211 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

If we speak about univeses vs eahc other, well sure prime directive counts for the federation, but we still have many badass guys not belonging to that restriction. We were sololy speakign about the tehcnological capabilities of the universe. And how by technology ST would beat the BT universe. The faction of that universe doing this would be rather unimportant.

Marack Drock, on 20 October 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Because of 500 years of Mech Factories making over 300 different designs in the Inner Sphere, about 60 designs in the Clans being produced every year (that is not the number just the number of DESIGNS), and over 30 small factions making mechs of their own. For 500 years.

Therefore if each mech factory produced an optimal amount of 100 of each design it would be close to a couple thousand a month (including Clans) and probably close to 500,000 in a year.

When you consider almost every Canon merc unit, faction, etc has mechs there must be close to 1 billion just to supply each military of each of the 40ish factions. Think about it. There are at least 50 Canon Merc units with at least a few hundred in each then the factions with garrisons of mechs on each planet (a garrison is what 45 mechs) and Hood IV had 4 Garrisons during the Clan Wars (that is 200ish mechs). And there are thousands upon thousands of planets with garrisons and tons else.

In order for there to be enough to fill the role on each planet, each military, and at the rate they'd be produced there has to be close to 1 billion after 500 years of them being created.

Majority of mechs have been detsroyed by battles, its not that they stored them in big halls. Futher more many mechs have been stripped to upgrade or repair other mechs. Sure they may have build many mechs over time, but most are gone adn the number of active mechs is not that big. And some mechs even have production numbers of what? Less than 10 per year. So even with many variants some Battlemechs are rare.

[Karl Streiger]

Mr Psycho, on 21 October 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Speaking of the U.S. Do you think they are designing mechs but are keeping it classified? Because I do.

well spending millions into "projects" that can't even lift of is a hallmark of the US military - it could be indeed possible.

A company of battlemechs can be beaten by a single man and a laser designator - or by the typical insurgent with a RPG - a single hit into the knee and its done.

A planet full of soldiers can be beaten by a Star Destroyer - and we are done

A Jedi can beat a death star.... but while jedi should be able to block laser fire with there sword... its obvious that Jedis are a myth... so a jedi can't beat the death star - that means a single a-fighter can't beat the Executor - Dreadnought.

Ergo - no matter what you do.... Star Wars beat them all.

[Rogue Jedi]

Marack Drock, on 20 October 2014 - 06:10 PM, said:

Because of 500 years of Mech Factories making over 300 different designs in the Inner Sphere, about 60 designs in the Clans being produced every year (that is not the number just the number of DESIGNS), and over 30 small factions making mechs of their own. For 500 years.

Therefore if each mech factory produced an optimal amount of 100 of each design it would be close to a couple thousand a month (including Clans) and probably close to 500,000 in a year.

When you consider almost every Canon merc unit, faction, etc has mechs there must be close to 1 billion just to supply each military of each of the 40ish factions. Think about it. There are at least 50 Canon Merc units with at least a few hundred in each then the factions with garrisons of mechs on each planet (a garrison is what 45 mechs) and Hood IV had 4 Garrisons during the Clan Wars (that is 200ish mechs). And there are thousands upon thousands of planets with garrisons and tons else.

In order for there to be enough to fill the role on each planet, each military, and at the rate they'd be produced there has to be close to 1 billion after 500 years of them being created.

sorry Marack, even using your maths based, as others have pointed out, on inaccurate assumptions, that would only be 250 million mechs constructed total, so again how do you figute 1 billion+

lets forget the fact that half of those models are not produced before the 3050s, and many of the older moldels could not be produced for the 300 years between the SLDF exidus and Clan Invasion, and the fact that some of the older models were only produced for a few years before there factorys were destroyed in the first succesion war, and while some models were truely mass porduced others only ever had single figures produced per year.

Mechs are not indestructable, sometimes they are irreprably damaged in battle meaning they would be canabalized to fix other mechs, it is not unreasionable to assume (based on the ammount of combat in battletech) that 10% of mechs would be irepably damaged in battle per year, so even it your half a million Mechs produced a year produces would only compound to about 5 million after 5oo years, due to average losses reaching the average number produced

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 21 October 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[Matta]

1 word:
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Borg

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 21 October 2014 - 08:00 AM, said:

Now consider that the current BT standing is 3135. How many mechs then? Also consider there are a couple hundred (maybe 1000) factories producing mechs.

Also Lily, we are unable to get any numbers on mechs destroyed therefore until we do we cannot factor in that variable yet. BT has no solid evidence most mechs were destroyed at all. Actually quite the contrary as every unit, garrison, defense, etc has mechs on every planet.

1000 Factories producing about 500 to 1000 every few months month (each) would come to 210,000,000 mechs and that is only at 3050 AD current standing. If there are 1000 factories then it is boosted to 4.2 billion by the year 3135.

This is if 1000 factories produced 1000 mechs each 2 months (which is slower than Ford, GM, and Chrysler making cars a month put together).

Again your math is still to high, their is little to indicate that battlemech production is 500 mechs per month per type (incidentally 500-1000 per year is what we got canonically for a houses entire mech production in 3025), let alone for most factories to be producing much above 100, also they do not have 1,000 factories, Battlemechs are not cars, they are far more complex than anything we have at this time for their size, We did not see 1,000 F-22 Raptors being built in a year, nor are they planing to build 1,000 F-35s a year when it hits full production, and modern fighter jets are the closest we have that is compatible in complexity. Heck we did not build 1,000 M1 Abrams MBTs a year either (at best it was about 800, split between 2 factories).


