64 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Sorry but the PPC and ER PPC have a place in MWO. It is the same place it has on TT. The hottest and most powerful energy weapon available.

[Karl Streiger]

Keep the PPCs as they are actually.

No mech is limited to PPCs only...I mean i ran a Grand Dragon...since the Flame was sold....I have a single ER-PPC and it is a viable build - no matter if that ERPPC does 12 or 15 heat... to admit - i think that the 3 MLAS overheat that mech much faster - so reduced the heat for MLAS?

Or i can remember that had a shut down after i have fired the LRMs...so reduce heat for LRMs?

Wait - one ... i tend to use gimp builds .... my AS7-D (F) didn't changed since last December...
ER-PPCs, Gauss, SRMs and a Large Pulse Laser.... you know what...its still a deadly machine - when heat is a problem i take gauss...at short range i don't even need the PPCs...i have SRMs and the LPLAS to do the job.

complaining about heat for the ER-PPC means - you still don't have the idea of creating a rich but efficient build - using the full armory

Edited by Karl Streiger, 25 September 2013 - 06:53 AM.

[D Sync]

Oppi, on 24 September 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

PPC : Particle Projector Cannon

They fire an ionized particle stream, so technically they are projectile weapons, only their "ammo" takes next to no space in your mech, so they don't count as such for game purposes.

People who try to use tailored fluff explanations to justify their need for cheese really annoy me ...

Please, explain how charged subatomic particles can travel slower than a solid object.


I'm very interested in reading your explanation.

[Iron War]

Are PPCs still particle accelerators? Shouldnt the parjectile be going near the speed of light? Pritty sure in MW lore they were also characterized as man-made lighting . . . i guess slow slow lightning . . .

http://wiki.answers....ed_of_lightning

Keep the heat, up the projectile speed.

Edited by Iron War, 27 September 2013 - 09:12 PM.

[Tesunie]

SuperUser013, on 23 September 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

There is no possible way a nickle coated chunk of steel can travel faster than light. PPC's are an energy weapon, basically point and shoot. How did PPC's become slower than the Gauss?

Contrary to popular belief, PPC is not light, but "artificial lightning" AKA, electricity. Electricity does not move at the speed of light (lasers do), but moves at the speed of Electricity going through the air.

Gauss Rifles throw a nickle-ferros slug faster than the speed of sound (it breaks the sound barrier). The question that should be ask is, at what mach does the slug move, and how fast does lightning move through normal air?

So, it is possible for a Gauss Rifle to be faster than a PPC without more defined information on how fast each projectile moves. Also, when talking BT, most science gets a little odd if you look too closely, this might be one of those times.

[xRatas]

Tesunie, on 27 September 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Gauss Rifles throw a nickle-ferros slug faster than the speed of sound (it breaks the sound barrier). The question that should be ask is, at what mach does the slug move, and how fast does lightning move through normal air?

Tests have given 50-4000 kilometers per second speeds for lighting, so quite a few mach. According to internets of course.

Edited by xRatas, 27 September 2013 - 10:41 PM.

[D Sync]

Tesunie, on 27 September 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Contrary to popular belief, PPC is not light, but "artificial lightning" AKA, electricity. Electricity does not move at the speed of light (lasers do), but moves at the speed of Electricity going through the air.

Gauss Rifles throw a nickle-ferros slug faster than the speed of sound (it breaks the sound barrier). The question that should be ask is, at what mach does the slug move, and how fast does lightning move through normal air?

So, it is possible for a Gauss Rifle to be faster than a PPC without more defined information on how fast each projectile moves. Also, when talking BT, most science gets a little odd if you look too closely, this might be one of those times.

Intriguing, how one could concede the point in the same paragraph in which they argue the point.

Given relative humidity, temperature and elevation the speed of sound is ~340 meters per second. Charged subatomic particles, when encouraged to do so, travel ~300 x 10^6 meters per second.

Do the math.


