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Why Use An Lb 10-X Ac?


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#81 Mr 144

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 12:38 AM

so...considered me inspired by Mad Panda :)

I decided to waste some C-bills on the LBX again, and ran THIS out of sheer boredom. It was actually quite fun. I'm pure pugging right now...so always a scrap-shoot on impressions, but I did OK...had quite a few 600+ 3+ kill matches with it....could I run a 'better' build? probablly...but after the so many matches, diversity is refreshing :P

Modules = Siesmic, and both coolshots

Edited by Mr 144, 05 October 2013 - 12:39 AM.


#82 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:09 AM

I like that variant I may try it

I am addicted to the torso busting power of the 3x

#83 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:32 AM

OHHH MAN

I just tried that

2x LB10
PPC
2x LB10
PPC
2x LB10
PPC

The barrage you can sustain is incredible I may use this for a while

#84 LordBraxton

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:17 AM

Long Barrel
LongBow
Large Bore
Light Ballistics

I see all these names

I always assumed it was

Luxor Ballistic AC10, and the X stood for experimental, like all the mech variants that end in X, none are production models.

I forget though... I thought luxor invented them but IDK

Edited by LordBraxton, 05 October 2013 - 07:18 AM.


#85 TygerLily

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:28 AM

LBX is also good because it's spread means you can take less time trying to aim a shot...a little more twitch fire. I run 3 LL and an LBX on my Heavy Metal and I do pretty well. The energy melts the armor at good range and the LBX wrecks the open spots (that combo is also light enough to run a max standard).

#86 DeadlyNerd

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 07:32 AM

because 2 LBX10 can fit in a side torso, while 2 AC10 cannot. Whoever uses those 3x LBX10 ilyas is either trolling or plain stupid.

#87 Ghogiel

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:10 AM

View PostLordBraxton, on 05 October 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:


I forget though... I thought luxor invented them but IDK

I thought it was Luben or something like that. But yeah along those lines.

#88 Strum Wealh

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:30 AM

View PostCaptain Stiffy, on 03 October 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

For the record the "LB" in LB 10-X is "Large Bore"

View PostZyllos, on 03 October 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

The "X" also usually means "extended range".

View PostTincan Nightmare, on 03 October 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Not to be too much of a {Noble MechWarrior} (but what the hell I am) I'm pretty sure it stands for Lubalin Ballistics, the original developer of the weapon. Course you may have known that and just been making a play on words, but I get a cheap thrill when I get to throw information of little import out into the internet.

The weapon's original designation was "Lubalin Ballistics 10-X autocannon", and it was introduced for use on the 60-ton Champion BattleMech (as described on page 34 of Technical Readout: 2750).
More specifically, "The Champion's weaponry consists of one Lubalin Ballistics 10-X autocannon, one Harpoon-6 short-range missile launcher, a pair of Magna MkII Medium Lasers, and two Martell Small Lasers."

The "large bore" nomenclature came from a German fan organization/magazine called Mechforce Germany.
As a non-canonical source, it "doesn't count".

More recently, Era Report: 3062 (on page 104) used the phrase "class-ten light barrel, extended range automatic cannon" as merely a description of the weapon, rather than an actual designation.
More specifically, "The class-ten light barrel, extended range automatic cannon was a breakthrough in autocannon technology when it was first introduced, and the Clans were able to further refine and deploy the technology in every autocannon class."

The idea is that "LB"/"LB-X" (from "Lubalin Ballistics") has since become the generic trademark (that is, "a trademark or brand name that has become the generic name for, or synonymous with, a general class of product or service") to represent "BattleMech-scale shotgun-like autocannon, including those produced by other manufacturers", in much the same fashion as "Aspirin" and "Heroin" (originally trademarks of Bayer AG), "Escalator" (originally a trademark of the Otis Elevator Company), "Zipper" (originally a trademark of B.F. Goodrich), and so on.

As such, Tincan is most correct on this point.

----------

View PostZyllos, on 03 October 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

So why is the LBX considered a shotgun by PGI if it's an extended range AC?

What the LBX should be doing is firing a flak canister that bursts when within X meters from a solid object in front of it's flight path, releasing it's pellets out in a spray. What this does it let the LBX have further range than a regular AC at the expense of being spread out and terrible against armored locations. But hit unarmored locations, you have a pretty good chance of destroying equipment there.

