251 replies to this topic

[dario03]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 23 September 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

This is my only spider. And I love her!

Close your hand really quick and see if lagshield/hsr/hitboxes keep it from getting squished. Only then will we know for sure if theres a problem or not. Its all up to you Funk.

Edited by dario03, 23 September 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[jtyotJOTJIPAEFVJ]

Mehlan, on 23 September 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Heathen.... Commandos...that is until the locust or flea come out. :-)

The Commando, as it stands currently, is nothing but a pathetic excuse for a 'Mech. It's not faster, smaller or more agile than a Jenner. It also has less armor and tonnage for weapons. It is an inferior design in every way, and people who sincerely think it is good know nothing of lights. Sure, killing hapless idiots can occasionally work in a Commando, but that's true for everything. If you actually want to play competitively, you take a Jenner instead.

But judging from the ironically smiling face at the end of your post, you already know this and merely want to joke at the expense of the pitiful Commando.

[Mehlan]

Quote

The Commando, as it stands currently, is nothing but a pathetic excuse for a 'Mech. It's not faster, smaller or more agile than a Jenner. It also has less armor and tonnage for weapons. It is an inferior design in every way, and people who sincerely think it is good know nothing of lights. Sure, killing hapless idiots can occasionally work in a Commando, but that's true for everything. If you actually want to play competitively, you take a Jenner instead.

But judging from the ironically smiling face at the end of your post, you already know this and merely want to joke at the expense of the pitiful Commando.

Hence if you really want a challenge, pilot a commando... :-)


Ancient Kurita Proverb: Big mechs are for small Wangs.

[Gralzeim]

Is that why Kurita shoves PPCs (big energy weapons) in everything? xD

[OneEyed Jack]

Aphoticus, on 23 September 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

But anyways, I see it in every video and every game I spectate

For the record, what you see when you spectate is not what the player driving the mech sees, and HSR is supposed to be based on what the player should (at least theoretically) be seeing.

BlackIronTarkus, on 23 September 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

Im so glad someone made this topic, I was about to do it myself because personnally, I havent come across a single mech that I couldn't hit because of HRS.

The only case where I had problem hitting a mech, and in that case it was a centurion, it was because his ping was so high that he kept warping all over the place and thus making it impossible to lead him.

I'm so glad you have no clue what the hell you are commenting on.

Size, speed, maneuverability, and player skill can all have effects on the difficulty of hitting a mech. But no one was talking about that. The discussion is about shots that do indeed hit, but which cause no, or little, damage.

If you haven't seen this issue, you haven't been paying attention. Even most of the guys with their fingers in their ears and their eyes squeezed shut, singing "nah, nah, nah, I can't heeeeear yoooouuu, nah, nah, nah," on the issue of the Spider, in particular, having issues, will admit that there are general hit reg issues affecting all mechs.

[PEEFsmash]

OneEyed Jack, on 23 September 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

Even most of the guys with their fingers in their ears and their eyes squeezed shut, singing "nah, nah, nah, I can't heeeeear yoooouuu, nah, nah, nah," on the issue of the Spider, in particular, having issues, will admit that there are general hit reg issues affecting all mechs.

Hit registration seemed to be a largely fixed issue as of last week, but this weekend, the network went haywire, and now HSR is screwing up on all mechs, not Spiders or lights in particular. This is evidenced by the video of multiple missed registrations from 100 meters straight into a Cataphract.

[D1al T0ne]

This thread is basic illusionist, smoke and mirrors.

Any pre-patch video will be hand waved away because HSR wasn't implemented yet. Any post-patch video will be hand waved away because of current network layer issues which are causing hit detection problems across all mech chassis.

So no video will fit the criteria by the time this topic slides off into necro thread land. No "proof" will have been presented leaving all arguments vs lights looking like unsubstantiated hysteria. Then this thread will be used as "Proof there isn't a problem because someone said so in last weeks thread!"

A tip of the hat to you good sir. Well played.

The simple answer to this thread is that it can't be solved right now. Only PGI could solve it, but they won't.

Wait, wut? They won't? Nope. They drew a line in the sand a few days ago when they pulled that beta tag off and said "We're good to go!" Can you even imagine the fiery **** storm that would ensue if they came out and said "Our metrics show that lights, and the spider in particular, are having hit box issues and aren't taking damage when and where they should be."

If there truly is a problem then they will bury it and baffle us with ******** technical terms until they can fix it, and even then it would be ninja fixed along with a patch that releases a new mech that we can only buy with MC for the first week.

[Triordinant]

They should put a Spider in the Training Grounds...

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

I just managed to find a Spider 5D ingame and hunted him down with the Jenner F for you guys debating in this topic. I was focusing on the Spider only (sorry team) and got some good footage. My aim is not the best, but you can clearly see hits and registrations from the video.

You can make your own conclusions.

My ping was around 130.

