7 replies to this topic

[The Black Veil]

**DISCLAIMER**

THIS IS LIKELY NOT THE RIGHT FORUM, BUT FOR SOME REASON IS THE ONLY ONE THAT WOULD ALLOW ME TO POST.

I DO NOT KNOW IF THE ISSUES I AM ABOUT TO INQUIRE ABOUT ARE RESULTS OF THE MOST RECENT PATCHES OR WHAT -- I'M NOT GOING TO LOOK THROUGH 262 SETS OF PATCH NOTES TO FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED WHERE.

**DISCLAIMER**

So, I haven't played in some time. I just didn't have the time to dedicate back when the game was still in closed beta. There were a lot of things going right and a few things that needed fixing, but overall this game was true to its IP.

I've just booted the game back up at the behest of a friend and let me just start out saying: it's still fun. I wish people communicated more, but that's not something the game or its devs can control.

Off the bat, I have three predominent gripes that I'd love some kind of Honest Abe answer(s) for.

• Why can I no longer use my Jenner to jumpjet-knockdown 'mechs? For that matter, why can I not knock ANY 'mechs down in any way? An entire strategic dimension is gone from the game that made closed (and even the part of open that I was involved with) beta great and challenging. There's got to be some good reason other than, "it sucked to be knocked over."

• Where is the grainy look that was present during closed/open beta? Everything feels really colorful and poppy now and less gritty and grimy and woe-begone (a vibe I feel the BattleTech universe lives in).

• Why is heat management so FUBAR? In open/closed heat management was a serious part of the strategic and tactical fight. So much so that you had to choose when and where to engage and use jump jets. It even determined what ROUTE you and your Lance might take. Now, it seems like it's taken a massive backseat to "instant gratification" style combat, where you are constantly and quickly involved in laser shots, cannon fire, and missile barrages that are outrageously disproportionate.

TL;DR: Where'd film grain/gritty look go? What happened to heat management? Where's my knockdown tactic?

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this and actually explain what's happened to the game insomuch as these three facets are concerned.

Edited by The Black Veil, 22 September 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[Maxtaltos]

I never played closed Beta, so I can't answer all of your questions. But I will express some opinions on two and ask a question on the middle one. First I am not sure what the "grainy look" looked like so I can't compare, but I would assume that they felt the newer look appealed to more people. Second, what mech are you piloting that you have no heat issues? Heat management is still there as far as I can tell. I hate terra therma or as some call it the "one ring room" because it makes my mech run hotter. 3rd I am glad they took out the knockdown collision in the game. I find it ludicrous that a 35 ton mech could knock over a mech weighing almost 3 times as much. This tactic works ok in the TT version because you have skill rolls to avoid those situations. Skill rolls that would be almost impossible to simulate in game. You can still damage mechs running into them, you just don't knock em down.

[Malzel]

1) Collisions were removed because Dragons could knock down anything just by running into them, and 2 or 3 Dragons could keep someone permanently prone. That's not balanced, or fun for the guy on the ground. They've said collisions will return when they figure out how to implement them fairly. (Which is going to take a back seat to other, more important features)

2) I've played since the week the game went Open Beta, and I'm not sure what you mean about the "grainy look". To me, most MWO maps are a palettes of different shades of brown, (except the ones that are palettes of shades of white!) so I don't know what to say about the game being "colorful". I suppose there are those bushes on Canyon Network, they're kinda vibrant. Could it be that folks can paint their mechs, so teams aren't just a sea of olive drab?

3) I'm not sure what this question is about, since you don't provide any real information. You seem to be saying that heat management doesn't exist, to which I would disagree. It's very easy to overheat yourself, especially if you're bringing the "good" weapons or loadouts. Could you explain your gripe a little better?

[The Black Veil]

Maxtaltos, on 22 September 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

First I am not sure what the "grainy look" looked like so I can't compare, but I would assume that they felt the newer look appealed to more people.

