22 replies to this topic

[Hatachi]

One thing that has always felt "off" to me in the game is how most truly viable builds carry a ridiculous amount of ammo by Battletech standards. This simply comes down to the fact that a good majority of ballistic and missile based mechs are practically out of the battle when ammo is gone.

My proposed idea is that for every 10 seconds you are shut down inside your own base capture area you would regain one ton of ammo per weapon type. If you have multiple types of ammo for a single weapon type, such as AC/10s and 5s on the same mech, the largest caliber refills first. The exact logistics of the refill rate and/or the order refills take up is an idea of contention to me as well, and I think it would take play testing to find the right balance.

With this system I think you would see mechs able to carry a moderate amount of ammo and "retire" from the battle for 1-3 minutes to refill and return to the fight. It would still be a disadvantage to run extremely light on ammo, but it wouldn't mean you might as well be out of the fight all together.

This idea was the product of some TeamSpeak brainstorming , and I'll admit is in a rough state. I do think the general idea has merit though. So, please be gentle with the flaming.

[Wintersdark]

Truly viable builds carry little ammo, because skilled play means you don't need much. Generally speaking, more than two tons per gun are wasted: Either you're doing useless damage, or missing too much. Some guns (AC20, etc) benefit from 3 Just In Case; but realistically speaking if you're burning more than that in a match you're doing it wrong.

Ballistics are in a good place right now vs. energy weapons. Arguably, they're better overall - so they don't need to be further improved. That's the tradeoff you make for up front damage at low heat: Ammo limitations.

[Cycleboy]

This would just promote using low heat, high-dakka builds. Then 2 or 3 shoot their wads, return to base to refill/guard, rinse and repeat. What do energy builds get then??? You shoot everything without taking care of your shots and you overheat and die. No thanks.

Edited by Cycleboy, 27 September 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[no one]

Hatachi, on 27 September 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

One thing that has always felt "off" to me in the game is how most truly viable builds carry a ridiculous amount of ammo by Battletech standards.
*snip*
. . . for every 10 seconds you are shut down inside your own base capture area you would regain one ton of ammo per weapon type.

You know, this really isn't all that bad an idea. Heavy ballistic and missile carriers would still want to keep a high ammo tonnage so they don't have to keep trucking it to base. On the other hand, fast lights would be able to mount LRMs and SRMs without devoting half of their pay-load weight to ammo. If I was going to make a change I'd say limit each side to one or two (destructible) re-arming bays, change the timing to include a 20 to 30 second minimum cycle time, and prevent start-up while re-arming. That way more ammo bins mean less time in the bay, there is inherent risk in re-arming, and mixed load-outs and energy weapons still have their weight / durability advantage. Potentially more advantage then they have now, if people start trying to rely on re-arming bays by equipping less ammo. (I imagine there would be some three stooges syndrome at the rearming bays.)

You could even set it so that you can only reload ammo bins in sections with related weapons mounted, and disallow damaged bins form being reloaded.

Edited by no one, 10 March 2014 - 01:12 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

Hatachi, on 27 September 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

With this system I think you would see mechs able to carry a moderate amount of ammo and "retire" from the battle for 1-3 minutes to refill and return to the fight.

With TTK as low as it is, the fight would usually be over by the time the mech returned, especially on larger maps.

[Stingray Productions]

i'd just wait for MFB's. I'm sure something like that will be present in Community Warfare.

[LauLiao]

Balistics and missiles can have free ammo if energy weapons get a free coolant flush.

[Corvus Antaka]

guns already have way to much ammo.

[Kalimaster]

I like the idea of being able to recover some ammunition. However, if I may modify your idea.

One some future maps, have ammo dumps like those found on the Game Mechcommander 2, that is to say, a recognizable structure. The structure would hold one to four tons of ammo. This would be locked into the game. The dump may have machine gun ammo and a couple of tons of SRM's, perhaps even a ton of AC/10. But you would not know it at the time until your Mech is close enough to scan the interior, say 20-50 meters. Then if you stand by the Dump, ammo will be removed from the bin to said Mech, say 1 shot per second, or even 2 shots per second. The longer you stay, the more your ammo is refilled. However if your Mech is not equipped to take said ammo, you will not get restocked. This allows for some ammo to be on the battlefield, without having a Mech just run up to a base, grab, and keep shooting. Both they type as well as the amount is limited, making such finds valuable when they appear, not to mention the game makers might make said building distructable so that you can also deny such finds from the opponents. This means you will have to protect these stashes as well, causing players to think about tactics a little more than just dropping the cross hairs over someone.