Personally, I miss using the PPC .. if the velocity were to be increased and the heat to stay the same I would use them again. Until then, there is very little justification in using PPC's.


Furthermore, the larger the projectile the less efficient the system will be not to mention the enormity of the system. That would make the Gauss quite a bit heavier than what we are seeing the game today. Instead of crippling the Gauss by adding tonnage .. let's just get the speeds of both weapons to a respectable level.

Edited by SuperUser013, 28 September 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[Mack1]

You can argue this until the cows come home but the horrible fact remains that MWO is now a boring game, it's good for a quick game now and then but that's about it. The reason is that every battle will go exactly the same way because every Mech has pretty much exactly the same build.

The LRM boats, Snipers and PPC Mechs used to force people to think about their next move, you could not simply run around the map without a care in the world. You could not just march around the crater on caustic or run across the water on forest colony. It added variety to the tactics as they stopped people rushing to the middle of the map for a brawl.

Now that the above Mechs are pretty much all in museums the lanes are open, the flanks are bare, the open plains are safe so lets all march in a line to the middle and blow the {Scrap} out of each other over, and over again.

What a sad state of affairs we have now.

[KharnZor]

Mack1, on 28 September 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

You can argue this until the cows come home but the horrible fact remains that MWO is now a boring game, it's good for a quick game now and then but that's about it. The reason is that every battle will go exactly the same way because every Mech has pretty much exactly the same build.

The LRM boats, Snipers and PPC Mechs used to force people to think about their next move, you could not simply run around the map without a care in the world. You could not just march around the crater on caustic or run across the water on forest colony. It added variety to the tactics as they stopped people rushing to the middle of the map for a brawl.

Now that the above Mechs are pretty much all in museums the lanes are open, the flanks are bare, the open plains are safe so lets all march in a line to the middle and blow the {Scrap} out of each other over, and over again.

What a sad state of affairs we have now.

Sorry but you are wrong. Every mech is fitted the same way you say? Nope, atm there are more varied builds than there has been in months right across the whole range.
Second underlined, agreed but if you think those ppc snipers and lrm boats are gone then you are sorely mistaken.
The only thing that's in the museum is your attitude towards your builds, stop crying and adapt.

[Villz]

SuperUser013, on 24 September 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

I'd like to see more balanced builds on the field, instead of all of the min-max builds. Which takes very little skill, just slap 2x A/C 20 and roll out.

Who are you to proclaimed to be skilled as to know what exactly it is your trying to claim a definition / knowledge of ?

I truely wish pgi would get public elo here and attached to gameplay balance forums so we could know what context they were speaking from. And by that i mean as to what area of the game their anecdotal evidence / testimoney / opinion is coming from.



That was my first game back when they nerfed Gauss with charge time and added 15ERPPC heat.

Grimlockone a well known player was on my team as to testimoney if you really do wish to inquire.

I do proclaim to be good i am lord villz ggclose

It is not a viable weapon system on a hot map and this just highlights how game balance can not be attained ie "META GAME LOLZ"

Until people figure out how the different environmental heat varies from exactly map to map and pre knowledge of which map that would be (prepared for min/max).

ERPPCS on frozen city and probably forest colony snow are useable as a limited support role. If you place yourself long range and really benefit from the ability to deal damage whilst taking minimal in return (low erll dmg 800 or so range) so you can deal damage using extended firefights using the gauss off cooldown and heat dumping via the erppcs ( managing heat not shutting down over and over unless jump sniping from cover )

However erppcs are impractical on hot maps caustic you cant justify having more than erppc sniper ever ever and even then its not optimal an example where lrms are actually useful also however not normally.

You have to remember that its not just your experience that has to be factored into when balancing properly. At the end of the day it comes to this the people who play the most or gain the most in terms of skill by the amount of time they play will always find what works best through trial and error always. This will then give them an understanding of the game in how what they are doing works and how to use that in future planning. Through the trickle down process you will come across this "meta"
but really just the most effective way of dealing damage in reality. And through your own eventual discovery or by being killed badly by it and copying it it eventually becomes somewhat like a heard like movement where people have these builds and don't even understand why it works in the first place.