I figured this might be the case.

Maxtaltos, on 22 September 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Second, what mech are you piloting that you have no heat issues? Heat management is still there as far as I can tell. I hate terra therma or as some call it the "one ring room" because it makes my mech run hotter.

I'm running, atm, the trial Jenner that was available as recently as yesterday. I have almost no issues with heat. It's just a matter of runnign around a hill and I'm back to zero. Ambient temperature used to be a lot more... concerning.

Maxtaltos, on 22 September 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

3rd I am glad they took out the knockdown collision in the game. I find it ludicrous that a 35 ton mech could knock over a mech weighing almost 3 times as much. This tactic works ok in the TT version because you have skill rolls to avoid those situations. Skill rolls that would be almost impossible to simulate in game. You can still damage mechs running into them, you just don't knock em down.

Knock down was, to me, part of the strategy. If you didn't want to be knocked down, maneuver more. It's supposed to be challenging. However, I agree it needed fine tuning. A light 'mech should not be able to knock over a medium mech or larger in most situations. I figured that they got rid of it because "it sucked to be knocked down."

Malzel, on 22 September 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

1) Collisions were removed because Dragons could knock down anything just by running into them, and 2 or 3 Dragons could keep someone permanently prone. That's not balanced, or fun for the guy on the ground. They've said collisions will return when they figure out how to implement them fairly. (Which is going to take a back seat to other, more important features)

Well, that's exciting to know they've at least made a statement saying they plan on bringing it back. As I said above, I think that it was a legitimate strategy that it took skill to defend against.

Malzel, on 22 September 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

2) I've played since the week the game went Open Beta, and I'm not sure what you mean about the "grainy look". To me, most MWO maps are a palettes of different shades of brown, (except the ones that are palettes of shades of white!) so I don't know what to say about the game being "colorful". I suppose there are those bushes on Canyon Network, they're kinda vibrant. Could it be that folks can paint their mechs, so teams aren't just a sea of olive drab?

Maybe that's it. I just seem to remember the whole view being a bit grittier. Now it feels like day-glo colors. Perhaps I'm used to the oceans of sepia, but it seems overly colorful. It'll likely grow on me.

Malzel, on 22 September 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

3) I'm not sure what this question is about, since you don't provide any real information. You seem to be saying that heat management doesn't exist, to which I would disagree. It's very easy to overheat yourself, especially if you're bringing the "good" weapons or loadouts. Could you explain your gripe a little better?

There feels to be a mark'd lack of heat management involved. Now, admittedly, I'm running a light mech most of the time but said 'mech is chock full of lasers and has pretty decent heat management. It just feels like there isn't any delay or down time (which, arguably, might be good) between being overheated and coming down into manageable territory. When I was playing, back when, heat management was pretty severe.

The differences in ambient heat on maps made a severe impact in how you played, too. Maybe it's because I'm still running the Trial Light 'Mech, but it just seems like I'm able to run around and take pot shots at everything for an unending amount of time. If ever I DO overheat, I need but run around the nearest hill and by the time I've made my circle I'm back within 10%. Just seems less... involved.

And all this nonsense about ghost heat... what? The concept, actually, is neat, but the execution is ridiculous. Ghost heat only exists if you use multiples of the same weapon? What?

I don't mean to be totally flippant and complain-y. The game is still fun, regardless of these items, it just feels less strategic, less real, and like it's catering a bit more to the instant gratification types.

EDIT: Thanks for responding, by the way. I was prepared to either be totally downvoted into oblivion or flamed to a crisp.

Edited by The Black Veil, 23 September 2013 - 09:19 AM.

[Kazly]

I don't think it was the dragon that collision was removed, but HSR. People would get knocked down, and would warp significantly. They'd pop back up and be elsewhere the rest of hte game - if I remember right. I dunno though, maybe it was the dragon *Shrugs*.

[Kazly]

http://mwomercs.com/...vs-42-answered/

Specifically:

• UI 2.0 – in development.
  