The LB-X family of ACs is, and has always been, a family of "shotguns"; nearly every canonical source published over the last three decases has described the LB-X as "an anti-BattleMech shotgun" or "acts/acting like an anti-BattleMech shotgun".

Much like the real-world M1028 canister round used by the Abrams MBT (among others), the LB-X Cluster rounds (along with the Flechette rounds used by standard ACs (and described on page 208 of TechManual)) "fragment at muzzle exit" (or, to use the terminology used on page 08 of TRO 2750, "after being fired").
The difference is that LB-X submunitions are explosive in nature (that is, more like impact-detonated bomblets or grenades), while the submunitions of the Flechette rounds are inert (that is, more like conventional shrapnel).

By contrast, only the Flak rounds used by standard ACs (and described on page 352 of Tactical Operations) are explicitly described as using a proximity sensor to trigger a post-muzzle-exit detonation.

As such, PGI's "shotgun-like" implementation of the LB-X Cluster rounds is both true-to-BattleTech, and fine as is.

If anything, what the LB 10-X needs is the ability to fire LB-X Slug rounds (which should act like conventional AC rounds) in addition to LB-X Cluster rounds, as well as some ability for the player to manually toggle between the two.
With the "viability"/"competitiveness" of the AC/10 (versus the LB 10-X) being a concern, the dual munition system could be implemented by forcibly including both munition types (at as close to a 1:1 mix as practicable) within each ton of LB-X ammunition - that is, each one-ton increment of MWO LB 10-X ammunition (a total of 15 rounds) would contain either [7 Slug rounds & 8 Cluster rounds] or [8 Slug rounds & 7 Cluster rounds], with the two munition types never being available separately; this would give the AC/10 greater "pinpoint damage capability" per ton of ammunition, while the LB-X would essentially be feature-complete while maintaining its traditional characteristics.

#89 Cimarb

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:50 AM

What Strum said - I don't know if it is 100% accurate, but that's a lot more research than I have put into most real-life discussions, lol.

#90 General Taskeen

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:28 AM



LB-X were always long range with clusters in every Mech Warrior game. MW3 fired the pellets in clusters, but had no spread. MWO copied MW:LL cluster spread mechanic without doing two of the following things -> 1. keeping long range as an advantage (example, an LB 10-X fires out to 700m in MW:LL, even though it is spread out, all your pellets hit the target you are shooting at); 2. increasing damage per pellet, which is how it has been balanced in every Mech Warrior game ever.

People argue over the semantics of the LB-X being a "shotgun" in the same way you can read sentences on sarna that will tell you the MG is for "anti-infantry" or another page that will tell you, "effective as AC/2 at close range" or "melts back armor in seconds." Just because something described in Battletech is "shotgun-like" (the keyword is LIKE, let that sink in) does not automatically mean it behaves exactly like a shotgun you fire with your hands. It is not even the same as a realworld tank Flechette round - why? Because Battle Tech already has flechette rounds, which are different than cluster rounds.

You know why it is contradictory? The LB-X became known for being incredibly (doubly) effective, with cluster rounds, at taking out aircraft in Battle Tech, because they were better than early Autocannon "flak" rounds. Literally the way it is imagined in MWO, it would be the worst Anti-Aircraft gun in existence in any real-world or Battle Tech sense. Autocannons in Battle Tech, are more or less, a stream of bullets like modern autocannons.

That being said the LB-X is bad in MWO, compared to any other Mech Warrior game. In the same way that NARC was way more useful in previous games, but is not in MWO. I call this process MWO-ified™ or MWO-ification™. Basically when something receives that status in the game, you can be sure it isn't anywhere near as useful or better to use as you may been used to in previous games.

Edited by General Taskeen, 05 October 2013 - 10:31 AM.


#91 Paul McKenzie

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 07:25 PM

View PostCharons Little Helper, on 27 September 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Yes - they do crit internals like machine guns - a slightly better % chance I believe.

They also have less heat than an AC10 - making them one of the most heat efficient weapons in the game (not to mention 1 less ton/slot).

And of course they aren't as good as 2 AC5s - 2 AC5s weigh 5 more tons and take up more space and an extra hardpoint.

LBXs aren't amazing - but they're very viable for brawlers. I keep 2 on my atlas - and it's the only mech I've broken 1000 damage with.

Your having broken 1k damage with this mech only high lights the fact that you are doing damage to mechs instead of killing them. Perfectly placed 1k damage should kill more than an entire team. You probably only killed three that match though.