[FREDtheDEAD]

Andrew Porter, on 23 September 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Fair point, I doubt it is easy... that said in a game about shooting robots with your big robot it is pretty important that there is consistency between shooty robots, so...

That makes me think... is this a user specific problem or is it match specific? I mean, are some matches bad detection and others better detection? If it is player-by-player does anything work to help, like reinstalling the game, rebooting router, whatever?

Ping jitter was identified months ago by PGI as a cause of HSR issues. A long while before that they said they were looking at an issue 'deep within CryEngine'... but they may have fixed that... who knows.

In terms of ping jitter, the Internet is incredibly noisy. So the cause could be your computer or other computers in your LAN, your modem, any of the routers between you and the MWO servers or one or more of the routers and/or servers within the MWO LAN. There have been claims that the routers just before MWO's servers are very jittery (MWO's ISP) with graphical ping plots used as evidence. ICMP pings don't necessarily show what is going on in UDP land so that was another inconclusive claim.

Edited by Xajorkith, 23 September 2013 - 11:51 PM.

[Villz]

PEEFsmash, on 22 September 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

Let's try this again:
For the sake of discussing gameplay balance, hit registration is a top priority. Many threads have suggested that light mechs are failing to register damage even when hit cleanly. I do not think this is a real issue as of the latest patch, but is rather the result of self-deception and misperception.

I am looking for video from you or someone else playing during the most recent patch where two or more shots fail to register on a light mech or fail to damage a light mech in the same match. This is said to be a serious issue that makes lights "unhittable", so if it is happening, providing a single match where this happens 2+times should be no problem. To simplify: 1 video of 1 match where there are 2 failed registrations on light mechs.

So, please post video evidence of this gameplay balance issue occurring. It would further our ability to properly discuss this important gameplay balance issue, and possibly substantiate or disarm the claims being made about light mechs.

I will fill this spoiler tag with all of the Video Evidence of this gameplay balance issue as it is posted:

Spoiler

I'm sorry, there is still no video evidence.

I am rendering a video for you now. I'll post it on my youtube

Youtube.com/VillzMWO

I expect you to edit it into the op PEEF ty

I have slowed the video down to 1/4 speed and included a time stamp for your convenience

GGCLOSE

-Villz

[Mehlan]

Quote

Hit registration seemed to be a largely fixed issue as of last week, but this weekend, the network went haywire, and now HSR is screwing up on all mechs, not Spiders or lights in particular. This is evidenced by the video of multiple missed registrations from 100 meters straight into a Cataphract

Don't forget the rash of disconnects the other evening also....

[mike29tw]

IV Amen, on 23 September 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

I just managed to find a Spider 5D ingame and hunted him down with the Jenner F for you guys debating in this topic. I was focusing on the Spider only (sorry team) and got some good footage. My aim is not the best, but you can clearly see hits and registrations from the video.

You can make your own conclusions.

My ping was around 130.

1:29 Spider mitigates almost the whole duration of 5 medium lasers.

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 23 September 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

They are usually left until last because they are no threat.

No, they survive until last because it's so hard to kill them. If they were left until last you wouldn't hear people constantly saying "stop chasing the lights" in pug matches.
What about when a light runs through your team and there are no other enemy mechs in sight? Do you ignore that light?
No, you shoot the {Scrap} out of it, and it runs away with yellow armour.

Personally i'd rather go up against a team of Atlas than lights. At least i know that if i'm in my Jager there's a better chance of taking out a couple of Atlas before i die.

[Radbane]

I just want to chime in...

I'm a LRM boat (CAT-C4, Tag, 2xLRM20) and when firing upon most bigger mechs in the open I do around 5% of it's total health in damage with a clean hit. Today I fired a few salvos on a tagged Jenner who was standing still (he was acting sniper) and every cluster of 40 missiles ripped 2% of it's total health.

As the lights have less total armor shouldn't I take a bigger chunks of it's health per savlo than from bigger mechs with more armor? I can understand that they can outrun the missiles, I can also buy that they're so small that not all missile splashdamage hits them, but stil... He was standing still without cover and he was tagged.

What's up with that?

[MustrumRidcully]

dario03, on 23 September 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Close your hand really quick and see if lagshield/hsr/hitboxes keep it from getting squished. Only then will we know for sure if theres a problem or not. Its all up to you Funk.

I have a fear of spiders, too, but I am not sure I can condone this.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Which reminds me of...

Should've taken 1080p, but my rig is limited. Apologies. Here's the spider health %'s since youtube made the video look awful and you can't see that well.

