15 replies to this topic

[Abagnatius]

Young MechWarriors, gather round!

There is much fuss about ghost heat amongst the veteran MechWarriors. All in all, they (we) seem to be undecided if it is good or not.
In short: It is here, so we need to live with it.

Ghost heat seems to appear if you try to boat - if you try to run your BattleMech with many weapons of the same kind and size as in 3 or 4 AC/2 and if you try to chainfire them. Chainfire means that you try to fire the weapons one after the other in short succession, to keep the enemy under continuous fire. It seems that if you shoot all your AC/2 together, in bursts with a pause between the shots, ghost heat does not appear.

Here is what you can do to avoid having to fuss with that: Don't boat. In my experience it is better for not-so-pro MechWarriors (like myself) to have a variety of weapons to choose from: Lasers (no fuss with ammo), some projectile weapons for hard hits and a couple of Long-Range Missiles to soften the target before engaging them close-up. Short-Range Missiles are a wonderful close combat weapon but basically only if you facehug your target. (facehug = veeeeery close together)

Well, that was it, my humble advice to you youngsters. Now go and turn anything with a red HUD-mark into a pile of smoldering rubble!

[Dalziel Hasek Davion]

If you want the detail behind ghost heat - check this article/post http://mwomercs.com/...cale-the-maths/

Best of luck.

[scJazz]

You will also need this handy dandy Table... courtesy Smurfy, where all good things reside.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eapon_heatscale

[Redshift2k5]

Yeah, the smurfy table is highly reccomended

[Koniving]

Some additional info:

Remember, don't use macros on AC/2s -- you really just spread the damage for that awesome 'more dakka' sound and you're punished for spreading your damage much more so than conserving your ammunition versus alpha striking.

Spoiler

When first applied but not told to us (and even Garth denied its existence), it applied the penalty only on the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th shots and went back to normal.

Later, when announced as a bug, it applied the penalty non-stop on the 4th shot and kept getting worse.

Finally, it was announced as a penalty [and a bug], that targets you if you fire 4 AC/2s at once but hits you 'harder than intended' for chain firing. So they reduced the firing speed on AC/2s.. and it was fixed for two days. After two days, it got worse than it ever has been before. So long story short, you can't macro fire AC/2s to get a single shot every 0.25 seconds without essentially trying to kill yourself. So, no intimidation factor which is the one of the few things that made AC/2s viable as a suppression weapon, which gave you an actual role to play. With no suppression, enemies charge you without a care in the world and kill you with incredible ease because they have no reason to fear 3 AC/2s.

Although, rapidly chain firing LRM launchers will cause them to have a much more focused missile spread, doing far more damage to the center torso per missile that gets through the enemy AMS than alpha striking would -- so the heat penalty makes you use a far deadlier method of firing LRMs.

"Linked" heat penalty weapons are punished if you mix and match them and fire them at the same time. The punishment hits you with the punishment appropriate for the highest/largest weapon of the group. So mixing large lasers is not a good idea.

To be on the safe side, do not put any LRMs in narc launchers -- you'll set off a heat penalty for any 2 LRMs you fire while the LRM in the single tube narc slot is still firing -- even if you started that launcher's firing 6 seconds before.

The same could be said for the 'beam time' of any lasers. Even if you wait that half a second, heat penalties appear to attack you if you fire during the beam time (examples: Fire 6 ML, then 3 ML 0.8 seconds after firing the 6 ML. Beam's still going. Penalty hits anyway.)

Oh, and yes the system isn't quite consistent. 4 super-spreading SRM-2s (8 missiles, 16 damage) is apparently far deadlier than 4 Streak SRM-2s (which do more damage 10 missiles, 20 damage -- but the spread is random), 3 SRM-4s (12 missiles, 24 damage) and 3 SRM-6s (18 missiles, 36 damage, wide net). But, I suppose the good news is you can tie in 3 SRM-6s and 3 SRM-2s for no penalty what-so-ever. (Which is more accurate than 6 SRM-6s).

The limit for Medium Lasers is 6. But there's no limit on Medium Pulse Lasers. Throw on 9 of them and be far deadlier than 9 ML could ever be. Or mix and match for even better heat efficiency.

Random fun for the dreamers:

Spoiler

Name Withheld, on 19 September 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

You do realize that if we cut the threshold now we would also need to change dissipation rates, remove ghost heat, and have to figure out a different way to balance the boats in game?

