting hammered as they should, ppl started crying about balance. With the result of, in the first round, making energy assault mechs usless for brawl/close combat. Whats next? They did the AC20 and Gaus nerf, but atleast those still work in a way.
Today I do, on avarage, more damage per round with my Raven, than I do with the awesome or stalker enegy builds. The raven is a scout and electronic warfare mech, not the new assault mech. The spider is even worse.
　
In my opinion the assault mechs should still be powerfull as hell, and grind trough everything in their way. PPL should choose other mechs because of other game mechanichs. Or the game should be balanced in some other way.
　
PS: Some ppl say that this is because I dont know how to build a stalker or awesome. Well, if anyone can build a energyplatform out of these, be my guest. Post your builds.

I paly Stalker with 5 large alsers and get 600-1200 with 1-9 kills on every win . No idea what you talking about

[focuspark]

Wolfways, on 24 September 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Balance with what?
Lasers = cram the most DHS you can into your mech so you can fire grouped a couple of times then shutdown, or fire chained reducing your dps a lot.
Ballistics = Fit enough ammo and DHS to last the battle into your mech so you can fire grouped for a long time, or...well there's no need to chain fire.
LRM's = Fit a lot of missiles into your mech because there's so much cover that many of your missiles will hit nothing, or only fit a few missiles because you'll rarely want to fire, or if there's ECM you won't be firing at all unless you use up an energy slot for a TAG which will also reduce your weapon range to 750m.

I don't call that balance.

Lasers offer pinpoint accuracy and only require a few tons and a few critical slots. Ballistics are heavy and most are large. Pilots need to lead their shots with ballistics, but since they all travel at different velocities you can either only have one kind of ballistic or keep adjusting your lead (this is actually very difficult and bravo to those who can do it successfully). The downside of lasers is that they're hot and take time to apply their damage.

IMO ballistics are quite balanced with lasers. PPC are currently a little broken, and Pulse Lasers are kind of useless.

Missiles are borked, but they've always been borked because PGI cannot seem to design them right. They either work spectacularly or not at all - they're not terribly reliable but work great to keep opponents pinned down.

[Wolfways]

focuspark, on 24 September 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Lasers offer pinpoint accuracy and only require a few tons and a few critical slots. Ballistics are heavy and most are large.

Lasers take up much more space when you try to fit in the amount of DHS you need to run them, and i don't see the difference between having to aim at the target or in front of it. Either way you have to aim at a certain point, but with lasers you need to keep the beam on that point. Lasers are much harder to use than AC's.

Quote

Pilots need to lead their shots with ballistics, but since they all travel at different velocities you can either only have one kind of ballistic or keep adjusting your lead (this is actually very difficult and bravo to those who can do it successfully). The downside of lasers is that they're hot and take time to apply their damage.

My Jager has 2xAC2's and 2xAC5's and i only group fire them. It takes around 15 seconds to overheat, and under 10 seconds to kill an Atlas, during which time he can barely see me due to the smoke/shake, and it's almost as easy to hit a target at 1000m as it is at 100m, and up to 1500m isn't difficult.

Quote

IMO ballistics are quite balanced with lasers. PPC are currently a little broken, and Pulse Lasers are kind of useless.

Missiles are borked, but they've always been borked because PGI cannot seem to design them right. They either work spectacularly or not at all - they're not terribly reliable but work great to keep opponents pinned down.

I think PPC's are slightly too hot, but not much (compared to lasers, not AC's) and pulses are way too hot for the limited range. LRM's are just a terrible weapon that only really works well if you have a spotter.
Unfortunately pulse lasers and LRM's are my favourite weapons from the BT universe (one of my favourite mechs is the Mad Dog) and i can't bring myself to use them without drastically nerfing my performance because they're basically rubbish compared to AC's.

[MaddMaxx]

The Boz, on 22 September 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

The most heat-effective energy build puts out less DPS and does it for a shorter amount of time than the same mech can put out with just 10 heat sinks and autocannons.

While true, that Ballistics pilot has to carry more than enough Ammo to assure they do not run out. How many times I see Ballistic Mechs in extended battles running around with just an SL after they miscalculated how much ammo they should carry. The Energy carrier has no such worry when building a heat efficient design.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 24 September 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[The Boz]

Energy loadouts take more heat sinks, ballistics loadouts take more ammo. The end result is that the whole ballistics loadout on a heavy or assault mech is ~20% heavier, but pumps out two to three times the DPS. If you run out of ammo before doing ~700 damage, you need to work on either your accuracy or your build. The fact that inept players are constantly seen running around without ammo and shooting their small and medium lasers in desperation is not a balance factor. I once loaded SRMs on my Atlas, with no SRM ammo. Should SRM launchers be buffed on the odd chance that a user forgets to load ammo?