Here is the AFFS production as of 3080. Battlemechs will be in bold

Axton
Wangker Aerospace
Corsair, Thunderbird Aerospace Fighters
===============
Bell
Bell Refit Yards
Firebee, Clint (Refit) BattleMechs, Refits
=================
Kathil
General Motors Annex
Pandion WiGE, Ajax Assault Tank, Challenger MBT,
Darter Scout Car, Minion Advanced Tactical Vehicle, Morningstar
City Command Tank Vehicles

Federated-Boeing
(Formerly Universal Air)
Invader JumpShip (repair only)
=======================
New Hessen
Hessen Industrial Works
BattleAxe and Hammerhands Primitive BattleMechs
Vedette, Striker, LRM carrier, Heavy Hover,
Heavy Tracked, and Heavy Wheeled APCs
Defender II Medium Strike Fighter.

Hessen WorkMechs
Rook BattleMech
=================
New Syrtis
New Syrtis Shipyards
Jumpship Repair and Refits
=================
Salem
General Motors
Ajax, APC, Behemoth, Challenger, Heavy Wheeled
APC, Wheeled and Tracked APC, Pandion WiGE class vehicles,
Hauberk Class Battle Armor
======================
Talcott
General Motors
Blackjack, Whitworth (Refit) BattleMechs, Cavalier,
Grenadier Battle Armor

===========
Augusta
Corean Enterprises
Devastator, Legionnaire BattleMechs
===========

Belladonna
Cal-Boeing Combat Systems
Boomerang Spotter Plane, Cavalry, Ferret, Marten,
Ripper VTOLs
===============
Bristol
Jolassa-Kumbold Armored Weapons
Fury Vehicle
=================
Cahokia
Achernar BattleMechs
Legionnaire BattleMech
============
Colorado
Basantapur Fine Metals Aerospace Range
Aerospace Repair and Refit facilities, Drake Medium
Strike Fighter
===============

Delavan
Dynamico Ltd .
Aurora, Avenger, Buccaneer DropShips

Federated -Boeing
Excalibur, Excalibur PWS, Arondight DropShips, Invader,
Star Lord JumpShips, Ares Assault Craft, Ares Landing Craft
===================
El Dorado
General Motors El Camino Facility
Warlord BattleMech, Repair and Refit facilities

=========================

Johnsondale
Valiant Systems
Pegasus Scout Hover Tank, Ranger AFV, Striker
Light Tank, Pilum Heavy Tank
==================
Kirklin
Kallon Weapon Industries
Rifleman (Refit) BattleMech, Challenger MBT, Partisan Heavy Tank
===================

Layover
Quikscell Company
Autocannon, Arrow IV, LRM, SRM, and Laser
Carriers, Heavy Tracked APC, Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun,
Scorpion Light Tank, Vedette Medium Tank

Salvatore Inc.
Seeker DropShip, K-1 DropShuttle

Kallon Weapon Industries
Arondight PWS, Vengeance DropShips

===============
New Avalon
Corean Enterprises
Fireball, Centurion, Valkyrie BattleMechs; Musketeer Hover Tank

Achernar BattleMechs
Dervish, Enforcer III, Battleaxe, Hammerhands BattleMechs,
Repair and Refit Facilities

Albion Advanced Techno logies and Products (A division of ACHERNAR BattleMechs )
Legionnaire BattleMechs, Cavalier, Grenadier,
Infiltrator MK II, Sloth Battle Armors,

Lycomb-Davion Intro Tech
Stuka, Lighting Aerospace Fighters, Comet Light Strike
Fighter, Artillery weapons

New Valencia
General Motors Heavy Industries
Blackjack Omni, Falconer, Victor BattleMechs, Ajax
Assault Tank, Pandion Combat WiGE Vehicles

==================
Benet III
Johnston Industries
Valiant BattleMech
==========
Exeter
Galtor Naval Yards
Neptune, Rapier Patrol Destroyer Vehicles
==========
Robinson
Robinson Standard
Battle Works
Argus, Atlas, Sentry, Ostsol (Refit) BattleMechs

============
Tancredi IV
Precision Weaponry
Rifleman, Rook, and Battleaxe Primitive BattleMechs; Heavy Weapons

================
Crofton
Star Corps Industries
Avatar, Black Hawk-KU, Emperor, Gallant, Longbow, Stalker, Sunder, Thanatos, Warhammer BattleMechs;
J Edgar Light Hover Tank, Manteuffel Attack Tank Vehicles

Firgrove
Clyde Shipyards
Arondight, Colossus DropShips

Geenock Flight Academy
Vulcan Aerospace Fighter
============

Panpour
Challenge Systems
Monolith JumpShips

Jalastar Aerospace
Javelin BattleMech
Sabre, Sparrowhawk Aerospace Fighters
Comet, Defender II, Meteor-U Conventional Fighters
Condor Hover Tank, Myrmidon Medium Tank, Manticore Heavy Tank, Typhoon Assault Vehicles

Shawnee
Iroquois Machinery Limited
Toro Primitive BattleMech
==================================================================

This is not even close to 1,000 factorys, it's not even close to 100 lines for battlemechs (it's only 36), Sure their might be some minor factories not listed, but their not going to be building much compaired to the ones listed here. Also what little we do have indicates that no battlemech is being built at rates in excess of 250 mechs per year, at lest post 2800


Production wise
Battlemechs, some in the current era are being built at the rates of a regiment or two per year, (Vulcan indicates 240 per year (line destroyed in 3069, started in 3052), the Valkyrie is 130 per year in 3025, The Daboku had 300 made in a short production run starting in 3038, though it's not clear just how long that was, though it would seem it was likely under 5 years, these being the highest values known that I know of for battlemechs out side of the star league era).