Oh one can dream. Honestly with a threshold of 30 that's 2 ER PPCs or 3 PPCs and shutdown. All boats would shut down faster, and yet we'd still have some resemblance of role warfare as the PPC boats would need an escort. The LRM boats would need an escort (not to mention they can't stream fire the LRMs for constant spam). The 6 SRM 6 boats might make a come back, but they can alpha strike once and hit 80% heat (regardless of how many heatsinks they have), and shutdown if they do a second alpha immediately when it's available (and be unable to start up right away without practically killing themselves). Oh sure, we'd see a return of the dual AC/20 Jager. But that meant some fool was charging at you at 70 or so kph, out in the open, for your entire team to focus on.

[BlackDeathLegion]

Ghost Heat suggestion!!!

If your using an Inner sphere mech and inner sphere tech. REMOVE GHOST HEAT from weapons fire!

If your using a Clan mech and clan tech. REMOVE GHOST HEAT from weapons fire!



If your using a Inner sphere mech, with mixed tech IS+Clan, then add GHOST HEAT.
(same for clan mechs with mixed IS/Clan tech) . . .

this would make sense! When mixing clan/inner sphere tech, think of it as a "Incompatibility Issue".
Thus, You wont make Clan Tech OVERPOWERED being used on a Inner sphere mech. (ie: Boating 7 Clan ER medium lasers on a Battlemaster!

If you choose to use Clan tech on inner sphere, yea you get the range, less weight,crit benefit...but at a PENALTY!!!

THINK ABOUT THIS . . ..

[Alaskan Nobody]

BlackDeathLegion, on 18 June 2014 - 05:58 PM, said:

THINK ABOUT THIS . . ..

1) Wrong subforum
2) Necro is bad, okay?

[WonderSparks]

Haha Not to mention there is no mix-tech anyways.
But seriously, Ghost Heat is here to stay, we've just got to live with it.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

But seriously ghost heat is bullshit. Devs know it, that's why they are thinking of having individual mech "quirks". So the awesome would be able to carry 3 ppcs and alpha without heat penalty, but if a stalker did then ghost heat would **** it. Same for masakari. Possibly same thing with ac2s on jager. I think it is a B S thing to implement in the first place. Why penalize people for boating? The hunch 4p is an example of a mech that was built to boat. It makes a mech very effective (usually in one area and lacking in others). Like Koniving mentioned in his post, boating ac2s is only useful for suppressing enemies, if they actually charge you you cannot kill them effectively. It was similar with ppc boats (they were OP because of the way overheating worked back then) but get close and they are too hot to hold sustained fire and have a min range. AC20 boats were kinda BS but still had no use at range and could be crushed by experienced players with good aim. I see no reason for people to be penalized for using something that is and should be simply more effective. There are nerfs that i believe should be in place though, like the 2 gauss charge nerf. So we don't have quad gauss daishis alphastriking 24/7 killing assaults in 3 salvos with zero heat. The devs most likely regret adding ghost heat but can't exactly take it out without looking like speds.

EDIT: This is coming from a player who runs an srm stalker and misses his 4 ppc stalker. I also ran 4,5, and 6 ac2 jagers. I never ran dual ac20 but i do run dual gauss. Boaters gonna boat ya dig?

EDIT 2: Like i said i realise 4 ppc stalkers were OP doesnt mean i dont miss the fun of them. I believe with the new overheat system they would be much better controlled and i also would be fine with raising ppc heat again to stop them from constantly alphastriking. But i DO NOT believe that you should be nearly incapable of running a build because it was too effective. If a mech can carry it i think you sould be able to run or try to run it. Thats why i experiment with things like my 4ac2, 2 uac5 jager, which btw is unusable because of ghost heat. That mofo had some dps (lots more dps and ammo than it had armor lol)

Edited by POOTYTANGASAUR, 20 June 2014 - 04:20 PM.

[General Murphy]

I say allow heat to be more efficient, seems a bit broken in some circumstances.

[xMintaka]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 18 June 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

But seriously ghost heat is bullshit. Devs know it, that's why they are thinking of having individual mech "quirks". So the awesome would be able to carry 3 ppcs and alpha without heat penalty, but if a stalker did then ghost heat would **** it. Same for masakari. Possibly same thing with ac2s on jager. I think it is a B S thing to implement in the first place. Why penalize people for boating? The hunch 4p is an example of a mech that was built to boat. It makes a mech very effective (usually in one area and lacking in others). Like Koniving mentioned in his post, boating ac2s is only useful for suppressing enemies, if they actually charge you you cannot kill them effectively. It was similar with ppc boats (they were OP because of the way overheating worked back then) but get close and they are too hot to hold sustained fire and have a min range. AC20 boats were kinda BS but still had no use at range and could be crushed by experienced players with good aim. I see no reason for people to be penalized for using something that is and should be simply more effective. There are nerfs that i believe should be in place though, like the 2 gauss charge nerf. So we don't have quad gauss daishis alphastriking 24/7 killing assaults in 3 salvos with zero heat. The devs most likely regret adding ghost heat but can't exactly take it out without looking like speds.