[Spleenslitta]

Everybody should read everything in this thread. It might turn your opinion around.

When i read the start of this thread i was strictly against the idea but then the OP made me think carefully.
He does have a decent point I thought to myself.

Then Winterdark and Cycleboy made some comments that put some big holes in the OP's idea.

Then No one made this comment that was a reaaaaally good idea.

no one, on 10 March 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

You know, this really isn't all that bad an idea. Heavy ballistic and missile carriers would still want to keep a high ammo tonnage so they don't have to keep trucking it to base. On the other hand, fast lights would be able to mount LRMs and SRMs without devoting half of their pay-load weight to ammo. If I was going to make a change I'd say limit each side to one or two (destructible) re-arming bays, change the timing to include a 20 to 30 second minimum cycle time, and prevent start-up while re-arming. That way more ammo bins mean less time in the bay, there is inherent risk in re-arming, and mixed load-outs and energy weapons still have their weight / durability advantage. Potentially more advantage then they have now, if people start trying to rely on re-arming bays by equipping less ammo. (I imagine there would be some three stooges syndrome at the rearming bays.)

You could even set it so that you can only reload ammo bins in sections with related weapons mounted, and disallow damaged bins form being reloaded.

And Lauliao expanded on that.

LauLiao, on 10 March 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

Balistics and missiles can have free ammo if energy weapons get a free coolant flush.

Guys. Read the posts of the other players and think carefully. Don't just put up a post without thinking or reading the arguments of others.
Make constructive comments.


Now on to my idea. Expanding on No one and LauLiao's ideas.
It should be very dangerous to fill your ammunition bins. 10 seconds for the ground crew to start the reload and 10 seconds for every ton of ammunition you load.
This means a minimum of 20 seconds where you are shut down while filling your ammunition bins.

A player filling up 4 tons of ammunition has to remain shut down for 50 seconds. That's dangerous.
It will encourage builds with much less ammunition.

Furthermore there is a limit to how much ammunition you can reload. For example.
You have 5 tons of ammunition that is only yours and there is a pool of ammunition meant for the entire team after that.
How much is the teams shared ammunition? I don't know....a thing to be balanced over time by the dev's i guess.

And these ammunition storage facilities needs a powersource. How about this-
Many have talked about how the turrets are overpowered and need to be hooked up to powergenerator.
1 powergenerator per 2 turrets.
2 powergenerators needs to be operational in order to keep the ammo storage facility up and running.

[Dramborleg]

a

Edited by Dramborleg, 11 March 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

Kalimaster, on 11 March 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

I like the idea of being able to recover some ammunition. However, if I may modify your idea.

One some future maps, have ammo dumps like those found on the Game Mechcommander 2, that is to say, a recognizable structure. The structure would hold one to four tons of ammo. This would be locked into the game. The dump may have machine gun ammo and a couple of tons of SRM's, perhaps even a ton of AC/10. But you would not know it at the time until your Mech is close enough to scan the interior, say 20-50 meters. Then if you stand by the Dump, ammo will be removed from the bin to said Mech, say 1 shot per second, or even 2 shots per second. The longer you stay, the more your ammo is refilled. However if your Mech is not equipped to take said ammo, you will not get restocked. This allows for some ammo to be on the battlefield, without having a Mech just run up to a base, grab, and keep shooting. Both they type as well as the amount is limited, making such finds valuable when they appear, not to mention the game makers might make said building distructable so that you can also deny such finds from the opponents. This means you will have to protect these stashes as well, causing players to think about tactics a little more than just dropping the cross hairs over someone.

I don't know quite what to think of this idea. It would take wiser heads than mine. But i just want to thank you for putting up a post in which you put a lot of thought.
Thank you Kalimaster.

[Fut]

Please no.
The last thing this game needs is magical repairs, magical rearming of ammo, or respawns.

If you have a build that runs out of ammo and is effectively removed from the match, you're not building your Mechs properly.

[Spleenslitta]

Fut, on 11 March 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Please no.
The last thing this game needs is magical repairs, magical rearming of ammo, or respawns.

If you have a build that runs out of ammo and is effectively removed from the match, you're not building your Mechs properly.

Please read the posts of others in this thread. They really make good points. Please just try it.
I was against it too but got totally turned around by posts #4 and #7 alone.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 11 March 2014 - 10:47 AM.