However most mechs as far as I know that have any indication of a production rate are being built at a rate of a battalion or so per year (effectively one a week). The Marauder II was built at roughly 24 per year for instance, another the Warlord was built in battalion sized rates per year. Then theirs the 3025 era numbers which production being less than 20 for most units listed, with many heavy and assaults being no more than 10 per year
At best one could say a battlemech can be built at a rate of 1/10th it's mass in days (or 2 to 10 days per mech).

Tanks are more likely to be built at rates of 100 to 200 per year if not more per factory (the Bulldogs entry indicates that 1,000 per year, for a less than stellar seller, it was being built at 5ish locations, or about 200 per factory per year).

Savana Master, roughly 200 per year (both the Lyrans ans Fed Suns order 1,000 every 10 years, other factions also use it)
Karnov VTOL hundreds per year at one of the newest factories in the IS (as of ther 3050s)

Battle Armor easily 500 to 1,000 per year perhaps per line. (FM Lyran Alliance, indicated that 5ish months production produced a regiment being 750 to 1,000 troopers. The AFFS managed to operate at lest 50 battalions worth in a decade, not withstanding losses).

Aerospace fighters, are largely unknown, but likely no better than battlemechs.
The Zugvogel Omni support aircraft was stated be have an orginal order for 200 over 5 years from the LCAF, or 40 per year (not to bad for a 200 ton supersonic capable aircraft).
The Mechbuster had thousonds built in 25ish years, before being stoped (roughly 100 to 400 per year or so).

Dropships in the 3070s many of the newest combat ships where being built at the rate of about 2-4 per month.

Jumpships and Warships hand fulls per year, with warship production largely stoping by 3070 (largely being replaced by heavily armed dropships, which where cheaper and more mass producable).

[Infiltrationist]

David I don't know if you can change the forum name but get rid of pacific rim and replace it with something like Farscape.

Edited by Mr Psycho, 22 October 2014 - 02:23 AM.

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 21 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Still it is not nearly as low as Lily's 25000 number. By 3135 there are easily 100 million. Also by your calculations there would not be enough to fill the planetary garrisons which (by 3051) are all filled with Battlemechs and tanks. There would not be enough to split between the front lines and the other forces. I also find it curious that if mechs were in the low population you say how is it that every faction, every garrison, every merc unit, every pirate, etc has them? They HAVE to be in high circulation in order for there to be that many mechs.

Theirs less than 50,000 fighter jets on this world, yet almost every nation has some, even civilians have some, theirs probably under 100,000 tanks as well yet civilians have some, terrorist orgs have some, most nations have some...

Please support your statements from the following stand point, the five Major houses have on average 80 regiments, the Average clan (of at most 17) has about 27 Clusters, the average smaller house has about 20 regiments (about 6 of them, though this would include many of the much smaller ones). Theirs roughly 102 Regiments between 135ish Mercenary orgs worth noting (the ones listed in the Field manual and it's supplemental s). If theirs tens of millions of battlemechs as you put it running around at one time, then why is it that the houses do not have thousands of mech regiments each?

WoB had 54 Regiments (well it's Divisions are 2x regiments, but their combined arms) in it's line forces Comstar had around 50ish as well (really depends on the time frame as well).

Militia wise most worlds probably has a company or two of battlemechs (their are a number of worlds with zero garrisons of any kind -mostly because they didn't want any), though many are actually armed industrial mechs (often in the form of Security mechs), Major corporations do have some mech security assets, typically a lance of the type they built located at their factory... Planetary militias are Infantry and Tank heavy, notably more so than their house counter parts.

Clan "Solahma" formations are not in the hundreds per clan and I seriously doubt their numbers out number their active forces in any case, and their not entirely field with battlemechs, their mostly "unarmored" infantry with a few old mechs and tanks, second line formations are actually listed as part of their forces.

You may have a point that over the 700ish years of battlemech production millions if not tens of millions may have been built but at no point in time where their even half a million in operation, and that's being generous to the Star league era (the most likely time to see these kinds of numbers).

The Sizes of the house military's are at complete odds with your production numbers, even taking into account of militias and being generous their still not any where near your numbers.
What ever their actual production rate is it's only good enough to support these levels.

The numbers at best argue for some where between 70 and 120,000 battlemechs in the Houses, Mercs, and Comstar/WoB forces, the Clans 15 to 30,000, and Planetary militias could account between 20 to 60,000 (many of which are hand me downs form the houses, and perhaps an equalish number of "Militia"/ Security/Industrial mechs), other groups would be in relatively small numbers (i.e. Criminals & Corperations) perhaps 10,000; even these numbers is being a bit generous (at lest in some areas).

Now if you take the numbers to say replace these every 33 years (6100 per year) over 500 years you do get over 3 million.

Objectives AFFS mentions this (most of the others are similar)
All facility of military import (I.e. Factory's) rate some defenses, typically it's a lance of mechs per mech type they build, with a platoon of infantry per lance, though it's not unusual to see a small merc formation augmenting the facility's defenses. If Tank it's a company of tanks, Fighters it's a squadron, Component factory's have a single lance with an infantry company. Now I showed you the AFFS production lines in 3080. Now you could argue theirs a fair number of component facility's, but many worlds are not likely going to have much in the ways of these types of facility's, being largely limited to the major manufacturing worlds (still you might find a small component facility or two on most worlds I suppose if your feeling generous).