[MaddMaxx]

Wolfways, on 24 September 2013 - 07:58 AM, said:

Snip

I don't call that balance.

And many, myself included, don't call what you apparently want to play, "Trigger Happy Times" anything close to what MWO should ever be. You just keep loading more and more AMMO and keep pulling that trigger every chance you get and as the games start to last longer and longer, 7 to 10 then to 13-14 minutes, it will still have to work...right. 13 minutes worth of trigger pulling ballistics must be an awful lot of ammo... LOL

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

and it's almost as easy to hit a target at 1000m as it is at 100m, and up to 1500m isn't difficult.

At 1000m both those weapons do negligible damage and at 1500m your just wasting your limited ammo. But you knew that already right.

[MaddMaxx]

The Boz, on 24 September 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

snip

The fact that inept players are constantly seen running around without ammo and shooting their small and medium lasers in desperation is not a balance factor.

snip

But they are often the loudest of the NERF crowd. Given the old adage. "The squeaky wheel gets the grease!" it appears that the inept are very "squeaky" indeed.

[Wolfways]

MaddMaxx, on 24 September 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

And many, myself included, don't call what you apparently want to play, "Trigger Happy Times" anything close to what MWO should ever be. You just keep loading more and more AMMO and keep pulling that trigger every chance you get and as the games start to last longer and longer, 7 to 10 then to 13-14 minutes, it will still have to work...right. 13 minutes worth of trigger pulling ballistics must be an awful lot of ammo... LOL

I carry 8 tons of ammo in my Jager. That's enough for the average match. If PGI make longer lasting game modes then they'll obviously have to increase the amount of ammo/ton.
I just want lasers balanced with AC's. If AC's are better in all ways what's the point of lasers?

MaddMaxx, on 24 September 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

At 1000m both those weapons do negligible damage and at 1500m your just wasting your limited ammo. But you knew that already right.

Damage is damage. I took a Raven out of the fight at about 1500m. Imo that was ammo well spent.

Oh, and if being inept is getting the highest match score and damage in most matches then i'm glad to be inept.

Edited by Wolfways, 24 September 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Vodrin Thales, on 23 September 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

That's because their CT is slightly smaller than the state of Texas, not because of what weapons they can carry.

No it's because of the weapons the Awesome carries now too. True you have a few missile boats, but they all need an Energy loadout and some only carry energy. Energy is borked completely now because PGI is balancing mWO with overheat as a crutch to cover for the real problem which is MWO's mechs are too weak. Weak as in they only last 10 seconds once someone starts shooting (and hitting) the CT. So they remove ERPPCs and PPCs and more than 2 LLasers from gameplay with ridiculous overheat levels. Autocannons go free, Gauss Rifle extinct.

I know MWO mechs have double armor now, but they also have double recharge and it creates a more damaging style of play to go along with 2x recharge... which Energy weapons don't get to use at all.

So get rid of all the old non-working heat nerfs, give us full DHS 2.0, keep the Ghost Heat if that is how you want to work heat, and give me back my Awesome.

I challenge PGI to make the AWS-9M Stock Mech work without blowing up/ shutting down from normal operation by the end of October. MWO is Live now so you shouldn't have Stock Mech variants blow themselves up for any reason. Bad for business.

[Serpentbane]

http://www.youtube.c...e&v=kW2PgEvBh2Y - From what I see, maps are getting bigger and bigger, and the terrain and infrastructure can be used in many ways. This opens for gametypes other than the typical head to head pile up, and thus, in my opinion, more role base play. Where every class of mech can shine, and strategy, tactics and teamwork can become even more important. In such games it will not matter if PPC boats are on the scene, because you can find ways to deal with them even if they'll eat you if they get you in their crosshairs to long...

[focuspark]

I would also add that heat sinks do not explode. Can't count the number of Cataphracts and Jaggers I've popped before even their armor breached because I got a lucky crit on an ammo bin.

[Wolfways]

focuspark, on 24 September 2013 - 02:03 PM, said:

I would also add that heat sinks do not explode. Can't count the number of Cataphracts and Jaggers I've popped before even their armor breached because I got a lucky crit on an ammo bin.

You didn't. There are no "through armour crits" in MWO. That feature from the TT was removed as was ammo exploding from the mech getting too hot.
The only way to get an ammo explosion is if the ammo is crit after the armour on that section is gone, or damage from another section that is blown off is transferred to the section with ammo in it (I'm not sure if the transferred damage can cause crits though).
Basically, with the speed internals take damage, you can get an ammo explosion on a section you were about to lose anyway.

Edit: I think you can also get an ammo explosion from damage when you shutdown from overheating, but i'm not sure.

Edited by Wolfways, 24 September 2013 - 02:37 PM.