[Xarian]

Why do you assume that people aren't reading the posts? I have read all the posts, and I disagree with them completely. Rearming ballistics is a bad idea; it takes away one of their few limiting factors and would make energy weapons even more obsolete.

[Spleenslitta]

Xarian, on 11 March 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Why do you assume that people aren't reading the posts? I have read all the posts, and I disagree with them completely. Rearming ballistics is a bad idea; it takes away one of their few limiting factors and would make energy weapons even more obsolete.

LauLiao made a comment about energy weapons getting a free coolant flush.

No one put up some good ways to make ammo reloading very risky. I expanded on their idea in post #10.
Getting a reload from the ammo depot could be very risky indeed when you're shut down for so long.

As for people not reading posts. Well when they say stuff like this....

Stingray1234, on 10 March 2014 - 01:23 PM, said:

i'd just wait for MFB's. I'm sure something like that will be present in Community Warfare.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 March 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

guns already have way to much ammo.

AC20 have 7 shots per ton of ammo. I never use it and i think that is a fair amount.
Ammo per ton is fair in MWO. It's just that the builds have become so non canonical....am i part of the canon police?
No way. I once made a suggestion about player made mechs contests. Way off topic but there you have it.

Fut, on 11 March 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Please no.
The last thing this game needs is magical repairs, magical rearming of ammo, or respawns.

If you have a build that runs out of ammo and is effectively removed from the match, you're not building your Mechs properly.

....you can't exactly say they make constructive comments or believe they have read everyones posts.
Not looking to start some kinda war here. Just saying what i see in so many threads.

Many people read OP comment in a thread and take their conclusions from that alone.
Pardon me if what i said offended you. I didn't mean to do that. Just being honest.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 11 March 2014 - 12:24 PM.

[no one]

Fut, on 11 March 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Please no.
The last thing this game needs is magical repairs, magical rearming of ammo, or respawns.

If you have a build that runs out of ammo and is effectively removed from the match, you're not building your Mechs properly.

Oh absolutely, no repairs in battle. Realistically speaking those would take way too long. Respawns? Curse you dark magician! Ammo? Yes, no magic ammo pickups, and make not taking enough ammo bite you in the ass.

Problem is, right now people can run XL engines and endo steel on everything and will always take just enough ammo for their weapons to last out a match. Ammo isn't really that limiting factor on 'Mechs heavy enough to carry the ammo and, as Hatachi pointed out, Mechs are carrying a preposterous amount of ammo compared to stock load-outs. What I suggested was something that would make the placement of your ammo bins matter, and encourage people to pack less ammo so that running out of ammo in the middle of a fight is something they might actually do. At which point they either have to fall back on your energy weapons, or run back to base and hope the enemy hasn't blown up their re-arming bay in the interim.

Xarian, on 11 March 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I have read all the posts, and I disagree with them completely. Rearming ballistics is a bad idea; it takes away one of their few limiting factors and would make energy weapons even more obsolete.

That's fair, and I absolutely understand where you're coming from. Full disclosure, I also advocate reworking the heat system -
http://mwomercs.com/...cs/page__st__40
as well as weapons
http://mwomercs.com/...balance-tweaks/
and I think ballistics should have their ranges cut a bit.

Point is, balance can't happen in a vacuum. It takes looking at, and potentially changing lot of things at once. The problem is, we can only really throw guesses and suggestions into the dark and balancing around the game as it is. If I start suggesting changes to balance ballistics based around instant convergence and then PGI adds in convergence delays those suggestions go out the window. We can argue for and against an idea, but what's most important is saying what the basis of that argument is, because there's no way to know if the foundation of that argument will continue to hold up in the future.

If you want to test how an idea works in the game as it stands not, you can always do the mental legwork, though. For instance; take a 'Mech on which you use ammo, then decide how much ammo you would use on it if you could run back to base and reload. Now try doing that. After you've used that ammo, stop firing, then run to base, shut down and stay shut down for 20+tonnage*10 seconds or so. Is it worth the extra tonnage you would have saved on ammo? What would you use the extra tonnage for?

Kalimaster, on 11 March 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

One some future maps, have ammo dumps like those found on the Game Mechcommander 2, that is to say, a recognizable structure. The structure would hold one to four tons of ammo. This would be locked into the game. The dump may have machine gun ammo and a couple of tons of SRM's, perhaps even a ton of AC/10. But you would not know it at the time until your Mech is close enough to scan the interior, say 20-50 meters. Then if you stand by the Dump, ammo will be removed from the bin to said Mech, say 1 shot per second, or even 2 shots per second. The longer you stay, the more your ammo is refilled.