The Clans typical provide a star/lance for per factory line, augmented with infantry
Their garrisons (part solahma, part militia) is typically a mixed binary of mechs and tanks (star each), with one or more clusters of "unarmored" infantry (presumably per few hundred million people), larger garrisons have a binary each of mechs & vehicles, a star of ASFs and a Elemental Binary (effectively a small cluster), perhaps with the unarmored infantry clusters (again presumably per billion people).

In all cases Training facility's have 2D6 units of the appropriate types (Star/Lances/Squadrons/Platoons, mech/tank/fighter/infantry).

Even so your not likely going to add more than a few thousand mechs from these forces, much of which is already accounted for,,,

[Infiltrationist]

What about everyone who fight in the Solaris arena? That would add another couple thousand mechs.

Or maybe couple hundred

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 22 October 2014 - 06:43 AM, said:

As you said we have NO data on weather or not there were 1 million at any point as BT never says there for my calculation is completely valid. Also again you are not taking into account EVERY FACTION, MERC, PIRATE, GARRISON etc has at least 20 mechs and there are thousands of these.

I actually did take them into account, and sense when dose every faction have at lest 20? some world garrisons are stated has not even having one, many probably only have a company at best only the larger and more important worlds will have 20 or more battlemechs, Many Pirate forces are likely to be sub company, if they have battlemechs at all. How many criminal groups are out their any way that even have mechs? I doubt it's much more than a thousand.

The AFFS has 87ish regiments in it's Active forces (3062)
it has 510 worlds, lets say each has 2 companys (this ironically means theirs more mechs in defensive Garrisons than it's active forces ), lets also provide for 2 companys of armed industrials (lets call it 100 regiments worth of battlemechs)
Lets say it's actively using 20ish regiments of mercs (more than what the FM says)
As for factories, which is a difficult one to deal with all the sub component lines (rarely even mentioned), but lets say theirs 250 for mechs alone, that's another 8 regiments, lets double that for small mercs so theirs now 16 regiments, heck lets make this 20 regiments to provide for training schools and regional HQ guards.
Oh lets add another 20 regiments worth to account for VIPs and collections.

Im still not coming up with millions, let alone six digit numbers, for a single house.

Your still not explaining why hasn't the AFFS confiscated/conscripted many of these users, and quadrupled it's active battlemech force? Which would be easy for them to do if their is millions of mechs.

Your stating that their are millions of battlemechs in active use in the Fed suns, yet it's active army only uses under 20,000? Why is the civilian and planetary militias out numbering the active army by 2 orders of magnitude? That indicates their is something fundamentally wrong about your assumptions, it's very hard to justify a house army having 50 to 100 regiments when they have as you insist at the lest 10 times that amount wondering around their back yard.

Do you think Washington DC is going to be happy if the individuals states, citys and private concerns had more tanks by a wide margin than the regular army?

Quote

I nearly lolled right there. Um my statement is backed up because this is early 21st century and we don't even have a base on the moon let alone other planets. BT has over 1000 planets and over 300 factories. Not just the 2 factories producing the F-22s and not limited by old 90s technology.

Many of though factories are not building battlemechs, and many that do not likely to building much more than 50 mechs a year...
No the point sailed right over your head, the fact is we built 1200 F-15s but only have less than 300 in active service, means you can not say production rates = how many you will have at a given time down the road.

Also how do you know that a given line is always active? A line might produce for 5 or 10, but the next 20 years it might only produce spare parts and refurbishments/refits, also how do you know the production rates, many do not state any thing, thoughs that do, often indicate fairly low rates, and how do you know that the factories are more capable than modern ones? what evidence is their, out side of it's 1,000 years in our future (which is a bad way to do things, after all Star Trek in many areas is more advanced than B-tech but is only being 350ish years in our future...).

One thing to note is that B-tech is largely the future of the late 1980s (you could justify early 1990s as well) not the future of 2014.


I'll tell you what lets see you brake down the Fed Suns line by line, and justify with evidence from the fluff, that is not backed up by production rates.

Some areas to start off on, you can expand on this.
AFFS regulars & March militia
AFFS Local defense forces (I.e. factory defenses)
Planetary militias
Large Mercenary
Small Mercenary (company or less units, which are common enough)
Police forces (their are some, but not in large numbers, most are industrial mechs)
Civilian VIPs/ collections
Military contract Corporations
Criminals

Edit:
I take it you do not know about FASAnomics, basic it's well known that B-techs economys are fundamentally broken...

Also how long do you think battlemechs last on average?

Edited by Nebfer, 22 October 2014 - 02:54 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Marack Drock, on 21 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

Still it is not nearly as low as Lily's 25000 number. By 3135 there are easily 100 million. Also by your calculations there would not be enough to fill the planetary garrisons which (by 3051) are all filled with Battlemechs and tanks. There would not be enough to split between the front lines and the other forces. I also find it curious that if mechs were in the low population you say how is it that every faction, every garrison, every merc unit, every pirate, etc has them? They HAVE to be in high circulation in order for there to be that many mechs.