EDIT: This is coming from a player who runs an srm stalker and misses his 4 ppc stalker. I also ran 4,5, and 6 ac2 jagers. I never ran dual ac20 but i do run dual gauss. Boaters gonna boat ya dig?

You say ghost heat is bovine excrement, and in the same post say you miss your four PPC Stalker.

You realise those Stalkers are the reason we have ghost heat?

[Koniving]

Lunatech, on 19 June 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

You say ghost heat is bovine excrement, and in the same post say you miss your four PPC Stalker.

You realise those Stalkers are the reason we have ghost heat?

While true... we'd have never needed it with a 30 threshold.

40 heat against 30 threshold fired at once.
Fire.
133.33% heat! Shutdown! Damage!
Never doing that again, are ya?

Of course nothing says you couldn't squeeze it in over 10 seconds as intended by TT.
15 true DHS = 30 / 10 = 3.0/sec cooling.
0 seconds, fire 1 PPC. + 10 heat = 33.33% threshold!
1 second. Cool 3. Aim. 7 heat. (23.33% threshold).
2 seconds. Cool 3. Aim. 4 heat. (13.33% threshold).
3 seconds. Cool 3. 1 heat. Fire 2 PPCs! +20 heat! (this alone would be 66.67% thresold). Total 21 heat = 70% threshold!
4 seconds. Cool 3. 18 heat. 60% threshold.
5 seconds. Cool 3. 15 heat. 50% threshold. Fire 1 PPC! + 10 heat! (15 + 10 = 25) = 83.33% threshold!
6 seconds. Cool 3. 22 heat. 73.33% threshold.
7 seconds. Cool 3. 19 heat. 63.33% threshold.
8 seconds. Cool 3. 16 heat. 53.33% threshold. Fire 1 PPC! +10 heat! (16 + 10 = 26) = 86.67% threshold!
9 seconds. Cool 3. 23 heat. 76.67% threshold.
10 seconds. Cool 3. 20 heat. 66.67% threshold.

There we go. Ten seconds, threw out 5 PPCs with the highest pinpoint damage being 20, didn't need ghost heat and honestly don't need to boat 4 PPCs to do it, so I could have better backup weapons. Manage to do it all without shutting down even once in a severely limiting 30 threshold that would prevent most alpha strikes from being possible and even cause rapid firing Autocannon-boating rigs to shutdown boatloads earlier.

For example the twin AC/5 twin AC/2 rig here would shut down in about 9 seconds.

Each jump of "1" heat would be 3.33% instead of what is factually less than 1.2% per shot.
The cooling rate would be identical. 10 DHS with a 250 engine in MWO is true 2.0 + 2.0 threshold increases (so effectively quad heatsinks).

[TheCaptainJZ]

Boating would also not have been as big a deal if team communication was easy and people actually coordinated. Still an issue, but mitigated a little.

[TheSilken]

I guess that this means the Supernova is ****** right from the start right?

[Telmasa]

TheSilkenPimp, on 26 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

I guess that this means the Supernova is ****** right from the start right?

Depends. It behaved the same way on Tabletop, where if you actually tried to use all 12 ERML, it would likely cook its own pilot from all the heat.

The best way to use it is one arm at a time, and at that, making full use of the jump-jets to maneuver either to an enemy's backside or one that's got a worn-down limb. Even if it's not capable of alpha-striking with all its weapons and surviving the heat, it's still built around hit-and-run, burst-damage gameplay, definitely not strung-out.

[Missed Target]

Actually the Nova/Blackhawk 12 ER Med in Prime config.

SilkenPimp is refering to the Supernova, a 90 ton Clan second line mech. 6 ER Large Lasers.

Chain fire is your friend, or fire one arm at a time and deal with little ghost heat. Same principle on both mechs actually.

What I would prefer to ghost heat is reduced damage. Fire 12 ER mediums, fine, they do half damage cause your reactor can't produce that much power at one time. Missles and Autocannons are harder to balance that way though. (power needed to feed ammo, who knows)

Right now I think quirks are a bigger problem than Ghost Heat.

Take a Dragon 1N, 60 tons, 2 AC5. (16 tons ac) get 50% boost to AC5 Cool down

Can outshoot a Jagermech 6S 65 tons, 2 ac5 2ac2 (28 tons ac) gets only 15% on AC/2 and 7.5% on AC/5

For less weapon weight!!!

Edited by Missed Target, 03 December 2014 - 12:12 PM.