• CW – late stage design, in development.
  
• DX11 – ready for test.
  
• 12v12 – in public test.
  
• Tutorial (movement only) – ready for test.
  
• 3PV – in development, nearing ready for test.
  
• Achievements – late stage design, in development.
  
• New Store – in development.
  
• Private Matches – early design
  
• Tonnage Limits – late stage design
  
• Lobby – late state design, in development
  
• Collision – on hold until launch.
  
• Passive Sensors – early design
  
• Decals – ready for development
  
• Gifting – in development
  
• Urbanmech – no eta
  
• Clan Tags – See CW

[The Black Veil]

Thanks for that list, Kazly.

I actually just stumbled into a different subforum's thread that does the math for heat calculation... I'm not sure how I feel about the actual calculation of heat, thus far.

I'm also not sure that limiting alpha strikes by weapon sits well with me. Some more stuff to brood on while I zip around the map.

[Malzel]

The Black Veil, on 23 September 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

There feels to be a mark'd lack of heat management involved. Now, admittedly, I'm running a light mech most of the time but said 'mech is chock full of lasers and has pretty decent heat management. It just feels like there isn't any delay or down time (which, arguably, might be good) between being overheated and coming down into manageable territory. When I was playing, back when, heat management was pretty severe.

The differences in ambient heat on maps made a severe impact in how you played, too. Maybe it's because I'm still running the Trial Light 'Mech, but it just seems like I'm able to run around and take pot shots at everything for an unending amount of time. If ever I DO overheat, I need but run around the nearest hill and by the time I've made my circle I'm back within 10%. Just seems less... involved.

I see what you mean. If you're used to running trial mechs, the difference is that all 4 trials right now are optimized "Champion" mechs, which come fully loaded with double-heatsinks and enough of them to easily handle their weapon loadouts. With 15 DHS for only 3 medium lasers and 3 small ones, the JR7-F© is just ridiculously heat efficient, but it's a little under-gunned from a competitive standpoint. If you bought it and upgraded the 3 small lasers to 3 more mediums, (A more common, more effective build) the difference would be instantly noticeable.

Most "competitive" loadouts run much hotter than those trials, and you have to pick your shots and practice a little fire discipline or spend a lot of time shut down. There are some exceptions, but trust me, the past few months have spent a lot of time and effort to make heat management harder, not easier.

The Black Veil, on 23 September 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

And all this nonsense about ghost heat... what? The concept, actually, is neat, but the execution is ridiculous. Ghost heat only exists if you use multiples of the same weapon? What?

It's to stop the phenomenon of "boating". We all went through a phase for 6 months or so, where folks would load up 4-6 PPCs or 2 AC/20s and simply devastate anything they came across in one or two shots. Builds with 5 large lasers, or 6 SRM/6s took a little longer, but you still died in seconds unless you were using a similar high-alpha build to compete. The game became extremely unforgiving, highly frustrating, and often pretty boring.

"Ghost heat" is the name given by critics, but a better title would be "Alpha Strike Penalties". They keep you from cramming a bunch of high-damage, pinpoint accuracy weapons into a mech and walking around alpha striking constantly. Now you have to chain fire, or wait long periods between shots to cool down, or risk killing yourself by instantly overheating.

The system has taken a lot of flak for being unintuitive or silly, but I don't think anyone can deny that it, in addition to the recent tweaks to Gauss rifles, PPCs, and UACs, has achieved its intended design goal. The high-alpha builds that dominated the game are still possible to use and dominate with, but they're rare because most folks don't have the fire discipline to avoid instantly overheating themselves, or just don't want to risk it.

Playing in the past few weeks, I haven't noticed "one Build to rule them all", and I haven't been able to say that since I started playing last October. Even with everyone trying to get through 24 games as quickly as they can to finish the Op-24 challenge, there's a great diversity in loadouts in the game right now, and that's awesome.