The first mech the Mackie came into existence in 2439. When the Star League left with much of its cache (although not that much as star league had something like 40 thousand mechs hidden according to how many they maneuvered on each planet after they revealed their true selves), and there are over 400 different models. Most Star League mechs left (like Battlemaster) were kept around using salvage parts and according to the 3050 Readout BattleMaster is still in HIGH circulation despite not being in production until Project Phoenix in 3038.

According to all the Readouts I have, even after the Star League left, Factories (that first produced the Mackie and such) were still operating and creating mechs. Which means I was being light. Because I only said 350 years. Not 620 years. Also you are forgetting that this is the future. I can guarantee we can make mechs rather quickly seeing as how we can produce 58ish jets in 2 months (according to your figures) and that Jet's factories were made in the 90s. 400 years later I can bet my left hand could produce 4 times that in mechs. Even if I said 200 mechs in one year by about 1 factory (as one factory only could handle a few designs each and there are 100s of designs by CW that are used) that would still be 124,000 mechs per factory from the time the first mechs were made to Operation Revival (3049). If there are about 300 factories that would be 37,200,000. That is not including ANY CLAN MECHS. This is Inner Sphere alone. If we include Clan mechs and just say each Clan has around 4 Galaxies and there are 17 Clans and we aren't counting any reserves or Solahma units only front lines, there would be an extra 24,480 mechs. If we include Solahma units and Second line with all the Clan factories and designs we have around- 279,480 Clan mechs to add to the Inner Sphere's 37.2 million mechs. Now we have the rogue factions and units making random mechs like Starslayer or FireAnt and it comes to an extra about 2 million. Making our grand total around 40 million mechs. Yes I was being VERY generous mainly because we have no idea but here I was saying there were only around 700 mechs per factory a year (very low IMO for something 400 years in the future), and then there were so many years of these things being made by a low standard it has be around 40 million at least.

The problem is NO ONE knows how many mechs a year are made and so I am basing my argument off 1000 years later an assuming technology has improved for factories since 1998.

I am not taking in consideration of weight class or each design individually but off the numbers you just posted there could easily be anywhere from 60 to 100 million mechs including all weight classes.

If we base it off of the future and their technology there at least 35 million mechs. At most 120 to 130 million. We don't know because its not like the books or manuals really go in depth on how fast mechs are made per year.

Also I did not include any Star League caches or the Star League mechs taken from the Inner Sphere. That puts my estimate at 40.5 million.

Lets not assume a mech factory does not have the limitations of a 90s factory.

where did I said something about that numbers? I never did, but yet yous asumptions are totally wild.

So I have currently 4 people in my livig room. We have 4 rooms, excluding batch and kitchen So we are 16 people here at that time estimated. Now I estimite this house exists for 5 generations meaning there are now 16*5 people in here. so wow, 80 people its getting quite crowdy here. And just because my Gf can breed a baby in 9 month does not mean she does that all the time.

*looks around* No wait not even those 16, still just 4.

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 October 2014 - 03:55 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Actually, we'll just make this easy: HERE is the link for the Faction Assignment & Rarity Tables document.

• "Being entirely fan-made, the document itself is not canonical. However, it can be considered to be a meta-source because it collates canonical production data, with educated guesswork filling in for some blanks."
  
• "The average distribution percentages are canon, as are the number of House regiments unless otherwise noted, but the varying regional distribution percentages are unofficial conjecture."

As of 3145, the AFFS has 31 House BattleMech regiments to call upon; at 108 to 180 'Mechs per regiment, the AFFS has at most 5580 individual BattleMechs in its service.
Likewise, the CCAF has at most 9240 individual BattleMechs (51.33 regiments), the DCMS has at most 7020 individual BattleMechs (39 regiments), and the LCAF has at most 6000 individual BattleMechs (33.33 regiments) as of 3145.
The FWLM as of 3145 has approximately 24.33 regimants and 6 clusters (where 1 cluster = 3-5 Binaries, Trinaries, Supernovas, and/or Supernova Trinaries; at the most, 5 Trinaries/Supernova-Trinaries represents 5 sets of 15 'Mechs, so one cluster includes at most 75 individual BattleMechs), representing a combined force of at most 4755 individual BattleMechs.

So, as of 3145, the combined might of the Great Houses represents a grand total of at most 32,595 active individual BattleMechs.
(And, recall: this would be just the 'Mechs - it wouldn't include infantry (both with & without Battle Armor), tanks & other armored vehicles, conventional combat aircraft, AeroSpace Fighters, planetary naval assets, and DropShips & JumpShips & Warships).

Running the numbers for the Great Houses as of 3050 (22.66 regiments for the CCAF, 99 regiments for the DCMS, 88.33 regiments for the AFFS, 56 regiments for the FWLM, and 104 regiments for the LCAF), the combined might of the Great Houses represents a grand total of at most 66,599 active individual BattleMechs.

Even if we triple the 3050 number (once to represent (admittedly, as a massive over-estimate) the assorted "minor" IS forces (e.g. Mercs, Com Guards, St. Ives, FRR, etc) & once to represent the Clans (average of ~8-10 galaxies per Clan, for 17 Clans)), we end up with at most 199,797 active individual 'Mechs for all of the factions combined.

That is to say: all of humanity in BattleTech, combined, has at most roughly 200,000 - one-fifth of one million - active individual BattleMechs (including OmniMechs) as of 3050.

[Strum Wealh]

Most 'Mech factories produce, at most, 12-24 or so individual 'Mechs per year... if that.