Keep in mind the repair-rearm bay in 'Mech commander was a separate structure than the ammo bins, and there is a reason for this. 'Mechs can't just grab a fistful of AC/20 shells and toss 'em down the hatch to reload, they need a facility capable of rearming them. That would be akin to trying to refuel your car by parking it on a tanker truck. You should have to pull up to the gassing station, put in the pump, and wait for your tank to fill.

That said, limiting the total amount of each type of ammo your team has available is a good idea. You could even have ammo bins on base that represent your initial stores of ammo, but you would still need to use the rearming bay. Still, if an enemy can roll up and destroy your LRM ammo dump in a fifth the time it takes them to pulverize your repair bay, and that deprives your team of LRM reloads for the rest of the match, then that would be fine. If some poor sucker's standing next to the ammo dump when it goes, so much the better.

Edited by no one, 11 March 2014 - 12:49 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

What No One said in the post above would make the game even more realistic if that word could be applied to a sci fi game.
LRM Catapult loading up his huge ammunition bins? An enemy with an ER PPC decides to smack 2 flies with one big whammy and shots the LRM ammo dump.

Blows up the LRM ammo and the Catapult to kingdom come. No one can say that ammo dependent weapons become allpowerfull then.
All it takes is a single enemy infiltrating your base to ruin the entire teams ammo dump.
This will make tactics far more important in MWO than it is currently.

A lot of people will say that this will make ammunition dependent players afraid to advance. I don't think so.


Besides. Right now a light mech has no reason whatsoever to mount an LRM launcher. Why?

Because a launcher.sufficiently powerfull would take up most of his weapons payload and that's without ammo.
Add enough ammunition to last through the match and the light mech won't have enough available weight to fit an engine capable of keeping the fragile light mech alive.
But with reloads you can actually use a single LRM 5/10 on a light and have enough ammo to make it worth it.

A light would just have to be very selective of his targets and range to avoid AMS shooting down his LRM's.
Imagine that the LRM's which has been kinda offlimits to lights can actually be used by them? That would lead to a better game without a doubt.

[Fut]

Spleenslitta, on 11 March 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Please read the posts of others in this thread. They really make good points. Please just try it.
I was against it too but got totally turned around by posts #4 and #7 alone.

I have read the suggestions, and I still don't think it's a good idea.
These Mechs are usually handled by a crew of workers, repairing them and re-arming them... To have additional ammo simply appear in their bins while in the heat of battle seems silly to me - especially if all they have to do is stand next to some ammo crates on the ground.

I also don't think that any free coolant flushes should be given to Energy users.

What I'm really hoping for in this game, is that CW introduces "Extended Engagements" where you must fight through multiple battles with one mech - all damage and ammo expended during the Engagement carries through to each new battle.
This would make ammo precious, and perhaps even quite scare in the later parts of the battle - if people are too trigger happy.

Something to note, all of the Mechs I run are dependent on Ammo of some kind for their main weaponry (AC, LRM, SRM) - and I don't want mid-game ammo re-arming.

[Spleenslitta]

Fut, on 12 March 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

I have read the suggestions, and I still don't think it's a good idea.
These Mechs are usually handled by a crew of workers, repairing them and re-arming them... To have additional ammo simply appear in their bins while in the heat of battle seems silly to me - especially if all they have to do is stand next to some ammo crates on the ground.

I also don't think that any free coolant flushes should be given to Energy users.

What I'm really hoping for in this game, is that CW introduces "Extended Engagements" where you must fight through multiple battles with one mech - all damage and ammo expended during the Engagement carries through to each new battle.
This would make ammo precious, and perhaps even quite scare in the later parts of the battle - if people are too trigger happy.

Something to note, all of the Mechs I run are dependent on Ammo of some kind for their main weaponry (AC, LRM, SRM) - and I don't want mid-game ammo re-arming.

We might disagree but i like your suggestion about "extended Engagements".

But thing is that these reloads would not be without risks. Being forced to remain shut down for a long period while reloading is a huge risk if there is an enemy infiltrator.
Imagine a guy that has such huge amounts of ammo on his mech that he has to remain shut down for a full minute to reload.

And not that i'm a canon police type but right now the game is not according to canon. The huge amount of ammo we load onto our mechs is...well you know.

It's realistic to load enough ammo to last through the battle, but i would much rather have more available tonnage for other things.
Such as additional firepower, heatsinks, bigger engines and all those goodies.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 12 March 2014 - 10:43 AM.