Whilst your angle regardless is taken into consideration when you do something like this the fastest way to somewhat smooth over the playing field is to watch these players and try and see what they are doing and why yourself. This game is as much a mental exercise as much as skill twitch .

I do post videos on reddit everytime they come out on my youtube channel

www.youtube.com/VillzMWO

hopefully i can just trickle the builds down fast enough that the game shifts quickly and forces changes to be made to level the playing feild.

And with any luck it won't be at the addition of any complex non user friendly in an already deep game (new player conducive?) cough **GHOSTHEAT** cough

but yeh i'd liek to see this game become very competitive and exciting and interesting to play so hopefully people realise they themselves have improvements to be made all the time to get more understanding of the depth and speak with an informed voice.

ggclose

Lord Villz

[Villz]

My new series on the best of the meta is coming out starting this week with my personal recommendations for min max configuration. If you want to see them just sub to or check out the new ones feel free.

-Lord Villz

[Mack1]

KharnZor, on 28 September 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Sorry but you are wrong. Every mech is fitted the same way you say? Nope, atm there are more varied builds than there has been in months right across the whole range.
Second underlined, agreed but if you think those ppc snipers and lrm boats are gone then you are sorely mistaken.
The only thing that's in the museum is your attitude towards your builds, stop crying and adapt.

There is nothing to adapt too, it's totally easy, am notching up more DMG then ever before now, it's literally easymode. Add me as friend, I will play a few games with you and fraps them and I will stake my reputation on it that all the games will involve the entire team walking to the middle and then pew pewing to death. All the builds will be slight variations of the same boring loadout, no LRM boats, No Snipers and certainly no heavy PPC builds.

Your post proves you can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? I look forward to playing a few games with you and proving my point or are you just a keyboard warrior?

[Coralld]

Perhaps the PPC is a "plasma bolt" sense plasma by its very nature is a mass of charged particals.

FROM THE INTERWEBS
http://education.jla.../plasma_01.html

So, depending on how said state of plasma is formed and projected, it wouldn't be all that hard to believe that it could be slower then a Gauss/Rail gun projectile.

Edited by Coralld, 28 September 2013 - 08:51 AM.

[CutterWolf]

Mack1, on 28 September 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

There is nothing to adapt too, it's totally easy, am notching up more DMG then ever before now, it's literally easymode. Add me as friend, I will play a few games with you and fraps them and I will stake my reputation on it that all the games will involve the entire team walking to the middle and then pew pewing to death. All the builds will be slight variations of the same boring loadout, no LRM boats, No Snipers and certainly no heavy PPC builds.

Your post proves you can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? I look forward to playing a few games with you and proving my point or are you just a keyboard warrior?

Mack1 is right, this game is now back to where it was during closed beta, "Brawl fest" why? Easy, long range builds have now been removed. This is why you can't balance a game using "wack-a-mole". Anytime you make weapons changes you have to cross walk those changes down your weapons line to see how they effect other systems.

PGI for whatever reason does not do this and that is why you see what we have now. The other reason why PGI has a nitemare on its hands trying to balance weapons is its hardpoint system. Instead of sticking with crits & limited size hardpoints (which is the system they started with) they went with unlimited size hardpoints since they did not want to limit customization.

This was a huge mistake since it in fact forces "limited customization" since everyone will just mount the most effective weapons only, on the most effective mechs only which creates cookie cutter builds. Forcing players to use less effective weapons do to limited size forces customization and push's more weapon systems and lesser used mechs to the field. This is the only way to see more tactics and more fun as players come up with truly custom mech builds. This system also does not take into account Clan tech and the advancements in tech that are coming soon which will allow for even more out of control weapon balance issues.