• "The Hunchback, known for its devastating firepower at close range, has a problem with heat buildup. The recovery of Star League technology made this an easy problem to solve. With barely a pause in production, Kali Yama Weapons Industries Inc. at Kalidasa started producing Hunchbacks with double heat sinks. The Free Worlds League, seeing the value of the new design, increased its orders to 20 per year." - HBK-5M, from TRO 3050
  
• "Nimakachi Fusion Products Ltd., the sole producer of the Spider, has recently announced plans to upgrade the 'Mech with recovered Star League-era technology. The Free Worlds League is the primary customer for Nimakachi's limited production of the Spider, but House Marik has indicated no intention of increasing the number of Spiders in its service. As it would be economic folly for the firm to retool its factories simply to produce sixteen or so 'Mechs per year, it is likely that one or more of the other Great Houses or mercenary units have placed orders with Nimakachi for the upgraded version." - SDR-7M, from TRO 3050
  
• "Victory Industries, a company that at one time had mass-produced the GRF-1DS for the DCMS (and still churned out a dozen per year on special orders) acquired the new design specifications and likewise devoted precious production capacity to this 'new' 'Mech." - GRF-6S, from TRO Project Phoenix
  
• "Both the Capellan Confederation and the Lyran Commonwealth use the Highlander in small numbers, as the production lines only churned out less than a dozen a year in either facility." - HGN-733, from TRO 3039
  
• "Many stories of the BattleMaster’s superior abilities have circulated, from it holding off entire lances single-handedly to a single BattleMaster taking out the defenders of important outposts during an invasion. Though Hollis’ main factories on Corey were destroyed during the First Succession War, production has continued. However, the special needs of such a massive chassis have limited the number produced to only a handful per year." - BLR-1G, from TRO 3039

Additionally, there are several chassis - including popular chassis like the Centurion and the Jenner - that are not in continuous production, that go out of production for extended periods but manage not to go extinct.

• Centurion: last original factory (on Ramen II) destroyed in 2845, production resumes (with the completion of a new factory on New Avalon) in 3012 (TRO 3039)
  
• Jenner: last original factory destroyed in 2848, production resumes in 3046 (TRO 3039)

So, Marack... your ideas on 'Mech production numbers (like much of the rest of what you've said in this thread, thus far) are simply wrong.

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 22 October 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

So, that means that we make more 20th century jets using technology 15 years old a year, than a factory 600 years in the future making devices that are almost accessible in the 21st century?

On average yep. The truth hurts doesn't it... Now to be fair their are some factory's that can build 100+ per year but they are the exception rather than the rule. Also the 600 years in our future is rather meaningless

The old 3025 Era House Book has the Free Worlds league producing a grand total of some 500 mechs a year from 17 factory complexes (the chart shows 486 mechs, and only 13 complexes oddly), now one could expect that production in the 3050s is higher... House Laios book indicates 400 mechs per year.
The House Davion Book dose not have a production list, but dose mention a few in the entry's of the factorys, the VLK-QA Valkyrie plant on New Avalon produces 130 per year, and is completely automated (in the view of 3025 it's also on the verge of braking down), the Independence Weaponry factory on Quentin produces 20 each of the Marauder and Victor mechs, and just 5 Atlases (no word on the JagerMech production however), it is mentioned to be operating at half capacity though. None of the other books mention any other production though.
To be fair the current writers admited that these books are not exactly error free...

Quote

Also even with Hunchback numbers there are still over 3 million mechs. Still way larger than the numbers provided and that is only in Hunchbacks alone. Because that design has been around since 2572. Your numbers do NOT add up. That is if 300 factories produced the mechs. But 1 factory by this timeline will have produced anywhere from 10 to 14 thousand Hunchbacks dude. AND THERE ARE 200+ DESIGNS MANUFACTURED BY THIS TIME. If we do only 20 mechs a year per factory we still have 3.72 million mechs. If we took away ten mechs do to destruction we still have 1.86 mechs in circulation if there are 300 factories in existence producing mechs (a perfectly viable number given that there are over 400 designs of mechs with each factory only handling 5 designs each on average).

Problem theirs not even 300 Factorys, at best theirs 150 to 200 or so, with about 400 to 600 lines
I just went through the 3080s era Objectives line (some how missed the Periphery book so I do not have that one), and I get 110 factory complexes (26 are Clan, with a number being limited in production capability's), add about 10 to 20 complexes lost due to WoBs Temper tantrum (not sure of the exact numbers but most houses lost a few), the Periphery is not as productive as the houses, so you probably can add another 20 or so from them.

Then their are the factorys of Terra, the newly formed RotS and the homeworld clans (the Clan Homeworlds are largely borked at this moment, many worlds being abandoned). but their not listed in these books, and many of them are well out of commission as of 3080 IIRC.

Also why are you assuming that every mech built is still existing? I seriously doubt that their are many battlemechs that where built during the Star league days exist in the 3050s.

Edit, like I said battletechs economy is simply irredeemably broken, you would have to rework B-tech universe from scratch to fix it, which is not all that viable, at lest in the opinions of the Current writers. as such using the what little production numbers we do have is simply a bad idea.

Edited by Nebfer, 22 October 2014 - 09:29 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

Quote

making devices that are almost accessible in the 21st century?

???

Last I checked room temperature, (much less high temperature) super-conductors and safe, stable, portable 300 MW reactors still qualified as "unobtanium".

[jarien13]

http://www.lockheedm...act-fusion.html

http://openmaterials...ctive-polymers/

http://www.utdallas....story-wide.html

[Strum Wealh]

Marack Drock, on 22 October 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

So, that means that we make more 20th century jets using technology 15 years old a year, than a factory 600 years in the future making devices that are almost accessible in the 21st century?