#92 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostPaul McKenzie, on 06 October 2013 - 07:25 PM, said:

Your having broken 1k damage with this mech only high lights the fact that you are doing damage to mechs instead of killing them. Perfectly placed 1k damage should kill more than an entire team. You probably only killed three that match though.


You need to go play it awhile and form an informed opinion.

#93 Mcchuggernaut

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:13 PM

Well, I have done a a ton of experimenting with the LB 10-X since I posted this topic after people began claiming that it was a viable weapon when run in pairs on an Atlas, and might be better than an AC/20. I started running two on my Atlas D-DC just to see what the fuss was all about, and here are my personal findings:

It can hit targets at a much greater distance than I can with an AC/20. This comes with a downside. You are doing a good bit less damage to single parts on a mech, and missing entirely with some of the pellets, especially at the limits of the LB 10-Xs range. I often had comparable matches DAMAGE-wise to matches where I ran an AC/20 or a combination of other autocannons (Due to greater range and fire-rate. I discuss fire rate further down), but the damage was always spread out more over my enemies, and I ended up actually disabling or killing fewer of them.

When considering heat generated, the dual LB 10-X setup was amazing. I could fire it as fast as I could all day long and not generate any appreciable amount of heat. Heat-wise, a dual LB-10X setup is better than an AC/20. The AC/20 doesn't generate much heat either, though.

Fire rate was another area where dual LB 10-Xs shined. They recycle a good bit quicker than an AC/20, which is why I often put up comparable damage numbers for the two weapon systems. Again, this came with the downside of most of the damage not being pinpoint damage, and some pellets outright missing my target at longer ranges.

Ammo capacity was also better than the AC/20. You got more shots per ton of ammo, so it isn't as big a deal if you miss some shots. Problem is, you NEED those extra shots, due to the other downsides of a dual LB 10-X build.

Finally, there is the space taken and weight used. The AC/20 build is just better in both categories. You save 8 TONS, and 2 critical spaces with an AC/20. That's a big deal when you are trying to squeeze the best performance out of your build. You can use the extra space and free weight for more ammo, and more and better secondary weapons. This is a HUGE plus for the AC/20.

In conclusion, the LB 10-X just can't compete on an Atlas when you have the option of an AC/20. In a one-on-one dual with two builds with equal armor using the two weapons setups, the AC/20 Atlas will be in your core long before the LB 10-X build. I gave the LB 10-X setup a fair chance, and it just isn't as good. Even for killing lights, as some people touted it. Sure, you are a bit more likely to HIT a light, but as small as they are, you are spreading the damage all over them, instead of actually doing crippling damage to say, a leg, or their core. You really wanna' compete, then use the AC/20 and get to be a good shot with it.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 06 October 2013 - 11:16 PM.


#94 Sephlock

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:19 PM

At the moment LBX is good for a few things:

1: Peppering multiple enemies at once when they are very close together (say, when randoms are cluster******** around a corner) and netting you lots of assists (assuming your team is any good).

2: They are reasonably good at damaging un-armored parts of a mech. I don't know if they're good enough to justify taking them over ac/10s because i stopped really caring a while ago, but...

#95 Mcchuggernaut

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Posted 06 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

View PostSephlock, on 06 October 2013 - 11:19 PM, said:

At the moment LBX is good for a few things:

1: Peppering multiple enemies at once when they are very close together (say, when randoms are cluster******** around a corner) and netting you lots of assists (assuming your team is any good).

2: They are reasonably good at damaging un-armored parts of a mech. I don't know if they're good enough to justify taking them over ac/10s because i stopped really caring a while ago, but...


Forgot to mention the LB 10-Xs higher crit rate on unarmored targets. Problem is, it doesn't really matter enough to warrant a mention anyway. Crit rates are not a game-changer right now, imo. As for peppering multiple enemies, that isn't going to disable anyone. Your just spreading damage all over people instead of taking mechs out of the fight, which is what wins matches. And if you want assists, you could just as easily drag a laser across a group of enemies. What you say IS true about the weapon, but also kind of worthless gameplay-wise. I think to make the LB 10-X worth taking and still balanced, they need to cut it's range to very short and buff the damage per pellet. That way it would be a great choice for close-range brawling, but not useable at range, giving it a good niche role.