Spoiler

0:00 97%
0:03 hit -> 92%
0:08 hit -> 91%
0:10 hit -> 89%
0:17 single ML hits -> 89%
0:30 hit -> 86%
0:48 hit -> 84%
0:52 hit -> 82%
1:00 hit -> 78% (not sure if I hit the SDR or the guy he's passing, either way, my hits aren't registering correctly to hitboxes)
1:06 hit -> 77%
1:11 hit -> 75%
1:29 hit -> 71%
1:40 hit -> 68%
1:46 hit -> 66%
1:52 hit -> 63%
1:52 - 2:03 partial hits -> 58%
2:07 hit -> 54%
2:12 hit -> 52%
2:17 hits -> 49%
2:23 -> Dead at 49%

So in fact I am hitting the spider all the time. But not once was my aim at the spider the whole full second of ML duration. Counted 17 5ML aplhas to take down a Spider who seem to have no rear armor hitboxes Of course to get reliable data we would need someone with more steadier aim.

[MustrumRidcully]

D1al T0ne, on 23 September 2013 - 07:58 PM, said:

This thread is basic illusionist, smoke and mirrors.

Any pre-patch video will be hand waved away because HSR wasn't implemented yet. Any post-patch video will be hand waved away because of current network layer issues which are causing hit detection problems across all mech chassis.

So no video will fit the criteria by the time this topic slides off into necro thread land. No "proof" will have been presented leaving all arguments vs lights looking like unsubstantiated hysteria. Then this thread will be used as "Proof there isn't a problem because someone said so in last weeks thread!"

A tip of the hat to you good sir. Well played.

The simple answer to this thread is that it can't be solved right now. Only PGI could solve it, but they won't.

Wait, wut? They won't? Nope. They drew a line in the sand a few days ago when they pulled that beta tag off and said "We're good to go!" Can you even imagine the fiery **** storm that would ensue if they came out and said "Our metrics show that lights, and the spider in particular, are having hit box issues and aren't taking damage when and where they should be."

If there truly is a problem then they will bury it and baffle us with ******** technical terms until they can fix it, and even then it would be ninja fixed along with a patch that releases a new mech that we can only buy with MC for the first week.

Now, read the thread title. Slowly. Take your time.

In case you are still not sure:

This thread is about finding video evidence that hit registration is problematic on light mechs.
Not any mech. Light Mechs.

Video Evidence has apparantly been presented of hit registration problems with mechs. Light, Medium, Heavy or Assault. Not Lights specifically.

So yeah, there are hit registration issues. They are proven. They need to be fixed.
But there are not light mech hit registration issues. These are not proven. Hence there is no basis to claim that lights are getting extra benefits from poor hit registration, they just benefit as much or little as all the other mechs.

That means hit registration is currently not a direct balance problem in terms of weight classes. (It might still be a balance problem in that it makes weapons less effective, which affects concerns like sustainable damage vs burst damage.)

EDIT:
My advice to PEEFsmash.
Since people have trouble understanding the goal of the thread, lend them a bone. Add a second spoiler tag in your OP, titled: "Evidence of non-mech-specific hit registration issues" and put the videos on that in the block. Maybe then people will get the message. If not, at least you tried as hard as you could.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 24 September 2013 - 03:48 AM.

[Triordinant]

That video clearly establishes the FACT that as of July 23, the Spider has hitbox issues. It has nothing to do with HSR, speed, angle, movement, beam duration or anything else because the target is STANDING STILL. Since the FACT has been clearly established, the logical conclusion is that it continues to be true until proven otherwise.

The burden of proof is therefore on the deniers of this FACT to prove that it is no longer so. Anecdotal evidence is not enough; deniers must show video evidence that the hitbox issue has been fixed since since July 23. The only reliable way to do this is to repeat the experiment shown on the video several times and record them all to prove the hitbox issue has been fixed.

In the absence of such video evidence, the established FACT remains that the Spider has hitbox issues. We do NOT have to post any more videos to prove an established FACT. On the contrary: the deniers have to post videos that prove the Spider hitbox issue has been fixed.

[Mehlan]

Triordinant, on 24 September 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

That video clearly establishes the FACT that as of July 23, the Spider has hitbox issues. It has nothing to do with HSR, speed, angle, movement, beam duration or anything else because the target is STANDING STILL. Since the FACT has been clearly established, the logical conclusion is that it continues to be true until proven otherwise.

The burden of proof is therefore on the deniers of this FACT to prove that it is no longer so. Anecdotal evidence is not enough; deniers must show video evidence that the hitbox issue has been fixed since since July 23. The only reliable way to do this is to repeat the experiment shown on the video several times and record them all to prove the hitbox issue has been fixed.

In the absence of such video evidence, the established FACT remains that the Spider has hitbox issues. We do NOT have to post any more videos to prove an established FACT. On the contrary: the deniers have to post videos that prove the Spider hitbox issue has been fixed.

Not accurate... with each patch it should be checked and verified the 'hole' which you mention still exists. Now take your 'spot' examine the videos and explain how this applies to the complaints, or is it your premise...that 'hole' is moving all about the mech absorbing damage? It's a good find, and I believe stJobe has already pointed out that gap and that is also exists with at least a few other mechs.