Also even with Hunchback numbers there are still over 3 million mechs. Still way larger than the numbers provided and that is only in Hunchbacks alone. Because that design has been around since 2572. Your numbers do NOT add up. That is if 300 factories produced the mechs. But 1 factory by this timeline will have produced anywhere from 10 to 14 thousand Hunchbacks dude. AND THERE ARE 200+ DESIGNS MANUFACTURED BY THIS TIME. If we do only 20 mechs a year per factory we still have 3.72 million mechs. If we took away ten mechs do to destruction we still have 1.86 mechs in circulation if there are 300 factories in existence producing mechs (a perfectly viable number given that there are over 400 designs of mechs with each factory only handling 5 designs each on average).

You're assuming that there is concurrence when there certainly is none - e.g. the Hunchbacks that were built in 2572 (just before the onset of the Reunification War) very likely did not survive into the Clan Invasion Era, much less into the Dark Age.

That is, your assertion that there should be 10000+ Hunchbacks - representing what the canonical numbers indicate to be nearly one-sixth of all of the operational 'Mechs in the combined armies of the Great Houses as of the beginning of the Clan Invasion - running around at the same time necessarily assumes that not a single Hunchback was destroyed-beyond-recovery or cannibalized to keep other 'Mechs going over the course of the Reunification War, the Amaris Civil War, any of the four Succession Wars, the War of 3039, or any of the countless raids and skirmishes launched during or between the major battles of those conflicts.
I trust that you can see how that cannot possibly, by any stretch, be the case?

The same goes for other designs, as well.
How many Jenners do you think were unsalvageably destroyed between the destruction of their production plant in 2848 (the middle of the Second Succession War) and the resumption of production 198 years later, in 3046 (on the cusp of the Clan Invasion)?
How many moderately-to-severely damaged Centurions do you think were cannibalized to keep their more-fit compatriots running for the 167-year period between when production of the design ceased (with the destruction of the Ramen II plant in 2845) and when production of the design resumed (with the opening of the New Avalon plant in 3012)?
How many other designs were lost for centuries (or even lost forever) due to their only factories - and, sometimes, the whole of the planet upon which said factories once stood - being reduced to radioactive ruin as a result of the Succession Wars (particularly the first two)?

Additionally, there aren't 300 concurrent BattleMech plants between the IS and Clans as of 3050.
Here is a list of factory complexes for all of both sides' war materials within the Inner Sphere; there are a total of 309 entries.
Many of those entries - such as Aerospace Plant CM-T72673, any of the three (3) Andurien AeroTech facilities, Arenthir Electronics, Babylon L-5 Yards, Barcella First Factory, Bithinian Ballistics, Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion, Dharma HyperSpace, Doering Electronics, either of the two (2) Edasich Motors facilities, the Exeter Organization, Federated-Boeing Interstellar, and more - do not produce BattleMechs.
The Clan Homeworlds - numbering ~43 as of 3067 - might add double their number (e.g. average two war material factories per planet, for a total of ~86 factory complexes), but not all of those will produce any BattleMechs (for example, both Barcella First Factory (one of the two manufacturing centers on Barcella) and Aeroyard Gargain (the only manufacturing center on Bearclaw)) produce no BattleMechs.
Moreover, a fair number of them - including but not limited to the three (3) WC sites on Arc-Royal - would not yet be (re)built as of 3050.

So again, Marack, the numbers that you're throwing out are mostly without foundation, AND many of those are based on logical errors on your part.

[mad kat]

Here's part of the Argument.

[Strum Wealh]

Marack Drock, on 23 October 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

But the problem with what you say is we CANNOT calculate the loss of mechs without cold hard numbers, and until we have those numbers, my equations are perfectly logical as this is all based on assumption anyways.

Also that list of factories goes on for 13 pages with 20 someodd factories listed per page which is 3250 factories. So either your numbers or wrong, or Canon is wrong but either way there are unaccounted for piles of mechs, aerospace, and tanks piled out in some secluded area of space right now. Even if .75 (three quarters) of them do not produce mechs there are still 650 that do according to that list therefor my numbers were EXTREMELY low.

You assume there is no concurrence when you have no proof there isn't. There is not enough data to make any clear assumption but ones based off future technology, an average amount of mechs produced based on the extremely few numbers we have, and how long mechs have been being made. Unless we have a number for every design in existence, and numbers for the amount of mechs lost we cannot make any accurate decision as to what the number of mechs are.

Not to mention with that many factories even if only 5 (FIVE!!!!!) mechs were produced each year there would still be 1.922 million mechs in existence based on the number of factories YOU just provided. There are over 3000 factories in that list dude and I am saying only 1/4 of those make mechs (reasonable right as no one has time to go count each Mech factory individually) and they only produce 5 mechs. 1/4 of 3250 factories is 600ish mechs. Even if I cut that down to 1/5 there are still 300+ factories producing mechs. Multiply that by 5 mechs and then by 620 years (the number of years mechs have been around until 3050) and your answer will be close to anything plausible based on the limited data we have. There are easily 1-5 million mechs in BT canon and if there aren't then there is an error in Canon because the math doesn't lie. 600 x 5 x 620= 1.86 million mechs. If we say 10 mechs are produced than the number is 3.7 million mechs.