#96 Sephlock

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:21 AM

View PostMcchuggernaut, on 06 October 2013 - 11:30 PM, said:


Forgot to mention the LB 10-Xs higher crit rate on unarmored targets. Problem is, it doesn't really matter enough to warrant a mention anyway. Crit rates are not a game-changer right now, imo.


They are when you are adopting the optimal pugging strategy: hiding like a craven coward and swooping in when enemies' armor is stripped.

Quote

As for peppering multiple enemies, that isn't going to disable anyone. Your just spreading damage all over people instead of taking mechs out of the fight, which is what wins matches. And if you want assists, you could just as easily drag a laser across a group of enemies. What you say IS true about the weapon, but also kind of worthless gameplay-wise.

Yeah but if you want a long range assist factory in a ballistic slot, it's either ac/2 or lbx :D.

*I'm struggling mightily to justify using LBX here :D*

Quote

I think to make the LB 10-X worth taking and still balanced, they need to cut it's range to very short and buff the damage per pellet. That way it would be a great choice for close-range brawling, but not useable at range, giving it a good niche role.


Wouldn't that put it in competition with the AC/20?

#97 Cimarb

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:00 PM

View PostSephlock, on 07 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:


Wouldn't that put it in competition with the AC/20?

Not really. If the ten pellets each did 1.5-2 damage, it would still be a spread-fire weapon, meaning you may do a couple damage to several hitboxes. The ac20 is a single-point weapon, meaning 100% of the damage is in the same hitbox. Huge difference.

#98 Mr 144

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:03 PM

View PostSephlock, on 07 October 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

They are when you are adopting the optimal pugging strategy: hiding like a craven coward and swooping in when enemies' armor is stripped.


Coming from both sides of the fence, I think this is a two way street. Every group loves pug fodder, but yet every group complains about them as well. I find when I pug, it's more often than not, I'M the one leading the push...even with a known 4-man at my back. Premades usually will not commit until they know there is some sacrificial pugs to sponge some focus fire first. If anyhting, Premades are far more cowardly than pugs...good reasons to be so, but none-the-less, rarely the 1st to commit.


Quote

Yeah but if you want a long range assist factory in a ballistic slot, it's either ac/2 or lbx :D.


Sure, as a pug wracking up the assists is nice...ad the LBX excells in that use as one shot to a group can net an easy 3 assists.

What I ask myself is, in most pugging situations, could I have done better with the optimal load-out...both C-bil, and team contribution. If I get 600damage, tons of component destructions, 3 kills and 6 assists with my 2xPPC, 2xLBX Ilya...what more use do you expect out of your pugger when you're running a 4-man? If I went to an optimized build, I now require optimal positioning and teamwork to beat that...something inherently lacking while pugging.

Right now, my dual LBX and dual PPC Ilya is by far my best C-bill farmer, AND overall team contributor while pugging. The LBX is a crapola weapon on paper for sure, but 'right tools for the job' kinda over-rides that for me.

#99 Sephlock

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:20 PM

View PostCimarb, on 07 October 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

Not really. If the ten pellets each did 1.5-2 damage, it would still be a spread-fire weapon, meaning you may do a couple damage to several hitboxes. The ac20 is a single-point weapon, meaning 100% of the damage is in the same hitbox. Huge difference.
That would make it inferior to the AC/20. Spread damage is poopy.

View PostMr 144, on 07 October 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:


Right now, my dual LBX and dual PPC Ilya is by far my best C-bill farmer, AND overall team contributor while pugging. The LBX is a crapola weapon on paper for sure, but 'right tools for the job' kinda over-rides that for me.

If you don't fill that third ballistic slot with a third LBX, you are dead inside :D.

DAKKA!

#100 Mr 144

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Posted 07 October 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostSephlock, on 07 October 2013 - 12:20 PM, said:

If you don't fill that third ballistic slot with a third LBX, you are dead inside :D.

DAKKA!


yeah, but that puts me into either selfish 'high-damage I must be uber' pugger, or optimal team conditions to succeed. The mix of high shoulder mounts to pot-shot the PPCs and contribute combined with 'clear terrain' alpha use is imho the best mix of good C-bill and viable team contribution. I ran the UAC/PPC combo for quite a long time, but time on target kills it while pugging...AC/10's just don't fit...so LBXs it is. It works...It's fun...It combines pin-point with spam...and it's pretty self-sufficient.





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