A limited hardpoint system "would of" stopped all of these issues and created a real role warfare system which was one of the original design pillars. With all of the original design pillars now broken this is what you end up with, "boring game play without any reason to play since there are no challenges, goals or achievements to strive for."

Edited by CutterWolf, 28 September 2013 - 09:44 AM.

[D Sync]

Mack1, on 28 September 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

You can argue this until the cows come home but the horrible fact remains that MWO is now a boring game, it's good for a quick game now and then but that's about it. The reason is that every battle will go exactly the same way because every Mech has pretty much exactly the same build.

The LRM boats, Snipers and PPC Mechs used to force people to think about their next move, you could not simply run around the map without a care in the world. You could not just march around the crater on caustic or run across the water on forest colony. It added variety to the tactics as they stopped people rushing to the middle of the map for a brawl.

Now that the above Mechs are pretty much all in museums the lanes are open, the flanks are bare, the open plains are safe so lets all march in a line to the middle and blow the {Scrap} out of each other over, and over again.

What a sad state of affairs we have now.

This is what I did with a stock-build AS7-D-DC. First time out with this build, actually. I had more fun playing this balanced build than I ever have with my "charger" build.

Edited by SuperUser013, 28 September 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

The PPC is no plasma gun. There is a real plasma gun in lore.

The PPC itself only creates plasma on the outside of its shot. So does lightning btw. Lightning is no plasma ball either, or am I wrong? It makes air to go in the state of plasma, thats it.

So no, you can't compare a plasma guns speed with that of an ppc. You rather have to compare it to lightning (whichs speed is also not the speed of light, but way faster than sound...)

PPCs fire ions and protons, which a both atoms with electronic charge or subatomic particles. To accelerate these there is way less energy required than for a gaus projectile. To justify the high heat the speed has to be increased again.

The min range should also be reverted to what it was. This nerf was just too much. 2 points of heat within a month in addition to the reduction of speed and min range... A PPC has the same range as a LL: 540-90 = 450... Just think about it.

It's not that it sucks, it's just breathtakingly underwhelming...A feared weapon? My *** is a more feared weapon than that...

[D Sync]

To be fair, I have been playing with the Assaults and the Heavies far longer than any other weight class. This does put me at an unfair advantage against those who have not.

JohnnyWayne, on 28 September 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

The PPC is no plasma gun. There is a real plasma gun in lore.

The PPC itself only creates plasma on the outside of its shot. So does lightning btw. Lightning is no plasma ball either, or am I wrong? It makes air to go in the state of plasma, thats it.

So no, you can't compare a plasma guns speed with that of an ppc. You rather have to compare it to lightning (whichs speed is also not the speed of light, but way faster than sound...)

PPCs fire ions and protons, which a both atoms with electronic charge or subatomic particles. To accelerate these there is way less energy required than for a gaus projectile. To justify the high heat the speed has to be increased again.

The min range should also be reverted to what it was. This nerf was just too much. 2 points of heat within a month in addition to the reduction of speed and min range... A PPC has the same range as a LL: 540-90 = 450... Just think about it.

It's not that it sucks, it's just breathtakingly underwhelming...A feared weapon? My *** is a more feared weapon than that...

It is simple, the velocity of sound is ~340 meters per second and the velocity of charged subatomic particles can reach 300 x 10^6 meters per second. The PPC needs higher velocity and the Gauss to be a little less .. to be more realistic. I know this is a game and all .. but c'mon.

[VikingN1nja]

Here is my suggestion,


PPC + GAUSS = CHARGE, MISSLES/LASERS + GAUSS = NO CHARGE (AS IT WAS)

[Mack1]

As has already been mentioned we really need to force role warefare by limiting hardpoint sizes and also limiting classes in each drop.

[Joehunk]

Hey I've been away from MWO for a while, and I am horribly confused by this thread. When I checked back last, it was in Feb, and ERPPCs had just been reduced from 13 heat to 11. Now they are back up to 15? Did something else happen to the game to make that make sense, or is PGI just going back and forth on balance?