What you just gave me in list of Factories would logically BOOST the numbers I gave you. Numbers don't lie. There are either close to a couple million, or Canon is wrong it is as simple as that. Your factory numbers support my argument.

Marack Drock, on 23 October 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Also that list of factories goes on for 13 pages with 20 someodd factories listed per page which is 3250 factories. So either your numbers or wrong, or Canon is wrong but either way there are unaccounted for piles of mechs, aerospace, and tanks piled out in some secluded area of space right now. Even if .75 (three quarters) of them do not produce mechs there are still 650 that do according to that list therefor my numbers were EXTREMELY low.

What you just gave me in list of Factories would logically BOOST the numbers I gave you. Numbers don't lie. There are either close to a couple million, or Canon is wrong it is as simple as that. Your factory numbers support my argument.

Sigh...

The list I provided has 25 individual factories per page (with individual listings for each factory owned by the same company - hence, why there are two listings for Aldis Industries, three listings for Andurien AeroTech, etc) for 12 pages, plus 9 individual factories on the 13th page.

25*12=300
300+9=309

Explain, in detail, how you're getting 3250 factories out of that list.

[Nebfer]

Marack Drock, on 23 October 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

25 times 13

Edit woops you right I made a mistake but even still. We have no coherent numbers. Therefore any opinion is just that. opinion. They have no backing until lore gives us numbers.

Anyways I am done with this argument and admit defeat cause I am tired of debating something that cannot be proven wrong or right.

True that we do not have a precise number to say how many mechs are built in a given year, nor do we have a precise estimate of just how many mechs their are in a given year. However your making up numbers, using bad math to justify them, we however are using canon numbers and going from their (you do know what canon is right?).

We are basing our numbers off what the source books tells us they have. YOU are assuming that theirs X number of factory's and then assuming a set production rate (that is uninterrupted) and then assuming that not one has been lost for what ever reason over 5 century's. Based on that Whos opinion would you trust to be more accurate?

The idea of that each house is running around with a million battlemechs simply can not be correct at any level given what numbers we do know, we know the Regimental strengths of all the houses at various points. It's kinda of hard to justify these levels if we went by your maths. According to you why would a house run around with a listed strength of 90 regiments if they had 18+ regiments per world they own?

If your going to use a production rate why don't you base it off the canonical Strength numbers, inflated a bit to account for various unlisted small units, rather than using a number of assumptions and then saying that the canon strength numbers are wrong.

Canon Strengths of various B-tech factions of the late 3050s and Early 3060s (for the most part).
Note a Regiment has between 108 and 144 mechs, it can be a bit more (up to 220) but that is exceedingly rare, 108 to 132 is far more typical. A Clan Cluster typically will have around 45 Mechs, though it can be a low as 20 to as many as 75, typical is around 30 to 45 (the extremes are rare).

DCMS 3059 has 76 regiments
AFFS 3062 has 87 regiments
LCAF 3062 has 78 regiments
FWL 3059 has 74 regiments
CCAF 3063 has 44 regiments
Comstar 3062 50 divisions (Roughly a regiment of mechs)
WoB 3062 10 divisions (their are quite a few more being built in secret)
FRR 3062 4 regiments
SLDF 3062 5 regiments

Minor houses
TDF 3058 18 regiments
MAF 3058 23 regiments
AMC 3058 4 regiments
MHAF 3058 4 regiments
CFM 3058 1 regiment
Other minor factions, roughly 3 regiments (this actually includes some of the notable pirate bands)

Mercenary (3067) adds Roughly 110 regiments

As for the Clans
Clan Nova Cat 3062 35 Clusters (Abjured from clan space, Dead by ~3145)
Clan Hells Horses 3059 37 Clusters (Abjured from clan space by ~3075)
Clan Jade Turkey 3059 49 Clusters (Abjured from clan space by ~3075)
Clan Wolf 3059 24 Clusters (Abjured from clan space by ~3075)
Clan Star Adder 3059 52 Clusters
Clan Ice Hellion 3059 21 Clusters (Dead by ~3080)
Clan Fire Mandrel 3059 30 Clusters (Dead by ~3080)
Clan Blood Spirit 3059 27 Clusters (destroyed in ~3085)
Clan Cloud Cobra 3061 22 Clusters
Clan Coyote 3061 35 Clusters
Clan Diamond Shark 3061 33 Clusters (Abjured from clan space by ~3075)
Clan Ghost Bear 3061 58 Clusters (Abjured from clan space by ~3075)
Clan Goliath Scorpion 3061 24 Clusters (Abjured from clan space, absorbed Nueva Castile and becomes the periphery nation Escorpión Imperio)
Clan Snow Raven 3061 26 Clusters (Abjured from clan space by ~3075)
Clan Steel Viper 3061 45 Clusters (Dead by ~3080)
Clan Wolf in Exile 3061 11 Clusters (need I say more)

We have around 3060 roughly 600 Regiments in the inner sphere and periphery, and some 530 Clan Clusters (in total thats roughly 90,000), we could triple this to account all the other minor elements not listed (planetary militias, private ownership, smaller mercs, House Garrisons of vital installations, ect) and still only have 250,000 to 300,000 mechs, With these numbers theirs upwards of 7 companys of battlemechs for each world, not including the ones listed with the armed forces. and I seriously doubt theirs that many

Edited by Nebfer, 23 October 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[auniqueid]

what was the consensus on this?
I see all this discussion on number of mechs produced, but we all agree that either SW (empire or rebellion) or ST (federation) would wipe out MW, right?